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12 March 2008 @ 07:29 pm
Unfinished Business: the extended version  
So the internet fairies delivered me the extended version of Unfinished Business, and since it's been so very long since I had anything new to chatter about with BSG, I'm eager to talk about it. Anyone else seen it yet? Be warned, though, that my reaction is highly shippy--this being the K/L-shippiest episode of all time, it was kinda unavoidable. ;)

First let me say that I *loved* the short, edited version of Unfinished Business and I'm not that surprised to find that I still greatly prefer it to the longer version (I love good editing!). In some cases,I'm very glad that the extra footage didn't make the cut, in others I'm delighted that the scenes were at least shot/scripted. The extended version is very revealing, but it left me with far more conflicted feelings than the short version did.

Before I get to pilots on their own, let me first say: poor Dee! She always gets her scenes cut, and this is a case where her side of the story got cut out almost entirely. Adama's call about her needing the fight too was really tragic in a way: the fight turned out to be the last thing Dee 'needed'. I think this version makes everything--the fighting, the frakking, the marrying--a FAR bigger screwover of Dee. And it makes it obvious long before TAB that Lee was in major, major denial and his attempts not to 'lie' to Dee are farcical. While that's always been suggested, it doesn't make for pleasant watching to have it spelt out like this.

On a lighter note (sort of!), Lee's reaction to Dee showing up at the dance made me total LOL. Which is terribly mean to Dee, but oh, man, that is NOT how you want your husband to greet you. He looked oh 'oh, damn, why are YOU here'. And his awkward hug seemed to be totally avoiding a direct kiss, even before he blew her off for Kara. I couldn't help wincing at how far gone Lee was in that moment--he seemed not at ALL cut up about turning down sex with his wife for a fight with his ex. It was worse than that--because there was no guarantee the dance would go on long enough for them to fight again: one of their tags had to be drawn out. So it made it seem like Lee had committed to the bout just as much as Kara had. In the edited version, I think that was less obvious.

I'm very glad that most of the dialogue between Dee and Lee didn't make the final cut--it was too overstated, especially the story about the boys that used to beat Dee up. But at least it showed that Dee's not stupid--and she was trying to get Lee to talk about the situation, only he just wouldn't admit anything. Even before she explicitly asked him not to, she was making it pretty hard for Lee to step in the ring with Kara, because by saying 'your fight is about passion' the minute he did so, it was a betrayal of Dee. Lee, of course, was wrapped in about ten layers of denial. When he says that Kara's just been pissing him off... well, that is ALSO true, but it's definitely not the whole truth. And apparently the whole room knew it.

The extended version does clear up the mystery of why Dee wasn't phased by Lee not coming to bed with her that night. I kind of thought she must have known about the field, but it seems she didn't. It also seemed to be suggested that she was piecing things together after Kara dropped the line about having 'been there done that'. She thought there was UST between Kara and Lee and was worried it was unresolved, but then she learns that there's more of a history than she thought. Adding to the sting is the fact that it was Dee who encouraged Lee to stay out that night, and who commented that she'd never seen him so happy. Dee is actually a LOT more clear-sighted about the whole situation than Lee, who later mentions the happiness that he's experienced with Dee: Dee herself knows that pales in comparison to the way he glows around Kara.

Until the proposal scene between them, I really wasn't finding a lot of their interaction revealing. But I actually found the proposal scene itself very powerful. (Don't die of shock!) This scene really shapes the entire Lee/Dee marriage and I think it would have made more sense to viewers if it could have been left in. It makes Kara totally right to call Lee on being a hypocrite. If she 'ran' then so did he; she did so in response to intimacy, he did so in response to rejection. It's all transparently obvious in the scene with Dee. Lee is jittery and all over the place, he can't compose himself and he's rushing to excesses that don't actually hold any weight. He as much as says 'Kara got married, so i may as well marry you now... I'm trying to put the best spin on this as I possibly can'. Oh, Lee! *buries face in hands and despairs* Dee can see that and she calls the situation COMPLETELY accurately. I've never really warmed to Dee as a character, but I do respect her for that. When she said 'you love Kara Thrace', Lee looks so startled--you can see him thinking 'how does she know about last night?' and panicking. Dee's completely right--the two of them are 'linked somehow' and one day Kara will be back.

This scene gives confirmation of Dee's own motivations in the marriage. Her line reflects Roslin's about 'living every day as if it's the last'. She's taking what she can get, while she can, even if it's not perfect. However, she also sends Lee into a massive guilt spiral here. Not undeserved, perhaps, but also not at all healthy or helpful. She says she'll love and cherish him despite knowing he loves Kara. That doesn't leave Lee any way to be honourable and I think it really hurts him that he can't return her love exactly. He's still struggling with Kara's rejection--he seizes on that when Dee says 'when Kara Thrace comes walking back'. For him, he's trying to absorb the fact that it's totally over with Kara. But when he catches himself arguing with Dee, I think he realises a moment too late that what he should be saying is not 'Kara's not coming back' but 'I love YOU'. It IS easier for both of them to kiss in that moment than to keep arguing and dealing with the painful truth.

Lee's going to cop a lot of crit for all the lying he does in this episode. Even from me. He basically acts like a total shit and he uses denial as a coping mechanism. He tries desperately to compartmentalise, telling himself that his realtionship with Dee is NOT about Kara in any way. But it's transparently obvious that it was always a reaction to Kara. Ouch. He had to stay in denial to make the relationship work, but as soon as that was broken down (in the dance) it all fell apart.

Final note on Dee: Gaeta really should have taken her by the arm and whisked her away from the ringside. Symapthetic glances not enough!

Tongue-in-cheek question: Does Kara ever have sex with the person she's actually having sex with?! ;) Flashing to the Kara/Lee field sex during the extended version of the Kara/Sam sex made it far more explicit that she wasn't really connecting with Sam in that moment. I'm not quite optimist enough to believe we were really meant to think Kara was consciously thinking of that moment but evoking it still added a lot more weight to Sam's 'maybe I'm not what you really want' call. I liked the extended dialogue between Kara and Sam for a couple of reasons: firstly because it made Sam seem less of a pushover and secondly because the extra Kara dialogue seemed revealing to me. Her line about not trying to change Sam's mind read to me like a line she'd prepared in advance--because Sam wasn't talking about his mind in that moment, he was talking about hers.

The moment when Kara catches sight of Lee in the ring was far more powerful in the edited version, but I think in this version there was a few extra seconds of her actually clapping the fight, which I liked. And she looked so playful bouncing into the ring. It also seemed just as obvious, if not more so, that she came to the dance to pick a fight with Lee or that she decided on that course of action pretty fast once she turned up.

I was interested to see the extra Lee/Helo moment after their fight. It made them seem a lot more amicable and made it explicit that they respect one another. I always wondered about their fight, about who picked it and how much animosity was there before and after it, because those two clashed a number of times in Season 3. This tips the scales back towards them being on 'buddy' terms.

The scene I really loved was Kara and Anders with the Tighs. Omg, how lolarious! Kara was adorable with her 'they're not going to be friends, are they?' (no honey, but they ARE going to be Cylons!) and her freaked-out eyes at Ellen making an overt pass at her boyfriend. Oh, Kara, you're too cute.

And wow, turns out Sharon's a better gal!pal than I realised. Hearing her bring up Lee with Kara was somewhat startling because Kara/Lee are so rarely acknowledged by other crew mates but she was right on target: Kara was definitely conflating. Also, the dialogue seemed to indicate that Lee met Kara when she was already with Zak. Hmm. What it really got me thinking about though was what mistakes Kara thinks Lee has been making 'since the day he met me'. At first that line made NO SENSE to me at all. Was she complaining that he'd made moves on her? or that he hadn't? I tried both readings and decided that it was a complicated combination of both that made no logical sense but made sense in Kara!brain. ;) The line ties with Kara's call about Lee not knowing 'when to make his moves and when to hold back'. (But when IS that, Kara? could you give him a guidebook, because it sure as hell isn't clear to me!) Kara's anger seems to be twofold: she's ostensibly angry at Anders for being too possessive, but it's hinted in the field scene that she wishes Lee had been able to admit he needed her earlier. I guess that's the paradox: Kara wants to be needed/loved, but she also hates being 'trapped'. (Ok, someone come tell me if I've read Kara completely wrong.)

When Kara took Lee on the tour of her house, Lee saying 'don't jinx it' really hit me in the gut because I feel like HE jinxed it by saying 'Kara Anders' and because I think he meant it genuinely at that moment... only they're both about to ruin four people's lives. *wibbles*

But this scene had me all up and down emotionally, because on the other hand I liked that Kara played up the innuendo with the bedroom--it was a bit more of a come-on then we'd seen from her in the edited version and helps explain how Lee got the courage up to make a move. It was so obvious from his behaviour that he was jealous, that he didn't think much of 'pyramid boy' and that he wished that house was his.

I liked Kara's vulnerability in the 'got anyone in mind, Lee?' moment. But I thought the shorter version, sans applecarts, was more romantic. (However, I'm torn, because Lee casting himself as applecart-upsetter is kind of adorable.)

One thing I didn't like: the longer version made Kara's screamed love declaration far more of a dare. Lee's little line about her being 'afraid' would have totally goaded her into it, regardless of what she truly felt. So I was all busy feeling upset about that, and then...

SHE SAID IT. SHE SAID IT FOR REALZ!!!

Hearing Kara ask Lee if he was sure she was what he wanted totally startled me--so many Kara fans have told me she was genuinely anxious about his feelings, but it's usually so hard for me to see that. So I really appreciated seeing her actually ask him. And as if that wasn't enough SHE SAID SHE LOVED HIM. USING THE FIRST-PERSON PRONOUN. NOT JUST AS A DARE! *squeeeeeeeeee* I never dared believe she'd really said that to him. I am SO glad (even if it made the next morning more painful). I see why Jamie mentioned this moment of the pilots being honest with each other as one he would have liked left it. Apart from anything else, they mentioned ZAK! I'm very glad about that because I do think he was a shadow between them for so long. But I am also glad that Lee's dialogue showed that it wasn't just Zak that held him back, it was also his own fear. And then when Kara answered him it seemed like she recognised that feeling herself--it felt like she found a way to understand Lee a little better maybe, because she had fears of her own. I was surprised by how gentle she was with Lee, and how forgiving she seemed in that moment. It made it really seem like she'd wished he'd made a move earlier but had been too afraid herself to do anything about it--which makes a stronger parallel between both of them.

And as if the 'I love you too' was not enough, we got another little smile from her afterwards as they kissed and she relaxed in his arms. That TOTALLY matched the smile in his arms at the end of the fight! *more squee*

Watching Unfinished Business this time was a different experience for me even without the longer version, simply because I happen to be in quite a 'Kara-y' mood/place at the moment. I'm not sure why, except that I've been missing her. And my first reaction to seeing her in UB was 'omg, I'd forgotten how awesome you are!' despite the fact that she was frakking over Lee. So even her ultra-bitchy comments in this didn't really bother me. I giggled at 'Hold that thought, ok?' in response to Lee screaming 'motherfrakker' at her. She's so damn infuriating and so damn adorable all at the same time!

The Tigh scene, which I already knew about, was actually better in execution than it sounded on paper. I thought Katee brought a lot to that scene--she made it seem a lot more natural than I thought was possible. Like the Dee stuff, I am glad they cut it because I think it was overstated to have her reflect on 'survival instinct'. But I do think the fact that she came back to town and got a taste of 'reality' would have made the night before seem surreal, like something that couldn't be trusted.

And ok, I STILL don't completely understand why she ran from Lee. However, I think the heart of it has got to lie in the different sources of fear for Kara and Lee. Lee's fear is of rejection--he'll do anything to avoid it. But once Kara accepted him and his love for her, his fear evaporated. Presumably that's when Kara's fears were most kicking in. If it's not rejection she fears, it's intimacy? expectations?

From a boxing pov, I really liked the line 'did I break the rules?' as an acknowledgment that Kara did play dirty in that fight. But Lee's response shows it didn't really matter--the entire fight was outside the parameters of the 'dance' and he knew all bets were off. I rather liked Lee having the guts to call her on the fact that she ran, that her action was self-protective, that she's always closed-off.

With the extended fight, I find myself with the same conflicted feelings I have about the whole extended episode: on the one hand, I liked the extra material because it did add something to the picture. But on the other hand, I found the short version far more powerful and effective. Even more 'romantic' in a way. I liked the idea of a non-verbal 'fight to a standstill'. But it was impossible not to grin at 'why? so you can hit me some more?' (And pssst, Lee, that's what you need to do: HANG ON SO SHE CAN'T HIT YOU ANY MORE! Physically OR emotionally!) Also, I really loved Kara saying 'I think things just got more complicated'. It made an even clearer parallel to their post-coital scene in the field. And I loved Lee's hysterical reaction to her saying that. I SO thought he was going to kiss her. But then his giggle could have been a 'oh shit, I might just wind up hurting her nose more, if I try that' as well as a giggle at the sheer frakked-up-ness. It was somehow cathartic to see them collapse together, but I really wish Dee hadn't still been there. Having them end in a tumble on the ground though reminded me of them nearly suffocating together.

Dee is right. They are tied together somehow. And I wish they'd just accept how much they need each other already!

Oh, show! Come baaaaaaaaack, I missshhhs you!
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Nicole Anell: battlestar galacticanicole_anell on March 12th, 2008 12:37 pm (UTC)
Haven't seen the extended version yet, but this post is some fascinating meta, thanks. Honestly I've never been a fan of UB and I don't really get any of the characters' motivations in it, but this certainly clears some things up.

I'm looking forward to the extended version for the silliest of reasons, that I want to see Kara interact with the Tighs and Sharon, and I want more Dualla in the quadrangle.

Does Kara ever have sex with the person she's actually having sex with?!
Hee! Not if there's flashbacks or boxing involved.

And my first reaction to seeing her in UB was 'omg, I'd forgotten how awesome you are!'
LOL! I miss my show and Kara *so much* dammit.
The First Evil: Lee - suit - profile - starpolloasta77 on March 12th, 2008 12:43 pm (UTC)
As I just replied to Bop, I was no fan of this episode the first time around and less so now. I'm still trying to get my thoughts straight, but tune in next week when I become an unpopular person in fandom. ;)
(no subject) - nicole_anell on March 12th, 2008 04:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dionusia on March 12th, 2008 04:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 12:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 01:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nicole_anell on March 13th, 2008 03:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 04:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 06:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nicole_anell on March 13th, 2008 01:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 12th, 2008 08:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
a reason to fight: BSG - L/K -Holding Hands/Breaking Heartsareasontofight on March 12th, 2008 12:39 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen the extended episode yet, but I couldn't resist reading your comments anyway - what little willpower I do have evaporates when I'm at work and bored. :) Any idea where I'd be able to find it on-line? DVDs always take forever to get to the UK from Amazon.com and I don't think I can last that long.

What I was hoping for from the extended version was a little more from Kara's pov. Something showing why she ran from Lee other than just her fear of intimacy, of giving herself completely to someone she truly loves. And it sounds like we get a little of that so I'm happy. Not so happy about it painting Lee in such a bad light, because he gets enough crap from fandom as it is. But I think I like the blame being more evenly balanced between the two of them.

The fact that we get a real 'I love you' from Kara is amazing - that will make everything else worth it I think. *squee*

I'm never sure with BSG - are deleted scenes canon? The ones in UB must be right, since we get them in an extended episode and not just lumped together as an extra...?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Kara proofbop_radar on March 13th, 2008 12:03 am (UTC)
Yeah, I was in the same boat with waiting for DVDs as I'm in Australia. I've seen torrents up for the extended eppy. I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find one for you. :)

We do see a little more from Kara's pov, and she comes across more sympathetically in the extended version, but I still struggle to understand her motivations. (dionusia summarises them very well below though!)

Not so happy about it painting Lee in such a bad light, because he gets enough crap from fandom as it is.
Tell me about it! I get so sick of the Lee-bashing, and this ep won't help. I love Lee to bits and what I see here only made me feel more for him, but it's definitely Lee at his least noble.

I think I like the blame being more evenly balanced between the two of them.
I found I really liked that. It makes it much more obvious that they were BOTH heavily in denial and relying on 'fight or flight' responses. Having Lee propose to Dee so fast after Kara proposed to Anders makes the two marriages even more clearly paralleled.

The fact that we get a real 'I love you' from Kara is amazing - that will make everything else worth it I think. *squee*
It did for me. ;) Seriously, nothing could have made me happier! :) It's a really good one too. I was always so worried she only said it because Lee dared her too and she's Kara Thrace and can't appear chicken about anything. But this one comes after they've opened up to each other and even my Kara-doubting heart can't see how it's anything but genuine. (If only genuine in that moment... it seems like the next morning she shut down on those feelings again.)

I think I came away from the extended version feeling surer that Kara really did want Lee--that was an unexpected bonus.
(no subject) - areasontofight on March 13th, 2008 11:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 11:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - areasontofight on March 19th, 2008 10:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 20th, 2008 08:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Lee - close-up - wurlockeasta77 on March 12th, 2008 12:41 pm (UTC)
I've seen it too. ;) I'm going to print out your post and read it later. I don't feel I can respond right now. I'm still processing what I watched (and the vast amount of notes I jotted down). I didn't much care for the episode the first time around and now I find I have massive issues with the extended cut. It's odd because in some ways I do feel that the extended version is better, it certainly helps to clarify what people were thinking and feeling and why they made the choices they did. Kara I believe is put in a better light, I certainly sympathize with her more than I did before. But Lee and Dee I'm really struggling with at the moment (as well as some general plot points involving other characters) and until I get my feelings sussed out I think it's best to not let other posts influence me. I will say I don't think I'm going to be the most popular person in fandom next week. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on March 12th, 2008 08:41 pm (UTC)
I pretty much knew you'd hate it. ;) And I'm a big believer in not influencing your own posts by reading too much else before hand, so I won't say much here. And don't worry about not being popular: I don't think many people will like the longer version more than the short one. I can certainly see why they cut a lot of this out, but on the other hand it frustrates me because there were some necessary 'missing pieces', I think, leading into the quadrangle: most obviously with Dee.
(no subject) - asta77 on March 13th, 2008 04:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on March 12th, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)
Main question being why Kara got up and married Anders - that just doesn't make sense to me. Not even fear of intimacy makes it make sense??
Wrong person to ask, I'm afraid! Kara baffles me. My go-to girls for Kara meta are wisteria_ and daybreak777. There are a few things that do help make a bit more sense of it: in Razor, Lee as commander ordered Kara to sacrifice her life for the mission. So while they're still in the same chain of command, there's always that danger that they'll be in a situation that demands something similar again. Also, Kara fans tell me Kara still had guilt about shooting Lee and has a deep-seated fear of reliving her Zak experience (i.e. being responsible for his death). I guess those things add an edge to her fears.

the infidelity to Dee/Anders makes me sad, but I have to admit I got all warm at heart at the end of the episode when Lee says he's missed Kara - awww :o(
Hee. I'm glad it made you 'aww'. It was Kara's 'misshed' that made me 'aww' because I'm so totally in Lee's perspective. It seemed too good to be true first time round, and still makes me glow now, on about the 10th rewatch.

Roslin and Adama are cute, arent't they?! With the getting stoned and flirty. Hee!
(no subject) - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 12:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 03:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 10:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
latteaddict: Heaven islatteaddict on March 12th, 2008 01:27 pm (UTC)
weee, I've been waiting for the posts to pop up. I've seen it too and already have my review typed up. I think I'll post it now before I go to bed so hopefully tomorrow we might be able to discuss a little about how we both interpreted the ep. But it's late right now and I want to re-read what you wrote before I comment. You definitely brought up a couple of things I didn't realise. Catch ya tomorrow, girly!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on March 13th, 2008 03:33 am (UTC)
Heee! We are spamming each other with comments. *g* I don't think you quite asked for the mega-essay I just sent you. Oops! *bites lip* I really want to reply to your comments below but must work. Damn work! More tonight...
(no subject) - latteaddict on March 13th, 2008 05:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
Zoi: bsg-bright3gomez on March 12th, 2008 01:33 pm (UTC)
I had promised to myself that I would stay spoiler-free about anything BSG before I see it,but I try too hard on S4,so a little extended S3 glimpse is allowed.I am that good.

May I say your meta is extremely interesting...I am now anticipating the viewing even more.
One thing I never was sure about is:what are we to consider canon now?The extended edition or the cut we actually saw on tv(or should just keep the good parts of each?)?I am a fan of tight,well-edited episodes myself.

Glad for the light on Kara's actions.I hope some of the Kara-bashing will slow down now.But I expect tons of bitching about Lee...poor kid,whatever he does,someone will find something wrong.Not sure I'm anticipating that.

And from what you've writen,I don't think I will feel more sorry for Dee.I admit I'm not the biggest fan of her character(what I liked best was her interaction with Billy) but I always felt for her because she got hurt,stuck in the middle of the most frakked-up love story in history,and because no woman deserves getting cheated like that.But I feel a lot more for Sam,as he was ignorant_while Dee seems(from what you've said)like she knew EXACTLY where she was throwing herself into.Yet,she still chose to be with a man she knew didn't love her.HUGE MISTAKE.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on March 12th, 2008 11:56 pm (UTC)
Ah, yes! I understand the long wait for S4...

Re. canon, well, opinions are divided. I'd say there's definitely more of a case for the extended version of UB being canon than for deleted scenes from other eps. I tend to have a pretty inclusive view and I generally accept deleted scenes as canon except where they directly contradict the edited version (this doesn't often happen on BSG).

But I expect tons of bitching about Lee...poor kid,whatever he does,someone will find something wrong.
I know. :( I got it out of the way fast in my review. He's certainly not a noble figure in UB, but I find completely human and sympathetic nonetheless, and I won't apologise for that. Very few of the characters in the BSG 'verse are wholly likeable--they just have a different set of flaws.

I feel a lot more for Sam,as he was ignorant_while Dee seems(from what you've said)like she knew EXACTLY where she was throwing herself into.Yet,she still chose to be with a man she knew didn't love her.HUGE MISTAKE.
Well, yes, it does make it clearer that Dee knew what she was getting herself into (whereas Anders didn't really). But in one way I liked that because it gives her more agency, she's not just a 'victim'. We might not agree with her choice or be inclined to make it ourselves, but it was hers to make. It does help explain why she stayed with Lee even once she knew he was seeing Kara again. I always found that a bit hard to understand--but if she knew from the start that she might be facing that and thought it was worth it anyway, well, who am I to judge? I can kind of see where she's coming from. The speech in extended UB really helped with that: she talks about the fact that they could die any day and that she just wants to live her life to the fullest while she can. Obviously a relationship's a big part of that to her, and sure it's not perfect, but (apparently) it's better than nothing.
(no subject) - 3gomez on March 13th, 2008 12:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 03:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Dionusia: l/k don't want CAG therapy kthanxdionusia on March 12th, 2008 04:33 pm (UTC)
Hahaha, WT, I may be kinder in my heart to Lee than even you are! It's not that I'm not frustrated with his behavior, it's just that I think both pilots are so very full of it and both so deep in denial, it makes it easier for me to understand Lee and Kara's lies because they are so obviously lying to themselves foremost. Lee does it because he'd always had to be in denial about Kara (suppress his feelings not only because of Zak, but because of their profession) and the upheval of being rejected like that after the most vulnerable and happy moment of his life put him into a kind of emotional shellshock. He was so desperate to get back to that state of denial, to thinking that all his chances of happiness weren't wrapped up in a woman who'd just dashed all his hopes, that he couldn't even see how stupid and reckless and horrible he was being in his proposal to Dee.

Kara lies to herself because it's easier for her to blame others and put on a show of anger than it is to admit how much she might need love (or be needed and valued by others). This ep really spells out how much she fears being close to anyone, and it tracks not only in her rel. with Lee but also with Sam and even Kacey. It's so sad that she can't feel like she could really be loved by Lee that much ("Are you sure I'm what you want?" I think is more reflective of her own insecurity than Lee's lack of action before) and that she bolts even after they reach such a level of honesty with one another, but given her childhood, it makes a Kara kind of sense. Growing up, she felt love but also awful physical and emotional pain and rejection from the person she needed most. Thus the paradoxical feelings and actions, drawing closer and pushing back. Damn it. See, this is why I ship Kara/emotional stability above all else. She needs to get her head on straight (and so does Lee)!

Maybe I'm not so disturbed by this cut because I already knew about the frakked-up proposal scene (mentioned in a podcast). And I went through my frustrated-with-Kara phase after UB (although she wasn't so vicious in the version that aired; thank goodness her brutal outing of their frak to Dee was cut!) and I went through my extremely-frustrated-with-Lee phase after TaB (with much yelling at the screen). If I had seen this version those phases would have just overlapped.

I also think Dee is less of a doormat than I originally thought. (WTF, you are thinking. I know!) I mean to say that Dee's agency shouldn't be minimized in this situation. She made her choice and it wasn't blind. She went into this with her eyes open and accepted that she wanted to take as much happiness as she could, for however long it would last. I used to be mad at her for thinking so little of herself, for accepting that she was not as important as Kara but still wanting to be with Lee anyway; but daybreak777 encouraged me to see Dee as having very--well, human hopes, and she really does love him. Lee does see the light and recommits himself to Dee after TaB, and I'm glad. JB said in an interview that Lee's marriage was pretty good, even though it began for the wrong reasons. I feel like I finally understand what he meant there. I really do belive that Lee feels genuine love for Dee: she's stable, intelligent, beautiful, why wouldn't he want to turn to that? The tragedy of this is that there will always be this pull in his heart toward Kara in spite of it all, and he's not man enough to face that fully until after she's gone.

The temptation of wanting to just live in the moment and try to be happy is the theme of UB, not shippy feelings, although of course there is great overlap between theme and subject there. It's a story that could only be told within the frame of being back on Galactica, with the haven revealed as false and all hopes of paradise lost, with the personal and professional relationships back in a greater tangle, with Adama getting up and saying he never should have given them that chance to be simply human, because they paid the cost in lives. That's the sadness of it all -- they have to take up their burdens, but they will always be haunted by the shadow of the past. Poor souls. They still can't get their chance at normal.

Edited at 2008-03-12 04:35 pm (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC)
Part 1
Hahaha, WT, I may be kinder in my heart to Lee than even you are!
Not possible! Did I mention my heart?! My heart it still totally Lee's. I just thought people would get bored and throw things at me if I didn't mention what a shit he was. No-one wants to hear me say 'but I love him anyway' every second sentence--it goes without saying! ;) (Although that's what my BSG reviews are usually like!)

it makes it easier for me to understand Lee and Kara's lies because they are so obviously lying to themselves foremost
I absolutely agree with that. And I think this episode actually made it feel a lot more 'equal' between them. As you point out, they are BOTH deeply in denial, both conflating current partners with past ones.

the upheval of being rejected like that after the most vulnerable and happy moment of his life put him into a kind of emotional shellshock. He was so desperate to get back to that state of denial, to thinking that all his chances of happiness weren't wrapped up in a woman who'd just dashed all his hopes, that he couldn't even see how stupid and reckless and horrible he was being in his proposal to Dee.
Yup! That's a perfect description of what happened. Can I point people to it?! :)

Kara lies to herself because it's easier for her to blame others and put on a show of anger than it is to admit how much she might need love (or be needed and valued by others).
You know, I never was convinced that Kara DID lie to herself that much. So often all I see is 'surface Kara', the hard-edged tough pilot, but this episode definitely strips that back and proves that there IS more underneath and that she's in as much denial as Lee.

"Are you sure I'm what you want?" I think is more reflective of her own insecurity than Lee's lack of action before
Yeah, you're right... It does make me wonder though if all she really wants is SOMEone to love her, not LEE to love her. That moment definitely played as a 'how could anyone really want me?' moment. And with Sam she was all 'I won't change your mind'--as if she wasn't surprised that he was pulling away from her. What do you think it will take for Kara to trust someone's love?

Growing up, she felt love but also awful physical and emotional pain and rejection from the person she needed most. Thus the paradoxical feelings and actions, drawing closer and pushing back.
Thank you--that does make intellectual sense to me. It's just something I've got no emotional 'in' to, so I struggle to understand the way that works intuitively. Poor Kara. :(

I went through my extremely-frustrated-with-Lee phase after TaB (with much yelling at the screen). If I had seen this version those phases would have just overlapped.
Heee. You know, TAB didn't bother me that much. Because by then I'd worked out by extrapolation what we (essentially) see here in the extended version so it didn't come as that big a surprise. I just wished we'd seen it earlier. So I actually really liked the proposal scene (in a frakked up way)--I thought it was the strongest of all the cut scenes. And yeah, it hurt me and felt all twisted and wrong, but it WAS all twisted and wrong, so I'm fine with that reaction. And I don't actaully feel any anger at Lee at all--it's just not in me. I identify WAY too much with his actions, to the point of even thinking 'oh god, this is something *I* would do!' in the proposal scene. *hides face in shame*

Dee's agency shouldn't be minimized in this situation. She made her choice and it wasn't blind
Totally! I second that. It's one reason I wished the proposal HADN'T been cut.

Part II - bop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part II - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 06:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part II - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 07:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part 1 (a) - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 05:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part 1 (b) - dionusia on March 13th, 2008 05:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part 1 (a) - bop_radar on March 13th, 2008 07:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
jude_judith82: Lee Adamajude_judith82 on March 12th, 2008 04:36 pm (UTC)
Just a short response because I'm ambivalent about the episode. I didn't like but I didn't hate it eh but go on and enjoy your shippy heart because...

They are tied together somehow. And I wish they'd just accept how much they need each other already

Wiser words have never been spoken!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:11 pm (UTC)
Hee! Well, thanks. I was going to enjoy the long version no matter what I think: more Lee is NEVER BAD. :D And more Lee/Kara makes me happy even while making me wince at their frakked-up-ness.
brigantia_65 on March 12th, 2008 08:37 pm (UTC)
GAWD! I've missed reading your thoughts on this show.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara trustbop_radar on March 12th, 2008 09:12 pm (UTC)
Awww, thank you! :D I've missed talking about the show!
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on March 12th, 2008 11:51 pm (UTC)
And fair enough! :) There's no denying that Lee and Kara need to grow up.

Adama/Roslin does not much for me (and kind of squicks me) so I struggled through those scenes, but I could see they were great for those into the ship.
latteaddict: Heaven islatteaddict on March 13th, 2008 02:10 am (UTC)
one
I preferred the original too, but mostly because of its brutal emotional impact. But I’m extremely happy to have both versions.

it makes it obvious long before TAB that Lee was in major, major denial and his attempts not to 'lie' to Dee are farcical. While that's always been suggested, it doesn't make for pleasant watching to have it spelt out like this.

See, this is always how I’ve perceived their relationship anyway. Dee could be just about any woman and Lee would still be treating them the exact same way, trying to create a false ideal to counteract the negativity Kara has in his life.

And his awkward hug seemed to be totally avoiding a direct kiss, even before he blew her off for Kara

That was a golden moment. And again, is exactly how I think Lee really feels about Dee when it’s his instincts reacting instead of his sense of duty. I’m so going to exploit that moment in a vid sometime.

especially the story about the boys that used to beat Dee up.

I thought the dialogue in that was weirdly stated. Dee starts off telling Lee the boy didn’t push her down because she ‘pissed him off’, and then proceeded to tell Lee that it was secretly love masked as hate, and then Lee ends the conversation by saying Kara pisses him off. Um, shouldn’t Dee have realised that Lee just admitted to the love/hate of Kara?

Dee is actually a LOT more clear-sighted about the whole situation than Lee, who later mentions the happiness that he's experienced with Dee: Dee herself knows that pales in comparison to the way he glows around Kara.

Dee admitted the dance was the happiest she’s ever seen him. But she was also watching him dance joyously with Kara. If Dee’s so clear sighted then how come she didn’t connect that it was Kara’s presence which lifted the gloom from Lee? In all those ‘private tussles’ she has with Lee, wasn’t Lee ever as happy as what we saw when he was with Kara? The only time we’ve seen Lee and Dee get naked was in Captain’s Hand and Lee looked pretty down and subdued for a man who just got laid.

He as much as says 'Kara got married, so i may as well marry you now... I'm trying to put the best spin on this as I possibly can'. Oh, Lee! *buries face in hands and despairs*

I think the added ‘now’ was what made it even worse and more cringe worthy. But despite it all Dee still said yes to him. Dee pretended her speech was about supporting him but realistically both Lee and Dee were both being self serving. Lee was afraid to be alone and rebounding from Kara like I’ve never seen someone rebound before and Dee wanted to secure herself a future and was afraid to miss out on life, so being a strong woman and standing on her own until she found true love wasn’t an option for her. And if Dee is really supposed to be in love with Lee, I kinda don’t see how that’s possible. Because Lee has never emotionally engaged with her so they could start falling in true love. Dee’s love could be no more developed than say crushing on a movie star or something. She’s all about the ideals that Lee represents instead of Lee as a man because Lee the man has never opened up to her with any of his inner fears or secrets. Though, I’m completely aware that my take on Dee is a minority view and who knows, maybe season 4 will twist everything we knew or suspected on its head?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on March 13th, 2008 08:08 am (UTC)
Re: one
I’m so going to exploit that moment in a vid sometime.
Yeah, I can see you doing that. :p

Um, shouldn’t Dee have realised that Lee just admitted to the love/hate of Kara?
Yeah, I know. It was really clunky. I'm so glad it got cut. And Lee was so hopeless at getting out of that one!

If Dee’s so clear sighted then how come she didn’t connect that it was Kara’s presence which lifted the gloom from Lee?
I think she does--the next day she points out that he loves Kara. I don't think Dee's blind, I think she just trusted Lee.

In all those ‘private tussles’ she has with Lee, wasn’t Lee ever as happy as what we saw when he was with Kara?
Honestly? I can imagine him average-kind-of-happy, but not ecstatic-omg-my-soul-is-on-fire kind of happy. We've certainly never seen him letting go as much with Dee as he has with Kara (in their playful early season 1 scenes and then in their drinking and flirting together in Scar and UB).

realistically both Lee and Dee were both being self serving
Of course! Everyone in this situation is. Anders was. Kara was too.

She’s all about the ideals that Lee represents instead of Lee as a man because Lee the man has never opened up to her with any of his inner fears or secrets.
Well I agree with that--and we saw her walk out on him when he really put who he was on the line during the trial. She admits later she married him partly because of his father. I guess she just really wanted a relationship, liked being close to the Adamas, and loved the Lee she saw from the outside... and she thought that was enough. Maybe it WAS enough for her! She chose it, and she chose to end it.

maybe season 4 will twist everything we knew or suspected on its head?
Good grief, are they actually going to waste any time on her in S4?! <--meanest call ever! Sorry. It's just they've got so few eps left... I want them to focus on the big players like Roslin, Gaius... and Lee and Kara of course. Not faff around with cast members who they've always short-changed in the editing process--it's too late to fix that now.
Re: one - latteaddict on March 16th, 2008 06:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
latteaddict: Perfect Momentlatteaddict on March 13th, 2008 02:11 am (UTC)
two
but I do respect her for that. When she said 'you love Kara Thrace', Lee looks so startled--you can see him thinking 'how does she know about last night?' and panicking.

But, but..how are we supposed to respect someone that can see the truth but wilfully does nothing about it and actively makes a situation worse? And what type of woman marries a man she believes is in love with someone else? Dee was really looking out for herself and that’s actually in character for her because back in the day with Billy, she wasn’t prepared to let Billy go and find a nice girl to love while she tried to secure Lee. And I know it’s a harsh view but the show did portray Roslin mourning Billy and continuing to think about him after his death, but Dee happily submerged herself into her relationship with Lee. We never saw Dee conflicted after Billy’s death or take a step back from Lee so she could sort out her feelings. I’m not saying Dee has to be perfect, because heaven knows Kara and Lee are bigger frak ups than Dee but this weird little view that seems to permeate fandom that Dee is sweet and smart and noble and such a good person who should be respected really mystifies me. Dee bed-hops and social climbs and looks out for herself like the rest of them. She just does it with a smile and lipgloss. But what makes her actions worse to me is that she doesn’t have the excuse of high emotion to cloud her judgement. Lee was physically distraught when he proposed, Kara looked like she was about to cry when crouching above Sam the next morning but Dee is all very clearheaded about her choices and I guess her lack of passion and the deliberateness with which she does things takes away any compassion I could ever have for her character. Gee, sorry for the Dee rambling, I guess I wish her actions didn’t bother me so much and I could chill out about her like you and so many others.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee owns Karabop_radar on March 13th, 2008 08:15 am (UTC)
Re: two
And what type of woman marries a man she believes is in love with someone else?
I guess someone who doesn't think she's got long to live and who wants a relationship in the last little time she's got left--evidently it's a compromise she can live with. I agree that it comes across as a choice Dee actively made for her own reasons.

We never saw Dee conflicted after Billy’s death or take a step back from Lee so she could sort out her feelings.
I know. I really hate that too and it doesn't colour her in a good light. I don't know how anyone couldn't mourn the death of someone who you've only recently broken up with.

she doesn’t have the excuse of high emotion to cloud her judgement
I do know what you mean. It's like we were talking about in your journal--passion would make her a bit more sympathetic. But she's always so controlled. I don't want to got into Dee-bashing, because plenty of my friends like Dee, and that's great for them. I just don't find I've got an emotional connection with her character at all, and she has a few aspects that I really don't like.

I guess I wish her actions didn’t bother me so much and I could chill out about her like you and so many others.
Heh, yeah, I'm pretty calm about her. She doesn't excite me one way or other other--she's just 'meh' to me and always has been. But then she's stealing Lee from Kara. ;) I think that's what really works you up. :p I think I could like Sam a lot better if he wasn't Lee's rival for Kara. :) (Even so, I find Sam a more accessible character than Dee.)
latteaddict: Wanna do it againlatteaddict on March 13th, 2008 02:12 am (UTC)
three
And wow, turns out Sharon's a better gal!pal than I realised.

I was so surprised by their conversation.

Also, the dialogue seemed to indicate that Lee met Kara when she was already with Zak.

Maybe, but I think it could also be (not exactly sure) that Lee knew her first but never made a move until after she was with Zak, which is why she was so pissy and telling Athena that he was always making the same mistakes, first with Zak and now with Sam. And on a weird note, Lee got involved with Dee when she was with Billy and he got involved with Shevon when she was with...well everyone. I’m not a psychologist but I think that might be a clue that Lee pursues women who are already committed so there’s less chance of him getting saddled with one, but emotionally it wouldn’t be his fault when it falls apart. Or something that sounds more intelligent than that. But did you notice how shocked he was when Dee accepted his proposal. He’s like - you will? Why?

but it's hinted in the field scene that she wishes Lee had been able to admit he needed her earlier.

I was amazed we got that moment. Kara is always so guarded. I elaborate quite a bit on that moment in my review so I won’t repeat myself here. Except to say that Kara’s been asking Lee that question (Are you sure I’m what you want) for a lot longer than most would realise and Lee’s the only man she’s been saying it to. Sam seems to be very direct in telling Kara he wants her, but his words have zero affect on her and she digs her heels in further to keep a distance between them. Lee says he needs her and Kara starts trembling and her eyes stay open as she drinks it up.

The Tigh scene, which I already knew about, was actually better in execution than it sounded on paper.

I laugh so much when Tigh starts laughing. His giggling is so contagious!

I had very similar thoughts to you on enjoying the extended bits but still preferring the original.

(And pssst, Lee, that's what you need to do: HANG ON SO SHE CAN'T HIT YOU ANY MORE! Physically OR emotionally!)

YES! I really do feel sorry for Lee. He’s picked the worst woman to be in love with. He has his own set of issues and insecurities but Kara’s tend to overpower his which puts the burden on him to steer their relationship if he wants it to be successful because Kara only knows how to smash it in the rocks, even though it breaks her heart when she does. Not that I want Lee to be the only one in control, but I do think he needs to start it off and set the course and ‘hang on tight’ through her initial crap. And hopefully the reward will be worth it.

Loved your review!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on March 13th, 2008 08:34 am (UTC)
Re: three
I’m not a psychologist but I think that might be a clue that Lee pursues women who are already committed so there’s less chance of him getting saddled with one, but emotionally it wouldn’t be his fault when it falls apart. Or something that sounds more intelligent than that.
LOL. I agree that it's very telling. My take on that is that he sets up these situations where he can't 'lose' because he hasn't got too much at stake: he can't let the woman down because she's not totally interested in him and him alone. I think he's very afraid not just of rejection but of failing or disappointing the woman he's with. The Gianne flashbacks, however brief, really point to that. And he's always tried to be the good son and deal with the shit his parents dealt out--so that would fit with him having anxiety about not being able to live up to expectations. But even with Shevon, he wound up acting as her protector and then being rejected by her--so he's actually setting up self-fulfilling prophecies. Same with Dee in a more subtle way: he goes into the marriage knowing that she loves him more than he loves her, but trying to deny it. As you pointed out, Lee should be 'safe' there--unable to let Dee down. But actually he can't live with not being the perfect lover/protector figure to her, and when faced with being the shit who leaves his wife for someone else in TAB, he panics and instead tries to redeem himself in Dee's eyes.

But did you notice how shocked he was when Dee accepted his proposal. He’s like - you will? Why?
Yeah, I think he was genuinely really surprised. He didn't exactly think about it for very long himself and it seems like it was mostly a desperate attempt to numb himself from the pain of Kara's rejection. He thought he was fucking things up with Dee, I think--no wonder he was surprised she said yes.

Kara’s been asking Lee that question (Are you sure I’m what you want) for a lot longer than most would realise and Lee’s the only man she’s been saying it to.
Really? Where have you seen that? I think you said something in your review about Kara having been inviting Lee to open up for ages... but it never felt like that to me. I never saw that.

I do think he needs to start it off and set the course and ‘hang on tight’ through her initial crap
I think the end of S3 potentially laid the groundwork for that because Lee had his Romo-triggered epiphany about 'if you have to fight so hard to stay away from her, just BE with her already!'And he's been getting more and more determined to just seize the day and be himself, no matter what other people think... but then the writers are just as likely to backflip on that.
Re: three - latteaddict on March 17th, 2008 02:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three - bop_radar on March 17th, 2008 10:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three - latteaddict on March 21st, 2008 07:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three - bop_radar on March 23rd, 2008 03:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three -b - latteaddict on March 17th, 2008 03:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three -b - bop_radar on March 17th, 2008 10:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: three -b - latteaddict on March 21st, 2008 08:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
legaleaselegalease on March 13th, 2008 01:39 pm (UTC)
Hi! Here via friend's page. Lee is also my favorite character and I'm so desperate for BSG talk. I really enjoyed your thoughts on the extended version. I'm trying my hardest to wait to see it until I get the DVD on Tuesday, but I'm not strong enough to keep myself from reading the fantastic meta.

I'm wondering how I'll see the characters, especially Lee and Kara, after I watch it. As much as I love Lee, I've never put him on a pedestal, and I am looking forward to seeing more of the passion/anger from him. There was a time when I tried to "get" Lee/Dee because I thought we'd be stuck with them, but I ultimately failed. By the end of last season, I was really glad that the show was moving on from the relationship. Although, I have to say, I have never understood why Dee left him and this new spin on her motivations is not going to help matters. If she truly was just seizing the moment and knew it wouldn't last if/when Kara came back into the picture, then why hang on through the adultery but leave when Kara seems gone forever and she may finally have what she supposedly wanted all along? Was the defense of Baltar really the breaking point? It just wasn't clear to me at all.

I'm also really curious about Kara's comments about the mistakes Lee's been making all along. Was she saying he makes his move at the worst possible times? Did he make a move when she was with Zak? Or did he not and she wanted him to? I do agree with her that he should have made that move back during Season One -- preferably during Colonial Day, but then we wouldn't have had all of this delicious angst!

Anyway -- really loved reading your thoughts on the episode.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on March 13th, 2008 10:33 pm (UTC)
Hi, nice to meet you! I hope you enjoy the episode when you get the DVDs on Tuesday.

I've never put him on a pedestal, and I am looking forward to seeing more of the passion/anger from him.
Well, there's definitely more of that. I enjoyed it--I like it when he gets bitchy and lets himself go a bit more, and he was definitely riding a sea of emotions in this ep. More Lee is always good!

I think I tried to 'get' Lee/Dee for a while too. And the missing pieces in this extended edition really helped confirm what I/we'd always thought about them as a couple. It also helped me understand why Dee stuck with Lee for so long. And yeah, I do think she left him because of the Baltar trial: something that was far more about the 'true' Lee than the Lee she saw. As many people have pointed out, Dee didn't really know Lee all that well when they got married. They hadn't been dating that long, and Lee admits that he hadn't been thinking of marriage at all until the Kara thing. Later Dee admits she married Lee because he was so like his father... except he's NOT so like his father as she thinks, and the trial really put those two in opposite places. I think it's within character for Dee to be intolerant of Lee's principled stance. She doesn't have as high ideals as he does and she does like the 'status quo'. I'd say she's quite conservative, in the sense of wanting to preserve order more than wanting to defend ideals such as justice and freedom. So yeah, it works for me that she left him when she did.

Was she saying he makes his move at the worst possible times? Did he make a move when she was with Zak? Or did he not and she wanted him to?
Unclear! I was really confused by her meaning there and I wished there'd been some elaboration. But it read as if she was conflating all sorts of different threads of frustration--with Sam, with Lee, with wanting them but not wanting them. It's possibly Kara didn't even know what she meant!

I do agree with her that he should have made that move back during Season One -- preferably during Colonial Day, but then we wouldn't have had all of this delicious angst!
Hee! Well it would have been great if he had, but I guess I always really understood why he didn't. There was SO much holding him back in those days--Zak, their roles as CAG and pilot, and--as Lee says here--how terrifying and overwhelming his need for her was. It seems like admitting how desperately he loved her was hard for Lee because it left him so powerless. I always thought he was sure he'd get knocked back by Kara in those days. *I* was sure he'd get knocked back! So I see why it didn't happen. It's only in retrospect that I have more faith that Kara would have been open to it.
(no subject) - legalease on March 14th, 2008 06:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 15th, 2008 08:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
brokenmnemonic: Omegabrokenmnemonic on March 13th, 2008 10:30 pm (UTC)
I want to come back and comment on this in more detail, but I've found that I'm still processing how the ep felt for me rather than being able to be coherent about it, if that makes any sense? You've raised some good points I want to wrangle around with you, but I want to get some objectivity back first... and I'm very conscious that my mood's making things look bleaker than it maybe is.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on March 13th, 2008 10:37 pm (UTC)
Are you in a bleak mood about it, then? I didn't find it that bleak at all. I thought Kara and Lee came off, both, as more unlikeable. Because they're both so selfish here. But I thought Dee was given more agency (which I liked) and I also really loved seeing Kara so into Lee. The short version devastated me and left me feeling like she didn't really care about him at all: the long version was a lot more positive in my eyes, because it seems like she really needed him. (Even if she went about getting him in the most disastrous way possible!) But I'm still processing it myself... and there are few things that still sit oddly for me and I'm hoping someone will help me make sense of them. ;)

I may not get much time to comment in the next day or so. My grandma passed away last night and I have to sort things out with my family. So please don't take it personally if I don't comment on your post quite yet.
(no subject) - brokenmnemonic on March 13th, 2008 10:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 14th, 2008 09:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
smact46smact46 on March 14th, 2008 12:32 am (UTC)
Hi Boppy!
Alas no internet fairies for me. My discs will still be a couple of weeks away, so I won't read your meta until then. Hoefully uou won't be sick of talking about it by then?? I have saved all of my fav's: yours, Latte's, Wisteria's and brokenmneumonics metas to read after viewing and then it will be April!!

P.s the x-Files rewatch *is* proving to be a daunting task but I am finding myself drawn right back into the mulder scully web and becoming so shippery again. I had forgotten how much flirting there was - right from the get go. It's a delight.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Batgirlbop_radar on March 14th, 2008 09:32 am (UTC)
Psst, I sent you a message. :)

And do not worry, I DEFinitely won't be sick of talking about it. I'm nowhere near digesting all of the new content yet.

I loved Mulder/Scully! And I was nuts about Mulder. :) I used to get together with friends to watch X-files on Wednesdays with pizza. I miss those days...
(no subject) - smact46 on March 15th, 2008 06:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on March 15th, 2008 08:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - smact46 on March 17th, 2008 01:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Lee - close-up - syliasyliasyliaasta77 on March 20th, 2008 03:33 am (UTC)
The extended version is very revealing, but it left me with far more conflicted feelings than the short version did.

Me too. At first, I loathed it and found it difficult to even look at Lee/Jamie, but taking a few days to think about, as painful as this was to watch, it did cause me to have some epiphanies about Lee which was a good thing. I can’t say I had a positive view of Lee in this ep, but I did have a greater understanding of him and, shockingly, more sympathy for him than I expected to have.

I think this version makes everything--the fighting, the frakking, the marrying--a FAR bigger screwover of Dee.

I agree that the episode really screwed over Dee, but because I had zero sympathy for her by the end of it. She knew her soon to be husband was in love with another and even tells him that she’s sure he’ll leave her once Kara walks back into his life, yet I’m suppose to feel sorry for her when her prediction almost comes true? She made her choice and it was a bad one.

Kara dialogue seemed revealing to me. Her line about not trying to change Sam's mind read to me like a line she'd prepared in advance--because Sam wasn't talking about his mind in that moment, he was talking about hers.

Hmmm, I didn’t see it as prepared. She seemed quite hurt when he suggested she wanted to be with Lee, not him. If we believe she had a real interest in having married quarters (as her later comment to Lee suggests) it tells me that she wanted to work on her marriage. Does it mean she’d eventually just get over Lee and make her marriage work? I don’t know, but I liked that they made it clear in this extended scene that Sam was more than a convenient frak and if Kara could be hurt by his words than it means she has some strong feelings for him.

The line ties with Kara's call about Lee not knowing 'when to make his moves and when to hold back'. (But when IS that, Kara? could you give him a guidebook, because it sure as hell isn't clear to me!)

Hee! Seriously, Lee bares his soul (and more ;) to her and she runs off and marries another guy the next morning. So I guess he needed to hold back. But until when? I could never fault him in ‘Taking a Break’ for wanting a definite commitment from her before he upended his life for her…again.

I liked that Kara played up the innuendo with the bedroom--it was a bit more of a come-on then we'd seen from her in the edited version and helps explain how Lee got the courage up to make a move.

I agree. I had thought it was just the liquor. ;)

Also, I really loved Kara saying 'I think things just got more complicated'. It made an even clearer parallel to their post-coital scene in the field.

It was a clear parallel, but I hated that they ended on that line. For me, it makes the affair/almost affair they embark on seem more premeditated on her part. It’s her admission that she has him back in her life and an assumption that they’ll pick up where they left off, forget Dee and Sam.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing challengebop_radar on March 20th, 2008 08:16 am (UTC)
I saw you've posted about the ep and I need to get to your post but have had no time to comment this week. I have it bookmarked to come back to this weekend.

. I can’t say I had a positive view of Lee in this ep, but I did have a greater understanding of him and, shockingly, more sympathy for him than I expected to have.
Oh, that is good. Nothing in this extended version really shocked me or made me loathe him--I felt compassion for him throughout, but then I always do. I was mildly surprised by just how entrenched his denial was. While I always knew it was there, this really stripped away all mystery about to what extent.

yet I’m suppose to feel sorry for her when her prediction almost comes true? She made her choice and it was a bad one.
Hmm... I guess I have a little more compassion for Dee? I agree that this shows she went in with eyes open, and once she made that choice I don't feel we need to think 'oh poor Dee!' any more. But I do find it sad that the man she loved loved someone else--that's not Dee's choice and it's not her fault, and I also do understand how she might feel that marrying Lee was still the best way to live life while she's still got it (or maybe I've just been in love with people who don't love me back waaaay too many times and think it's normal, lol!). I actually disagree that it's necessarily a 'bad' choice for Dee. She got what she wanted. She seems fine.

If we believe she had a real interest in having married quarters (as her later comment to Lee suggests) it tells me that she wanted to work on her marriage.
I didn't buy that at all. I figured it was just another random dig at Lee from Kara to get back at him for the 'trouble in paradise?' snark.

they made it clear in this extended scene that Sam was more than a convenient frak and if Kara could be hurt by his words than it means she has some strong feelings for him.
Wow, I REALLY didn't get that at all from the extended version. I didn't see Kara as hurt by his words at all, she just seemed bored. I felt she seemed more stung by him in the short version. In the long version she comes off as even colder and more aloof. It's more obvious that she leaps up from the sex straight away and that she races off. It's also more obvious that she doesn't want Sam to bring up any of the emotional issues in the relationhip--like why they're not living together. If she really wanted married quarters with him, then why would she mind him saying he wanted a real marriage? She could have just bitched about Lee, which surely would have come easily to her... For me, this version was actually far more damning of the Kara/Sam relationship than the short one. I was uncomfortable with the extent to which Kara was using him for sex. In the short version I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

I could never fault him in ‘Taking a Break’ for wanting a definite commitment from her before he upended his life for her…again.
RIGHT!

it makes the affair/almost affair they embark on seem more premeditated on her part.
Oh, yeah, definitely. It makes it more premeditated of Kara--that's the feeling I came away from with this long version as well. In the short, there was enough amibiguity that it could have just been something that had a momentum of its own and neither Kara nor Lee really saw what they were stumbling back into. Or they could have been trying to resist it a little more. But here it seems like Kara just really wanted Lee, went out and got him.

While I'm obviously more comfy with this ep than you, it has left me with one really REALLY big gripe. If Kara wanted this then, if she was so set on it, how the hell did she have the nerve to turn around later and refuse to divorce Sam? I always had issues with her pulling that religious card out on Lee, but this makes it even more hypocritical to me. If this was premeditated then she should have been honest with both Sam and Lee from the start. It seems like she lied to both to get her own way... and that hurt both of them, so I don't think it's just me being Lee-defensive here.

But I'm the only one I've seen have that problem as yet, so I'm probably just weird. This seems to be a very polarising ep.
daybreak777: angst 2daybreak777 on March 23rd, 2008 05:58 pm (UTC)
What a great discussion! I’ll jump right in since my response is long enough.

Final note on Dee: Gaeta really should have taken her by the arm and whisked her away from the ringside. Symapthetic glances not enough!
Yes, he should have! But why add another to the polygon? Gaeta has issues enough, I see why he just chose observe this one.

Tongue-in-cheek question: Does Kara ever have sex with the person she's actually having sex with?! ;)
Um, no? I think in the field she was really with Lee body and mind, but don’t quote me on that one.

Sharon's a better gal!pal than I realised. Hearing her bring up Lee with Kara was somewhat startling . . .
Hearing Zak’s name out of Sharon’s mouth really weirded me out. I didn’t know they were that close. I didn’t know Kara was that close with anyone.

She's ostensibly angry at Anders for being too possessive, but it's hinted in the field scene that she wishes Lee had been able to admit he needed her earlier. I guess that's the paradox: Kara wants to be needed/loved, but she also hates being 'trapped'. (Ok, someone come tell me if I've read Kara completely wrong.)
Kara, Kara, Kara. *shakes head* Let me try. I don’t think she thinks Anders is too possessive. She just knows she can’t give him what he deserves. The man has the patience of a saint and it’s still not enough. She wants to be loved but is terrified of being pushed away so she pushes first. And I don’t know if she wanted Lee to admit he loved her earlier. I think she can hardly believe he loves her at all.

Anyone who is ever with Kara long term will have to be very, very, very, very patient. Their needs may not get met for awhile. She won’t believe they will stay. She will push them away and self-sabotage. She has issues. Abandonment issues, attachment issues. Someone would have to really stay and show her that they love her no matter what she does. She really doesn’t believe anyone can do that.

SHE SAID IT. SHE SAID IT FOR REALZ!!!
I told you! I didn’t like the dare part either, but this part was unmistakable. :-)

I'm not sure why, except that I've been missing her.
Yay, I miss her too. I have noticed I’m a bit more woobie toward Lee since Razor. I love my girl, but I’m more straightforward about her. Not quite as woobie. Maybe I’m ready for her to grow up a bit. Maybe.

And pssst, Lee, that's what you need to do: HANG ON SO SHE CAN'T HIT YOU ANY MORE! Physically OR emotionally!
Aww, Bop. You are so shippy about them! This is a lovely thought and all writers should go write fic that does this right now!

My big issue with this ep: Dee. While I was glad that my instincts a year ago about her were right, she went into the marriage eyes wide open, I don’t fully get it. She acts like she has 30 days to live or something. Why doesn’t she think more of herself? She deserves a man all her own. There is a maybe necessary denial to survive in the fleet. I see it with Cally. I even see it with Caprica. You can’t think too long or too far because nothing is guaranteed. You just leap. It doesn’t bother me in Kara’s character but Dee isn’t a leap first, look later kind of girl. She gave up a piece of herself, her pride to be with Lee, where Billy would have worshipped the ground she walked on. I don’t hate her but I actually understand her less than I did. Where’s the girl who once demanded Lee stop playing with her and actually have relationship or not? Where’s that girl?

I do hope that each minor character gets a little bit of closure. Gaeta, Dee, Cally, Seelix, Racetrack, Boomer. I know that there are only 20 episodes left but I’ve spent five years caring about all of them, and season one never let anyone be neglected. They spent so much time on Kara and Lee last season, I actually need closure on the others too. It’s a family. Leave no one behind. :-)

So much fun discussing this with you again, Bop!

Edited at 2008-03-24 12:45 am (UTC)
Mistress Spinmlsky on April 17th, 2008 01:32 am (UTC)
Heh...I'm mucho late to the game but I loved reading this. And while I LOOOVVVEED the extended version, I think it's definitely for long time fans. The editing seems a bit retrospecitve for someone who's never watched either the show or the original.

If a new viewer asked me which one to watch, I'd rec the aired version first and to wait until they've watched the whole season before popping in the extended edition. To me, it makes more sense that way. *LOL*

Lovely thoughts as usual.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on April 17th, 2008 12:33 pm (UTC)
Yeah, ITA. It definitely makes more sense if you've watched the whole season. And the shorter version is definitely the stronger dramatically.