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26 October 2007 @ 12:37 pm
BSG: Razor flashbacks  
I don't know why I delayed watching these. Maybe because the first one broke my brain. But I'm definitely enjoying these more than the Occupation webisodes. Maybe because there's more flying. :) I think they're doing a really good job of showing how much trauma Bill endured in the first Cylon war and how the way he responded to it turned him into the man he is today. I'm not the biggest fan of Adama Senior, but I'm definitely interested in his character, especially in contrast to his son, and there's lots of great material here.

He IS a lousy liar, but I thought it was very Bill-like to try and lie to her. Perhaps he got a quick lesson here in why that's not a good idea--she sees through it. But he sort of got validated for trying to make her feel better (she thanks him anyway) which might help explain why he still loves the pointless gesture--like making Kat CAG before she dies. While I do see that that sort of thing gives some people comfort, I really don't think it works for everyone.

The actor's doing really well, I think. He's obviously studied EJO's delivery and intonation because his 'battle' voice was uncannily accurate. Also: blue eyes! Wow, are they blue. :) I liked his moment of focussing before launching (as he watches JC carried away). It was very Lee-like to take that reflection moment but his attitude coming out of it was all Bill. I don't think Lee would vocalise quite the same way. 'Let's do this' almost made me laugh, it was so melodramatic--you can see the slow-clapper that he'll become showing there. ;)

In other ways I thought there were a lot of similarities with Lee--especially in the third flashback. Something in the precision of his 'break left on my mark' was very Lee, even though his voice sounded totally like EJO. He was very focussed under pressure and he had a hard edge to him, even despite (or because of) what he'd just seen. His response to shooting down his first toaster was pretty restrained, which I thought was interesting--it sets him apart early on from typical hot-headed pilots eager for combat. I also thought it set up nicely his response to seeing the Columbia destroyed because it provided a contrast: it's that that really leaves him shocked and he quickly finds a focus for this, ignoring his CAG's orders. He gets reckless and that reminded me of Lee who've we've seen at his most 'showy' and aggressive when he's got nothing left to lose.

In the light of much discussion about Lee and heroism, the line 'Don't be a hero, Adama!' was meta heaven. Yup, once again the issue of the thin line between heroism and stupidity/endangering a mission comes up again. Yay! It seemed totally characteristic of Bill to pay no heed to that warning, and again there were echoes of his son too in the way he talked to himself, but whereas Lee has to talk himself into or out of situations, in Bill it sounded more like bullish determination, less insecurity.
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Dionusia: apollo sky bluedionusia on October 26th, 2007 07:44 am (UTC)
He IS a lousy liar, but I thought it was very Bill-like to try and lie to her.

Whoa, great insight! Heh, I confess I was mostly distracted by the spot on EJO mimesis by the Young Adama actor, as you pointed out...

I think he reminded me of Starbuck as much as Lee, what with the showy solo stunts. But you make fascinating points in regards to the parallels with the actions of his son.

In short, I love Boppy meta! Even on these teensy clips, the analysis is thoroughly enjoyable!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee concentratingbop_radar on October 26th, 2007 07:52 am (UTC)
There are definitely parallels with Starbuck too. In general I tend to think of Bill and Kara as two of a kind in terms of their decision-making, and it's borne out by his focus and flair in flashback 3. But ... well, I have Lee goggles so it's hard for me not to compare father and son.

And thanks! It's good to have something to meta again!
The First Evil: Lee and Adama - Inlovewithnightasta77 on October 26th, 2007 12:24 pm (UTC)
I've been drawing more comparisons to Kara than Lee and seeing the similarities has helped me understand better Adama's closeness to and affection for Kara. Up until recently he has forgiven her quite a lot for her actions and behavior and it seems it may be because he's 'been there, done that' himself and probably was right more often than wrong.

I also thought the chasing of the Cylon fighter and getting shot down on a presumably deserted planet was very reminiscent of AoC/YCGHA.

But he sort of got validated for trying to make her feel better (she thanks him anyway) which might help explain why he still loves the pointless gesture--like making Kat CAG before she dies.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Good point!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on October 26th, 2007 12:49 pm (UTC)
*nods* The similarities to Kara are very striking but I guess they weren't a surprise to me as much as the similarities to Lee.

Up until recently he has forgiven her quite a lot for her actions and behavior and it seems it may be because he's 'been there, done that' himself and probably was right more often than wrong.
*nods* I agree... although I maybe still need more convincing that he's actually right. ;) I think they're two of a kind though and I can definitely see why he cuts her slack. Even as a young man he was evidently very sure of his own decisions, even when they went against orders. It adds a lot of resonance to the relationship, particularly things like the card from her in her personnel file with the 'see the similarity?' line.
daybreak777: billy adamadaybreak777 on October 26th, 2007 08:35 am (UTC)
Yay, more BSG meta! I really liked the last clip but it's been so quiet on the Razorzode front.

I don't have much to say since they are so short but yay, vipers! Gosh, I miss vipers.

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on October 26th, 2007 12:45 pm (UTC)
Has it? Quiet? Yeah, maybe that's partly why I haven't been rushing to watch them. Odd. I am all bouncy over them now though and will keep up to speed in the lead-up to Razor. :D

Horrendously, Razor is scheduled the weekend of our general election so I may be late to that party. *mourns in advance*
m_a_r_i_k_s: staringm_a_r_i_k_s on October 26th, 2007 01:26 pm (UTC)
Interesting thoughts here, Boppy, thanks for sharing :)
I've been also enjoying the flashbacks so far.

I'm not the biggest fan of Adama Senior, but I'm definitely interested in his character, especially in contrast to his son, and there's lots of great material here.

I can't help comparing some small details in his behavior with Lee's. Most of the fans agree the casting choice for young Adama's role is great, me included. I don't know why but the second flashback especially made me think of Billy's relationship with _his father Joseph at the time he made Lt. in the military service... and it made me remember Lee's first appearance aboard the Galactica, how edgy he was blaming Bill... how full of hope for mankind and idealism, relatively stable definitions of what's right and wrong. So here I ask myself what made Bill join the military in the first place? We know they didn't get along with his father either. Was it a personal rift because of some family business or was it some kind of ideological disagreement? - We know Joseph was one of the finest lawyers, Romo implied he had to defend the dregs of society, total scumbags... maybe this was one of the reasons, could it be that the son didn't really understand and accept his father's fascination in studying "why people do what they do" the way Joseph considered most efficient?
Or maybe it's just my fantasizing, but I wouldn't be surprised to know that Bill also had "I don't want to become like my father"-issues and decided to take the most opposite path, to be a soldier and defend those who were really worthy of survival. Lee's choice may have had similar background but his performance differs drastically: same battlefield as his father's but the aim is to prove he can be something different but just as valuable and approved... and then.. Lee's always have a very pronounced need of his father's approval no matter how thoroughly he's been hiding it, I doubt young Bill was just as dependent.

He IS a lousy liar, but I thought it was very Bill-like to try and lie to her. Perhaps he got a quick lesson here in why that's not a good idea--she sees through it. But he sort of got validated for trying to make her feel better (she thanks him anyway) which might help explain why he still loves the pointless gesture--like making Kat CAG before she dies. While I do see that that sort of thing gives some people comfort, I really don't think it works for everyone.

Well there was some lying on a much bigger scale from his part - don't forget he lied about Earth whereabouts to the whole Fleet for the greater good, hope. So this is really in character and not just a gesture in his eyes, it's a right thing to do. I don't think he wasn't sincere when he told Kara he didn't regret anything he said or did when she accused him of lying.


It seemed totally characteristic of Bill to pay no heed to that warning, and again there were echoes of his son too in the way he talked to himself, but whereas Lee has to talk himself into or out of situations, in Bill it sounded more like bullish determination, less insecurity.

Exactly, Lee would try to persuade himself in the right of the decision - Bill is more straight, he has less space to thoughts and hesitation while Lee's inner dialog is much stronger.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on October 27th, 2007 07:31 am (UTC)
what made Bill join the military in the first place? We know they didn't get along with his father either. Was it a personal rift because of some family business or was it some kind of ideological disagreement?
Ohh, interesting speculation!

could it be that the son didn't really understand and accept his father's fascination in studying "why people do what they do" the way Joseph considered most efficient?
Mmm, yes, like you I can imagine Bill being in a situation of rebelling against his father. One thing I was intrigued by was Romo's final hint that Joseph wasn't always the amazingly principled man he'd made him out to be: when he was saying goodbye to Lee he said 'unlike your grandfather'. That's a loose thread I wonder if they'll ever follow up. But perhaps Bill knows something that casts his father in a not so great light and so he had reason not to respect Joseph's lifestyle decisions. Perhaps particularly when they were at war? After all, that would be a pretty different situation--the social pressure to enlist would be huge.

he lied about Earth whereabouts to the whole Fleet for the greater good, hope. So this is really in character and not just a gesture in his eyes, it's a right thing to do. I don't think he wasn't sincere when he told Kara he didn't regret anything he said or did when she accused him of lying.
Great point--I couldn't agree more. And we know that Lee has ambivalent feelings about his father lying, so it's no wonder I didn't really like seeing it here. I guess it's always been part of his instinctive personality. And it seems to work as a leadership characteristic for most people most of the time. I just... don't care for it personally. ;)

Bill is more straight, he has less space to thoughts and hesitation while Lee's inner dialog is much stronger.
*nods* I'm glad someone else saw that too.
Allison: kidsfrolicndetour on October 26th, 2007 04:13 pm (UTC)
Ron said on one of the podcasts (Act of Contrition, iirc) that the reason Adama and Kara are so close is because he was very similar to her in his youth. And also that Katee and EJO have a very similar relationship, which is even cooler. The whole "hotshot kid" thing, where right from the beginning Olmos was like "where did you find her??" So cool!

I don't read as much in to Adama lying to his girlfriend, though. When someone is in a situation like that, fighting for their life, it's really important for them to have hope. I think any responsible person in that situation would say "you're going to be fine" or some version thereof. You definitely don't want to tell them that they look horrible, they're probably going to die or at least be horribly disfigured - especially not when they're bleeding all over the place and probably in shock. (Or maybe that was just bad acting. ;)

The actor's doing really well, I think. He's obviously studied EJO's delivery and intonation because his 'battle' voice was uncannily accurate.

Word! I just can't believe how Nicco Cortez manages to remind me of Jamie Bamber and EJO at the same time, when their being related is one of the more credulity-straining aspects of the show! ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee disagreesbop_radar on October 27th, 2007 07:21 am (UTC)
I don't read as much in to Adama lying to his girlfriend, though. When someone is in a situation like that, fighting for their life, it's really important for them to have hope. I think any responsible person in that situation would say "you're going to be fine" or some version thereof.
Ohh, but there are different ways of giving hope and being supportive in a situation like that. Personally I really really hate it when people try to give me obviously candy-coated versions of the truth. If I'm dying, I want to know I'm dying. I also want someone to reassure me that I'll be looked after, that they'll get the frakkers who did this to me and that they love me... but being told I'll be back on my feet in a day or two? Would just make me want to punch the person.

I don't think it's particularly awful of Bill because it was the first time (presumably) he'd been in a situation like that. But these webisodes put his personality under the microscope and his behaviour there wasn't really my type of leadership--though I know it works for some people. I think it's a point of difference between him and Lee. Lee is far more likely to want (and to understand others wanting) to look the full darkness of a situation straight in the eye. His way of offering other's support is to be there for them physically, to have their backs, to remain calm himself or to acknowledge that yeah, it's fair enough to be flipping the frak out right now because you really are screwed: personally that kind of leadership plays a lot better to my personality type. ;)

when their being related is one of the more credulity-straining aspects of the show! ;)
Hahaha, yup! I'm in awe of his acting. The two men have never seemed closer in terms of body language, intonation and delivery.
Allison: kidsfrolicndetour on October 27th, 2007 09:31 pm (UTC)
If I'm dying, I want to know I'm dying.

I took it that he didn't know whether she was dying, so he wanted her to focus on the positive. I guess I've seen that scene so many times: "You're gonna make it, Charlie," "Don't kid a kidder, Joe," that I'm wired to expect it by now.

I think it's a point of difference between him and Lee.

Have we ever seen Lee in the equivalent situation though? The closest I can think of is with Kara in Maelstrom, and there he reacted in a very similar way. At least, his telling her that he trusts her eyes more than dradis seemed at odds with what he said in private to Adama. Though, I don't condemn him for that because I think if he'd said "yeah, I think you've gone batshit -too bad you're only good at one thing huh," it would have been pretty bad. :P

btw, did you see the last Bionic Woman? I thought it was better - maybe because they contrived an excuse for Ryan to use her natural accent. But I thought the writing was half-decent as well. Am I crazy? Is that possible? Or maybe you've given up by now. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on October 27th, 2007 10:06 pm (UTC)
I guess I've seen that scene so many times: "You're gonna make it, Charlie," "Don't kid a kidder, Joe," that I'm wired to expect it by now.
Yeah it was following the cliche, and I think that's also because Bill's style is definitely indicative of that kind of 'typical' brave-soldier approach. Yeah, he may not have known she was dying but it was still a lousy lie. ;)

At least, his telling her that he trusts her eyes more than dradis seemed at odds with what he said in private to Adama.
I don't think that's an equivalent because I think Lee made a conscious deliberated decision in advance to trust Kara. He had to go one way or another and with his father he expressed his doubts but I think when he talked to her he had convinced himself that she wasn't batshit. Yeah, it was a conscious tactical decision, but it came across honestly because he really believed it. So perhaps it does come down to Bill just being a lousy liar. ;)

Though I do think that it ties, as m_a_r_i_k_s points out above into a much broader capacity of Adama's for lying to reassure others. And while we haven't seen Lee in the same sorts of positions because he's not got that kind of power, he's definitely uncomfortable with all that 'face' stuff (his reaction to Adama announcing they knew the way to Earth was mixed at best, he was really cut up by watching him accept the medal in Hero, etc).

I haven't seen the latest BW. I've been dragging my heels about it because it's been so painful. But that sounds promising! *perks* I'll have to check it out!