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24 May 2007 @ 01:57 pm
Honesty  
The last couple of days have been a roller-coaster of emotion, fandom-wise, for me. My apologies to anyone I owe comments to; I'm more than a little behind.

The dust settling, I've recovered my zen about Katee Sackhoff's comments on Kara/Lee. Without dismissing Katee's comments out of hand--which I really did not want to do because I greatly respect her as an actress. One of the reasons I found her comment so difficult to process was because I'm a very logical person--and as indigo419 pointed out 'there's a confusion between logic and love' in Katee's comment. To quote Indi again: 'one can love a person regardless of who else might be 'better' (more adult, less volatile...) for you.' That sums up BOTH pilots perfectly for me. And I suspect it was what Katee was trying to express as well. Jamie has expressed an almost identical opinion on occasion (an ISOLATED occasion! *g*)--saying he felt Dee was the healthier option for Lee and from that point of view he'd rather Lee ended up with her. But he also acknowledged that love is not logical. And that's been proven more than true this week in the ensuing kerfuffle in BSG fandom! I think many of us have been searching for a logical solution to what is, in fact, an emotional issue and needs to be resolved on that level.

Having had so many people comfort me, I decided to repay the favour a teenie bit at sasa_hq (which is loads of fun, by the way--many other comforting pilot-y things can be found there!) by posting this tongue-in-cheek manifesto: Hope in Hardship.

Other things making me happyful?! THIS ICON! Seriously. It pleases me on multiple levels. No really! Oh, ok, fine: it's just hot! ;-)

Also, I've been blown away by the reaction to Southside. It makes staying up all night to finish it 100% worthwhile! I was pleased with it at a personal level, but I had no idea so many other people would enjoy it. And I am so grateful for the feedback. (You are going to have to kick my ego back down to size if you keep this up!)

Now a bit of Heroes-related honesty from me: my reaction to the finale was probably coloured more than a little bit by my already very cranky mood. Despite my best efforts to get my venting re. Katee's comments over with before the finale, I did watch it while fuming. ;-) And the fact that they (seemingly) nuked my favourite character did not go down at all well. Nathan and Lee under attack on the same day?! Not pretty for Boppy! But as it turns out Nathan is alive. That's all I know. But I was astonished at my own relief on finding this out--evidently, despite my proclamations that the show is flawed (and I still do believe it is), I'm still more emotionally attached than I thought. I'm prepared to admit when I'm wrong. I stand by my comments that it relies too heavily on plotting, that its writing is poor and that the finale was predictable. But ... hey, who am I kidding? I'll probably still watch next year--especially if Nathan shines and Peter gets his scar! ;-)
 
 
Current Location: work (sadly)
Current Mood: hopefulhopeful
 
 
 
wisteria: bsg - kara/lee - cute pilotswisteria_ on May 24th, 2007 05:03 am (UTC)
I should really be in bed, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to reply to your e-mail, but big hugs to you for this and for all that wackiness tonight. ;)

pilotlove > everything.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 05:08 am (UTC)
*snuggles*

pilotlove > everything
Truly!

Sweet dreams!
the plucky young girl who helps the Doctor: apolloalissabobissa on May 24th, 2007 05:42 am (UTC)
Not to ignore the majority or your post (for I, too, am finally at peace with the whole Katee Comment Debacle, and I should be asleep now), but I just wanted to say that your icon pleases me on the most basic level. So hot! :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee owns Karabop_radar on May 24th, 2007 05:51 am (UTC)
I think fixating on the icon and ignoring the rest is an ENTIRELY appropriate response! ;-)

I loves it SOOO much. *fans self* It was made by starbuck92 from this very impressive icon post.
Dionusia: lee's stealthy mmmdionusia on May 24th, 2007 05:54 am (UTC)
I had it first. That tongue is sticking out at you in a pout! :P Just kiddin'. I love the fact that we love the same icons.

I only finished half of my SASA essay (sigh). But I too am zen about the Katee comment. I realized last night that I my investment in L/K is in no way dependent upon interviews by the actors or TPTB. I hope that doesn't come off as too dismissive of KS' views...I do think I understand her reasoning for saying what she said, and though I don't agree with it, but I respect her opinion.

Anyhoo, I'm not surprised people loved your vid, it was stunning. Although I'm still hoping to see that Leecentric one sometime. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee =(bop_radar on May 24th, 2007 05:58 am (UTC)
That tongue is sticking out at you in a pout!
You mean like this?! Seriously, though--this icon needs to be EVERYWHERE. I love that we love the same icons too.

my investment in L/K is in no way dependent upon interviews by the actors or TPTB
Same! I have come to this conclusion as well. I don't think that's dismissive--it's just saying that their opinions exist in a different realm and don't impact the way you enjoy the show. We're saturated with that stuff in this 'information age'--sometimes it can actually be too much.

I'm still hoping to see that Leecentric one sometime. ;)
Heee. *giggles nervously* Er, yeah, I'm getting WAY nervous about that now! I feel like I will be letting everyone down by torturing them with Leemo after this upbeat fun vid, you know?! But I will overcome this because Lee needs to be vidded! It is my mission! ;-)

Dionusia: lee face :(dionusia on May 24th, 2007 06:03 am (UTC)
Wonder twin Lee pout! (I saw you snagged the "no cookie?" one too -- I was seriously torn over which one to use!)

I feel like I will be letting everyone down by torturing them with Leemo after this upbeat fun vid, you know?!

That is a very Leemo thing to say and I completely understand the feeling of fret that sets in. ;) However, I feel compelled to predict that no one will feel let down. Yes, Lee vidding is thy sacred mission.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 06:09 am (UTC)
I saw you snagged the "no cookie?" one too -- I was seriously torn over which one to use!
SAME! Hahaha! We totally both swooped on the same post, didn't we?!

That is a very Leemo thing to say and I completely understand the feeling of fret that sets in. ;)
Hahaha! Yes. We shall see... *smoulders, Lee-like, in a corner*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee secret weaponbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 06:10 am (UTC)
PS. We can get over this thing of snagging and using the same icons by wonder-twinning everywhere! Double the impact of the icons! ;-) \o/
Dionusia: lee's stealthy mmmdionusia on May 24th, 2007 06:29 am (UTC)
Dude, I am so down with wondertwinning all over the joint. I never get tired of a) Lee scruff b) Lee scruff with flirty tongue. :)

Oh yeah, and my SASA essay was heavily inspired by that comment thread we had going in your poll post, BTW. I can't help but think about it all in terms of my own relationship! I think I should keep that out of what I write as much as possible, but it's hard. I've definitely been thinking about why I'm hung up on those two a lot lately, esp. with my own anniversary last weekend. A sign of true L/K obsession, no doubt!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee secret weaponbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 06:37 am (UTC)
I am so down with wondertwinning all over the joint. I never get tired of a) Lee scruff b) Lee scruff with flirty tongue. :)
AWESOME! Good to hear! *wondertwins*

I totally want to head over and read your SASA essay and comment and all... I'm so behind! Eeep! I was saving it for this evening.

And you know I sympathise about analysing one's attraction to K/L based on one's own relationship. I think it's hard because inevitably our own experiences with love and friendship and conflict influence the way we view the Pilots... I like self-awareness so I push myself to be self-aware about those things, but it's also important to be able to separate them clearly. Oh, I'm tried and waffling...
Dionusia: lee's stealthy mmmdionusia on May 24th, 2007 09:11 am (UTC)
Quad Lee!

Well, the first part of the essay is nothing much new, so I wouldn't get your hopes up. *g* We talked about most of it before, esp. about the scene in "Final Cut." However, it does set up something for part II rather nicely, hope.

Is it wrong that I want to apply evidence from research studies on marriages and relationships to these fictional characters?

I'm tired too. I feel a yawn of destiny coming on.
smact46smact46 on May 24th, 2007 07:18 am (UTC)
your lover can be your best friend at the same time...
I hope you don't mind I posted a similar version of this comment on Latte's journal, but I wanted to expand upon it after reading yours.

Re “I actually think that Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee (some audience members make sounds of disappointment) I think that it’s a very confusing thing. She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is. So I really think that she, truly as an adult, is in love with Sam.”

I too agree with you, but my views are probably informed by my advancing years and by my upbringing I guess. I was the eldest child in a family of 3 children, a largely absent father and a mother recovering from the death of her first born and subsequent episodes of postnatal depression. I grew up pretty fast and tended to be a pretty serious, isolative kid. I had friends at school, but nothing too deep. We also moved a lot so forming relationships of any depth was always tricky ( I think that's why I love the internet so much now. When I met my partner, we were friends first. He was my best, probably my first true friend, the person I wanted to be myself with (the good and the bad) - I am pretty good at putting on my "game" face. We then became friends "with benefits" ( because he was and still is gorgeous - I couldn't resist) until we finally realised that there was no one else that fit for either of us. It's been a rocky 17 years, but I still think of him as my soulmate and he is still the first person I want to tell anything to that is of any importance to me. And yes, I feel for me “ that's the best and rarest kind of love. When you know someone that well, you have a sort of verbal shorthand, you understand what influences their thoughts and actions,” and maybe that is really what has drawn me so much to this ship.

Re Katee'attempts to quantify love ...Katee might have had different experiences with love and friendships to me though. More varied and positive than I maybe. Maybe she has had relationships modelled to her that value the kind of “adult companionship side of things” that Sam has offered more. How does one quantify what it means to be adult anyway? It is hard to tell really from her brief comments. And it was all in a pretty lighthearted setting wasn't it. I think that Jamie is a little more eloquent when he refers to Lee's relationship with dee (saying he felt Dee was the healthier option for Lee and from that point of view he'd rather Lee ended up with her) but he also refers to Kara as the love of his (Lees')life, while ackowledging that love is not logical.

And I also agree with Latte having skimmed through some of Katee's older interviews. Katees comments have been so different (re who Kara loves.. eewww Baltar!) in different interviews and depending on when and what she was filming, (Wonder if she has been following any of this?),but she has always talked about loving Lee.

I keep coming back to this comment though.....

"She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever,"

I wish we could what kind of relationship they did have pre cylon attacks. How long, when did they meet were they always attracted to each other? What about Zack? I was hoping that the pegasus movie might do some of that in flashbacks. Wishful thinking?


K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on May 24th, 2007 08:31 am (UTC)
Re: your lover can be your best friend at the same time...
I don't mind at all! On the contrary--that was fascinating and I might have missed it on Latte's journal. There's so much conversation all over LJ at the moment...

It's been a rocky 17 years, but I still think of him as my soulmate and he is still the first person I want to tell anything to that is of any importance to me. And yes, I feel for me “ that's the best and rarest kind of love. When you know someone that well, you have a sort of verbal shorthand, you understand what influences their thoughts and actions,” and maybe that is really what has drawn me so much to this ship.
That's so inspiring! I really appreciate you sharing this. I'm not sure if you ever so my poll on archetypes and how we are drawn to them and whether they relate to our real-life relationships/preferences?

Maybe she has had relationships modelled to her that value the kind of “adult companionship side of things” that Sam has offered more. How does one quantify what it means to be adult anyway? It is hard to tell really from her brief comments.
Maybe! I find that a very compelling argument. Because I think ALL of us--fans, actors, characters--make different assumptions about love and its many different forms based on out own experiences--not just IN relationships but the relationships we've seen others model.

Myself, I'm an only child of a broken marriage and relationships certainly haven't come easily. I know I always longed for the type of complex, multi-layered, 'soulmate'/best-friendship love that Kara and Lee have. I even envy their sibling-like aspects--I always wished I had a brother. So I envy them in many ways. Funny thing is, my own relationship mirrors Sam/Kara or Dee/Lee far more! I guess my 'Kara' just never came along... Because I think you are absolutely right when you say it is the rarest kind of love--I don't believe everyone finds it. And I think that's also why it's so awesome to see in fiction--vicarious living!

it was all in a pretty lighthearted setting wasn't it. I think that Jamie is a little more eloquent when he refers to Lee's relationship with dee (saying he felt Dee was the healthier option for Lee and from that point of view he'd rather Lee ended up with her) but he also refers to Kara as the love of his (Lees')life, while ackowledging that love is not logical.
Absolutely! I get the impression Katee's comments were more impromptu and Jamie's more thought-out.

How long, when did they meet were they always attracted to each other? What about Zack? I was hoping that the pegasus movie might do some of that in flashbacks. Wishful thinking?
I think LOTS of us would love to know that. I'm a spoilerphobe so I know nothing about the movie and what it might cover. And I'm never been sure we'd ever find out. But I, for one, am very curious about that.
smact46smact46 on May 24th, 2007 12:54 pm (UTC)
Re: your lover can be your best friend at the same time...
I must admit I hadn't come across your survey. The last couple of weeks at work have been a little rough and all consuming. I would still like to do it though, just for my own interest if that is ok. It is rather clever of you. I love the idea of looking at archetypes and personality. I just read an article today about the psychology of atheism that made me think of Lee (and myself). It touched upon elements of attachment theory and abandonment during childhood by the father figure. Really interesting. Made me think.

Thanks a lot for your considered responses.I really enjoy these conversations.

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee's farewellbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 01:01 pm (UTC)
Re: your lover can be your best friend at the same time...
Oh, yay! You are very welcome to take the poll now and to discuss anything... I really enjoy those sorts of conversations too.

about the psychology of atheism that made me think of Lee (and myself). It touched upon elements of attachment theory and abandonment during childhood by the father figure. Really interesting. Made me think.
That sounds fascinating! There are a lot of reasons why I identify strongly with Lee--atheism is one of them, distant father figure, depression issues--the list goes on! ;-)


smact46smact46 on May 24th, 2007 07:31 am (UTC)
re your lover is (can be) your best friend at the same time...
edit of previous post:
After this quote,
Re “I actually think that Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee (some audience members make sounds of disappointment) I think that it’s a very confusing thing. She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is. So I really think that she, truly as an adult, is in love with Sam.”

I actually meant to start my post with this..."I too agree with you (and Indi) that love isn’t logical and we do not always get to choose what we think is the “healthy choice” because of what we “feel”,"

Sorry. It has been a long week.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara Lee no usbop_radar on May 24th, 2007 08:34 am (UTC)
Re: re your lover is (can be) your best friend at the same time...
No worries! It really has been. I'm still pretty sleep deprived..

love isn’t logical and we do not always get to choose what we think is the “healthy choice” because of what we “feel”
So far, if I think of what we've actually seen on the show, and ignore the actors' comments for now, I think we've also been shown that the choice that appears to be 'healthy' or 'safe' is not always the best or the easy course it appears to be. Things get hard and complicated there too. And the show's also implied that if a competing love (of best-friends-first) exists, it will be in tension with the 'safe' choice and create conflict.
smact46smact46 on May 24th, 2007 12:47 pm (UTC)
Re: re your lover is (can be) your best friend at the same time...
Yes!!! And I think that that is one of the best things about BSG. It is more refletiv of real life. 'Cos it can be really hard. I like to quote Logan from Veronica Mars here.... they don't write songs about the ones that come easy... or something like that. I've just got home after a nice pasta and some red. MMMM.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on May 24th, 2007 01:03 pm (UTC)
Re: re your lover is (can be) your best friend at the same time...
Yum!! And yes, they really don't write songs about the easy ones! ;-) (Because the easy ones are boring. )
Kate: Heroes Petrellismskatej on May 24th, 2007 10:36 am (UTC)
I have no idea what Katee said, but it sounds like I don't want to!

And I think it's nice you're sticking with Heroes, if only for Nora's sake. (I still won't be, because I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns. Although I am glad that Nathan isn't dead because he was my favourite character too.)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee =(bop_radar on May 24th, 2007 01:03 pm (UTC)
You know, LJ is so glitchy that I STILL haven't got this comment! *pouts*