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13 April 2008 @ 01:38 pm
Battlestar Galactica 4.02 Six of One  
I'm all caught up. YAY! \o/

Thank goodness for the Cylon parts of this episode--they were the only bits I wasn't bawling through. Wow. I'd forgotten what a torrent of emotions Battlestar stirs up in me. And this is probably the gentlest part of the final season! *bites nails* But wow, that was an AWESOME episode. I'm going to have to indulge in picspamming some bits because it was Lee GLORY.

I'll get the other stuff over with first...

Cylons
No matter where it ends up, I really enjoyed seeing the Sixes lead a mutiny against their fellow Cylons. Cavill is annoyingly smug and self-important, and I'm glad that Six called him on thinking HE was god. For all he claims he's just a 'mechanic', he certainly does act as if he's got the one true line to God and all the other Cylons should shut up and listen. He's such a slippery frakker as well, turning things around and admitting Six is 'right' that 'something has changed' when that something suits him.

I found the argument about the Raiders intriguing. I've always wondered about their level of sentience so it was interesting that the Cylons divided over whether they should be suppressed or not. Ditto with the Centurions--it was both creepy and amazing that Six gave them free will.

Final Five
It was interesting to see that the Four have quickly turned to speculation about who the final Cylon is. That's natural, I suppose, but it's also kind of creepy. Have they not considered that it could be even more dangerous for them to find that out? Meeting/finding the final Cylon might be the trigger that turns them against their own.

In any case I was amused to see Tigh very skeptical that Kara was the final one. I'm with you, Tigh: she's still Starbuck to me. And he's right that she's certainly not playing it very cool if she IS the final Cylon. (That's one of my biggest gripes against the Roslin pov, btw: why would the final Cylon have such a lame vague story about Earth and act so crazy when it wasn't believed. To date the Cylons have been a lot more creepily successful than that at manipulating humans--their manipulation has been way less overt than this is. To me it just doesn't add up that Kara's a Cylon.)

Tigh may not have put it very politely, but he's right that their best chance of getting close to Baltar is through a woman. However, from that point on I got a bit lost with Tory's point. She objected to being treated as bait, but then she follows through and sleeps with Baltar anyway? Is she really that desperate to find out what he knows? I don't feel like I've got any handle on Tory's character whatsoever so I couldn't tell whether she was genuine or playing Gaius in any of those scenes. At times, her dialogue seemed so clunky I thought we were meant to read her as manipulating him. But then she cried during the sex and I had no clue what to make of that. I'm definitely going to have to hunt out someone who's got a better understanding of her character. I was at a complete loss.

On the other hand, seeing Gaius gain a head!Gaius was completely LOLarious. Truly, it felt like a return to Season 1 Gaius in his disorientation about his visions. They were very funny and facepalm-enducing.

Kara
Kara was phenomenal through the entire episode too. I'm completely sold on her emotional journey so far this season. Although I wasn't around for the post-ep chatter of 'He who believeth in me' I noticed a lot of people mentioning that Kara wasn't very Kara-y, which surprised me. daybreak777 pointed out how emotionally demonstrative she was, and that's undeniable, but I attributed that to the experience she'd been through and the pain of the jumps. Whatever the reason, I'm finding her storyline powerful and moving and I'm 100% emotionally commmitted to her being right. If it turns out Roslin's right, I'm going to be GUTTED.

That first scene between them was incredible. I felt Kara couldn't have put up a better appeal for understanding. I was SO glad that Kara brought up Roslin's vision and the Arrow and Temple. She asks a very valid question: why can Laura demand absolute trust and sacrifice on the basis of a vision, and not Kara? Back then Laura put her faith in Kara, but that was when Kara's actions supported Laura's goals. Now it's a different story. Kara stands in absolute opposition to Laura and what Laura believes in and needs to believe in. So Laura refuses to put her faith in Kara. To Laura, the risk is too great--they could lose their way entirely and render meaningless all the work she's done to get them this far. The 'miracle' of her recovery would be negated as well, and it already feels like that's happening because she's dying again. Kara's in a similar position: if Laura doesn't accept her story, Kara will lose her connection to Earth completely and her death/rebirth will be rendered meaningless. What is life worth to either of them if they lose that? Not much. So we have a standoff between two women absolutely ready to die before admitting the other is right.

What makes their emotions run even deeper is they are both fighting for more than just themselves. Kara says Galactica is 'all she has'. They're her 'family'. Laura thinks of the whole fleet as her family. Loyalty, responsibility and love drive both of them as well.

I was fascinated by the way Laura rationalised everything to herself. The more persuasive Kara became, the more vehemently she believed she was a Cylon: 'they made you perfect didn't they'. Later she argues to Bill that Kara acted as if her life had no meaning. And she admits only one possible conclusion: that she's a Cylon. She is blind to the idea that Kara's convictions are just as strong as Roslin's own. You can't tell me Roslin wouldn't ALSO put herself in front of a bullet if it would help save the fleet.

I love this expression from Roslin. As Kara is dragged away ranting she remains composed and aloof. You can really see how far she's distanced herself from thinking of Kara as a human being.


A neat piece of symbolism? The shot that Roslin fired split the photograph of her and Bill--symbolising a rift between them.


Of course, Kara's actions also created a rift between HER and Bill. And it was the Kara-Adama relationship that formed the emotional heart of this episode, and very painful it was too. I was devastated by the scene between Kara and Adama in Kara's cell. I know Adama's rejected her before and I've found that horrible, but I've never been so emotionally affected by it. The difference for me this time is that I feel Kara's wholly in the right. She has all my sympathy, and Adama, calling her 'stupid' and 'gutless', has none. What an ungenerous asshole he is. He's just plain wrong too: she HASN'T screwed over 'her only ally'. She has Lee! And she has Adama after all it turns out by the end of the episode. It's just so ugly that Adama had to put up this show first. Kara's spot on when she says he has to 'remind himself he's someone else'. That's exactly what this is: a big show to prove his loyalty to Roslin. Which he undercuts in the end anyway. Gah. Like Kara, I find Adama cowardly in this regard. And the fact he lashes out at Kara physically makes me nauseous. It's good to see that Kara's able to read that behaviour correctly though. Sick as it is, the violence of his reaction IS a sign that he still 'cares'. Oh, the frakked up Adama family!

Lee's farewell
OMG, how I cried! I was so startled and moved. For some reason I'd seriously just thought he'd amble off on his own and no-one would pay any attention. I thought it was terrific that they toasted his send-off, and even then I thought that's all there would be. You should have seen me when they all came to see him off. OMG, the TEARS! I'm just so happy for him. I don't think he's ever understood how much his pilots respect him.

And whee, Helo-Lee interaction! ALWAYS GOOD. *glee* Especially when Helo is taking Lee's hand and leading him to the drinks. *giggle*


I thought Lee's toasts were very nicely done, but I had my heart in my mouth because I thought he might toast Kara. Moving as that scene was, it didn't feel the same with her not being there. Mentioning her by name would have been too divisive, I guess, but it was obvious who Lee was thinking about when he toasted 'absent friends'. And the shipper in me couldn't help but squee that it came after he toasted husband and wives. Yes, he was saving the most moving toast for last and it was meant more generally as well: to all those who've been lost. But I'm sure he meant Kara, who was lost and who he's found again, but who is still physically absent in this scene.

(I also got the sense that Helo was right there with him on that page.)


Adama certainly got the point, turning to look at a picture of Kara on the flightdeck with Lee. And wow, that made me cry afresh.


That was the first flicker that Adama was changing his mind. And it was followed by us seeing he's put his ship back together again. With the Aurora figurine as it's figurehead? How very telling.

I found myself starting to dislike Laura in this episode. I really didn't like her snort about Lee's party. She's so bitter about the trial. And I get that. I just don't agree with her about it. And I get the feeling that in a more subtle way, just like Kara, she's starting to lose it a bit. She's dying and she's taking drugs. They're messing with her, and it showed in her abrupt attitude with Bill, I think.

I think among the complex reasons why Laura opposes Kara, there is also a streak of simple jealousy. 'Admiral Atheist' wouldn't call her experiences a miracle, but he suggests Kara's were. I liked the dialogue in that scene, particularly the 'so does doubt' line from Adama. I'm also glad he called her on being afraid she's not the dying leader she thought she was. I do feel for Laura--that's a testament to the acting, I think--but I believe Kara.

While I wasn't in sympathy with Laura for most of the scene, I do think her argument that Adama couldn't take any more loss was spot on the mark. In particular he doesn't want to face the reality that Laura is going to die. Again, their conversation also reflects on Lee. Laura's line 'you would rather be wrong about her and risk your own demise than risk losing her again' is the strongest criticism of Lee that can be made right now. If it's true of Adama, it's definitely true of Lee as well. But with Lee (if not with Adama) I just don't think it's the only reason he believes her. He's motivated by fear and love and joy, yes, but also by an inner conviction he's never really trusted before. As we see in the scene between them.

Which brings me to THE BEST PILOT SCENE EVER. Srsly. I can't stop watching it! I never thought I'd see this! I'm sure everyone's picspammed the hell out of it already, but I DON'T CARE.

Lookee! A Kara that is happy (joyful?) to see Lee!


A Lee that's all cute and sheepishly confiding his newfound direction in life to Kara. I love how he balances on the sides of his feet, like a little kid.


Kara's 'except me' line was very WTF to me. (And I'm sure Kara fans will scream at me for that!)


I'd already jumped to the 'ESPECIALLY you' line before he said it. So much so that I almost felt Lee's first line about never being about to say no was just a flirty lead-in to that suggestion.


I'm not sure how to read Kara's expression here but I was still moved by it.


I squeed with joy at Lee saying he finally understood what Kara meant about having a destiny. And at him saying he's ok with not having a reason 'why'. OMG LEE GROWTH!


Kara's smile seemed to speak of her pride and love in Lee in that moment, and I could feel him basking in that. She seemed so genuinely happy for him, which is generous when she's being prevented from following her OWN destiny.


Lee still stares at Kara just that fraction too long.


There must have been so many conflicted emotions for him in replying to Kara's 'so say we all': it's not ALL of them, it's these two on their own, and he's reminded that he's not in the fleet any more, not following his father.


I love the way Lee's emotions are mirrored on Kara's face. These two were so IN SNYC emotionally in this scene and that's so so rare.


And then she gets to her feet all cute and girlish and Lee looks so surprised.


Of course I started crying when she wished him goodluck. Goodluck sounds like goodbye (and it probably is--I suspect RDM will now push these two far apart again as he loves to do). But it's also so moving because Kara's goodwill means SO MUCH to Lee.


Kara looks like she's trying so hard to be upbeat despite everything--and I'm really moved that she made that effort for Lee.


But she can't hang on to it when she looks at him because he's so serious and can't hide his emotions as well as she can.


And of course they hang on to each other a bit too long, with Lee giving himself away with that extra hand.


Lee's slightly bashful smile here reminded me of their first scene together in the mini-series. And just like back then he thinks he's doing the right thing in hiding his heart from her.


MY heart did CARTWHEELS when I saw Kara's reaction to Lee turning away. I had stomach butterflies. I never thought I'd see her reach out for him so clearly.


While it held me on tenterhooks, I loved that Lee paused for moment. It was one of those now or never moments, and he could either play things by the book and leave, or follow his heart and turn back.


Of course he turned back! Didn't he just tell her he could never say no to her? I love the way their hands went up to cup each other's faces.


Kara needed those kisses! And yeah, maybe she just needed them from ANYone right now, but I choose to believe she needed them from Lee.


She also needed to hear 'I believe you'. And maybe it wasn't Lee's place to say it, he's not her husband, but I'm overjoyed for her that she got to hear it, and for Lee that he had the courage to tell her, to not leave her hanging and to admit the full extent of his feelings for her.

Now let's hope he's going to be Advocate for Kara in the government! :D

As if that scene wasn't enough for my L/K-splodey heart, they had to have Lee flashing back to Kara's praise of him from last season. Eeee! I *knew* that had meant the world to Lee, and it was great to hear that he carries it with him still.

When he walked on the flightdeck I actually thought Helo's 'attention to orders' was still part of a flashback! LOL. For a moment. and then I registered Lee's shocked expression.


And then I started crying AGAIN.


Laura must have been dragged there kicking and screaming, but it still meant a lot that she came. I did notice though that she grabbed Tory and scuttled out of there as fast as possible.

I love Lee's expression. *sniffles*


More great Lee-Helo interaction, with Lee wishing Helo 'good hunting' and Helo looking like he was the one that planned this... he certainly seemed super-happy about it at the very least.


It made me LOL that Lee chose to stop shaking hands on that side right before he got to Tigh.


And yes, even the Lee/Dee scene had me welling up. It was somehow appropriate that their farewell was in public. They've split up, and this seemed like a fitting acknowledgment of the professional aspect of their relationship. In some ways I feel like their personal relationship grew out of the professional connection, not just because their roles through them together and then they worked together, but also because Dee's attraction to Lee was based in admiring his Adama-like aspects.

Well, he's on a different path now but I think Lee does care about Dee and that was evident in his hug and his expression. I'm glad he was able to crack a joke with her, and that she laughed at it. I think both of them will be 'ok' now. Lee doesn't seem cut up about the break-up: he's got his destiny to follow. But I believe him when he says he'll miss Dee. He'll miss ALL of them. Galactica has been his family.

I still can't watch the Lee/Adama hug without crying and I've been watching this scene over and over all morning. *sniffles* I'm so so happy that Lee's following his heart, but I will miss him SO much as pilot and CAG. So very mixed emotions.

While the final scene with Adama changing his mind about Kara was awesome, I kind of feel it was unnecessarily melodramatic to have them pretend they were going to airlock her first. I choose to blame RDM for that, because otherwise it makes Helo a strangely sadistic friend. And the dialogue between Adama and Kara was still painful.

God, Adama frustrates the hell out of me. But I can't say that his actions aren't in character here. Last season when he had conflicted emotions he let Helo get away with foiling the genocide plan, this season he lets Kara go despite publicly supporting the president.

I don't know how Kara fans felt about that scene, but I wished Adama could have given her more than a stern instruction and a reluctant hug. A smile, for instance, would have been nice.

Phew. I'm exhausted now.
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: exhaustedexhausted
 
 
 
canadiangirl_86 on April 13th, 2008 04:16 am (UTC)
We are so on the same page with EVERYTHING. Um, yeah, especially the new BEST PILOTICIAN SCENE EVER. Holy crap. I thought I had squeezed all the analysis out of it that I could but you got even more!

And you're so right how incredibly selfless Kara is in their scene, considering that she's in the brig under suspicion of being a cylon and can still put on a happy face for him. Oh, Kara.

I liked the Lee/Dee scene as well. Kandyse was really good and while Dee was obviously there because she loves Lee, there was still that little tinge of betrayal in her eyes. But things will be alright between them now, I think.

I noticed Roslin running off after the ceremony as well! Interesting, considering I think there was a promo shot of them shaking hands and everything. Must've been intentional to cut that out.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on April 13th, 2008 04:25 am (UTC)
Wheeeee!! Yay, I must rush to your post then... :D

And you're so right how incredibly selfless Kara is in their scene, considering that she's in the brig under suspicion of being a cylon and can still put on a happy face for him. Oh, Kara.
Yeah, Kara being selfless is SO TOTALLY IRRESISTABLE. I feel all achy for her and couldn't love her more right now.

Kandyse was really good and while Dee was obviously there because she loves Lee, there was still that little tinge of betrayal in her eyes.
Yeah, it was well played by Kandyse. And she really deliberately composed herself after Lee said 'take care of yourself' as if she was putting up her emotional walls again. I do think they'll be fine now. Amicable but separate.

nteresting, considering I think there was a promo shot of them shaking hands and everything. Must've been intentional to cut that out.
Wow, was there? That would have been pretty 'wtf' given how cold Roslin's been to him since the trial.
The First Evil: Laura - saviour - wurlockeasta77 on April 13th, 2008 05:05 am (UTC)
The Kara and Laura dynamic is fascinating. Both believe they have destinies that involve leading humanity to earth. Both are willing to die to achieve their goal. And both believe they are right. I've seen people comment they are angry at Laura for not even contemplating Kara may be right. I understand Laura's reasoning for distrusting her, but it's also clear that Kara isn't willing to even think about the possibility she may be wrong. Someone is going to be gutted by the outcome of this journey and I think it's going to be Laura.

I'm still at a loss with Tory. Part of the problem is she was such a minor character prior to 'Crossroads' we don't know anything about her, nor do we care about her. And, frankly, I don't think the actress has much range. Have we seen more than two expressions from her? I think a stronger actress could help compensate for the weak and confusing material she's been given.

I've seen others state that Tory ultimately allowed herself to be pimped out, but I felt that she was actually drawn to Baltar and it was her choice to sleep with him. Though, I can take issue with the argument that Tyrol and Tigh made that he could provide answers just because he happened to be in the temple with D'Anna. That seems pretty weak.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on April 13th, 2008 05:26 am (UTC)
I've seen people comment they are angry at Laura for not even contemplating Kara may be right. I understand Laura's reasoning for distrusting her
Yeah, me too. I can see quite clearly where Laura's coming from, and I can't say that in her position I wouldn't also resist Kara's message just as strongly. I was a little annoyed by Laura but only by her insularity and bitterness towards Lee, not her approach to Kara.

Part of the problem is she was such a minor character prior to 'Crossroads' we don't know anything about her, nor do we care about her. And, frankly, I don't think the actress has much range. Have we seen more than two expressions from her?
I feel that too, but I know a couple of people on my f'list find her compelling. I'll be interested to see what they made of this material. It was the weakest part of the episode for me.

Tory clearly didn't HAVE to sleep with Baltar, so I agree with you. I'm definitely more wtf about the overall line of the Four thinking Baltar will somehow have all the answers. That didn't really hang together for me either. Feels like they are clutching at straws.
daybreak777: Me too.daybreak777 on April 13th, 2008 05:28 am (UTC)
Hey Bop. Been thinking about you and Kara. I didn't want to spoil you, but my reading of Kara came from UB-EX, He Who Believeth, and Six of One. I wonder if you connect more with this version of Kara because she does show emotion and is easier to read. Everything is sort of out there. But it killed me to see her freaking out alone in the brig and Adama walking away. I wanted to hurt him in that moment for leaving her alone like that. It's actually hard for me to watch her shrieking.

OMG, how I cried! I was so startled and moved.
Aww, Bop, they played Wander My Friends! *hugs*

I do feel for Laura--that's a testament to the acting, I think--but I believe Kara.
Me too! Me too! Me too!

And yeah, maybe she just needed them from ANYone right now, but I choose to believe she needed them from Lee.
No, Lee. Lee, Lee, Lee. He's her best friend, she needed him.

I'm so so happy that Lee's following his heart, but I will miss him SO much as pilot and CAG.
I can't quite believe that we won't see them fly together again, that just doesn't seem right.

I don't know how Kara fans felt about that scene, but I wished Adama could have given her more than a stern instruction and a reluctant hug.
My reading? Adama doesn't quite trust her all the way and he's struggling with following his own instincts. It is hard for him to have a sort of blind faith, acting also out of love. And I'm happy to have gotten hugs. I'm counting on hugs for characters this season and I hope Laura Roslin gets one soon too.

Seems like all the character are trying to find themselves this season.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee is emo!bop_radar on April 13th, 2008 05:44 am (UTC)
I wonder if you connect more with this version of Kara because she does show emotion and is easier to read.
I do. I definitely think that's it. It's the same with Sam in 'He who believeth'. I finally felt like I had access to his emotional state, so he was instantly more sympathetic to me. It probably points at a weakness of mine: I'm drawn to people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, and I'm confused by people that guard their emotions or put up fronts.

But it killed me to see her freaking out alone in the brig and Adama walking away.
I can only begin to imagine. It killed ME, and I can't even contemplate my rage if it had been Lee.

I can't quite believe that we won't see them fly together again, that just doesn't seem right.
Yeah that feels weird. I wished we'd seen a little more of them flying together in 4.01 if that's to be the case. But I think there's still potential to seem them reunite in the sky again--either in a final battle where everyone pitches in, or in a memorial or something.

And I'm happy to have gotten hugs. I'm counting on hugs for characters this season and I hope Laura Roslin gets one soon too.
Aww, you are so sweet to all the characters! Hugs do seem much needed all round. That's fine by me! I feel like *we the audience* need a hug for making it this damn far...
(no subject) - daybreak777 on April 13th, 2008 01:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daybreak777 on April 14th, 2008 05:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 08:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
wisteria: bsg - pilots - goodbyewisteria_ on April 13th, 2008 05:30 am (UTC)
Kara's 'except me' line was very WTF to me. (And I'm sure Kara fans will scream at me for that!)

Hee! As I said in my post, I interpreted that line as her referring to his "No" in TaB. Her face immediately falls. Not really bitter so much as a sad self-recrimination. Of course WE know that Lee's talking about the breadth of their relationship, and I don't think he picks up on what Kara means there.

It's interesting, because whatever epiphany Kara might've achieved in "Maelstrom", Lee isn't part of that. I don't think she blames him at all for not choosing her -- she looks at it more as "Yeah, I frakked up my chance with him."

And what's really interesting to me is that, as I said to a friend's post last night, I'm convinced that since "Maelstrom", Katee has been deliberately playing Kara as in love with Lee. It's so clear on her face during the viper wing scene and especially here, when she holds his hand. See what I mean?





I don't know if RDM, his writers, and his directors intend to show her that way, but I really do believe that Katee has chosen to play her as being hopelessly in love with him -- and "hopelessly" is the key word because Kara really does think that she'll never have him back. Aww. :(

I also adore that when Lee chooses to turn back, he never actually looks up at her before just rushing to kiss her. He doesn't have to check her face to see that it's what she wants or that they're on the same page. He simply knows from the tone of her voice. Oh, Pilots!

Lovely, lovely meta, Bop! Thanks for posting it!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee owns Karabop_radar on April 13th, 2008 05:51 am (UTC)
As I said in my post, I interpreted that line as her referring to his "No" in TaB. Her face immediately falls. Not really bitter so much as a sad self-recrimination.
That makes logical sense to me, and I read that in your post, but I struggle to follow/see it when I watch the scene myself. I do see the streak of self-recrimination there though--I think that's what threw me.

Of course WE know that Lee's talking about the breadth of their relationship, and I don't think he picks up on what Kara means there.
No. Well I'm still convinced he thinks Kara rejected *him* just as much as he rejected her in TAB. She walked off on him so quickly after the barely-there 'proposal' and he looked so baffled. I think he's told himself all this time that she wouldn't really have followed through with it anyway, and she went back to Sam so quickly after all... So the idea that he turned her down is not foremost in Lee's mind at all.

I don't think she blames him at all for not choosing her -- she looks at it more as "Yeah, I frakked up my chance with him."
I can see that in this scene. And I'm so relieved--it eases my anxieties regarding her character a lot. I always worry that she blames Lee for everything.

'm convinced that since "Maelstrom", Katee has been deliberately playing Kara as in love with Lee. It's so clear on her face during the viper wing scene and especially here, when she holds his hand. See what I mean?
I do. Maelstrom was the first episode in which I ever believed Kara loved Lee. And I felt it again watching this one. It warms my heart a great deal. I'm not sure why Katee shifted into this acting style now and not before, but I'll take it anyway. ;)

and "hopelessly" is the key word because Kara really does think that she'll never have him back. Aww. :(
You think? How can she think that? You mean she'll be too busy finding Earth? Because surely she knows after that kiss that she could have Lee in a heartbeat if she asked?

he never actually looks up at her before just rushing to kiss her. He doesn't have to check her face to see that it's what she wants or that they're on the same page. He simply knows from the tone of her voice. Oh, Pilots!
Best moment ever! To quote Jo, it is my favouritest favourite now. :) I am so happy they had this moment of being on the same page. I know everything's ephemeral in BSG, so I cling to such moments.

Thanks for insightful commenting!
(no subject) - wisteria_ on April 13th, 2008 07:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 13th, 2008 07:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daybreak777 on April 13th, 2008 01:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 02:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daybreak777 on April 14th, 2008 05:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 06:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brokenmnemonic on April 16th, 2008 03:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 16th, 2008 10:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brokenmnemonic on April 17th, 2008 11:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 17th, 2008 12:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
latteaddict: Kara/Papadamalatteaddict on April 13th, 2008 07:46 am (UTC)
Thank goodness for the Cylon parts of this episode--they were the only bits I wasn't bawling through. Wow.

yeah. Despite anticipating an emotionally charged episode, I really had no idea.

You can really see how far she's distanced herself from thinking of Kara as a human being.

Agreed. It was really cold. The more passionate Kara got, the less moved Laura became.

And the fact he lashes out at Kara physically makes me nauseous.

I can't even talk properly about Adama yet. I was sort of okay when he slammed her to the ground (I get the high tension situation), but I found the final shove, making sure her head smacked hard into the deck was too much and it pushed me over the edge. I can't handle seeing Kara get hurt when she's not fighting back.

The private party for Lee was weird for me. I found it a jolt to switch gears so fast. But then we've seen in deleted scenes how rowdy and raunchy the pilots get after one of their own dies and they get to auction off their stuff, so I guess this is just the mindset of combat pilots. But I don't believe for one second that they play strip triad with the Admiral in the room. It was all too much and seemed like overkill to make yet another point.

I did like Lee's official farewell. He deserved the honours, for sure. It was like getting the blessing of the crew or something. And shock, horror, I didn't mind the Dee scene. It was a perfect fizzle of an ending to a lacklustre pairing. Lee was a pretty decent guy throwing her a bone saying he would miss her and I kind of liked the way she refused to return the sentiment *heh*

I don't know how Kara fans felt about that scene, but I wished Adama could have given her more than a stern instruction and a reluctant hug. A smile, for instance, would have been nice.

as always, Kara easily forgives and embraces those who hurt her the most. But at least he didn't abandon her in space. And giving her the shit-ship seemed fitting (as a reflection on Adama). Ahhh, season 1 *clings to it*

Great review bop!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee's farewellbop_radar on April 13th, 2008 08:47 am (UTC)
Yeah, I found Adama just horrible to Kara in this episode. More so than ever before, for me. I *try* to see his point of view but I can't get over the fact that he seriously needs to find a healthier way of relating to people. And I don't even see him trying to find that.

I see a lot of people found the Lee farewell toast a bit jarring. I don't really think the whole party was for Lee: it seemed more like a post-combat celebration--they had to drag him out of a corner. I kind of felt it's the sort of crazy emotional lurch between scenes that we get a lot in BSG, and I could see that for the whole crew it was important to say farewell to Lee. And I was glad he toasted his crew. But it felt wrong not to have Kara there.

t was like getting the blessing of the crew or something. And shock, horror, I didn't mind the Dee scene. It was a perfect fizzle of an ending to a lacklustre pairing. Lee was a pretty decent guy throwing her a bone saying he would miss her and I kind of liked the way she refused to return the sentiment *heh*
Hee. I'm oddly delighted that you didn't mind it. I thought it was an appropriate ending, really. It was a strange way for a marriage to end, but then the relationship always was a bit peculiar.

It WAS very big of Kara to accept Adama and embrace him. I guess she was just so relieved that he believed her, at least partly. And she's very good at reading him, seeing through that gruff exterior. I'd find that very hard--I seriously don't think I could be as generous as Kara.
Melissa: Colinradioreverie on April 13th, 2008 08:47 am (UTC)
Where aaaaaaarrrrree youuuuuuu?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Katiebop_radar on April 13th, 2008 08:48 am (UTC)
Here! I'm right here. Can't you see me?! *goes to check*
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 13th, 2008 08:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
jude_judith82: Shirtless Leejude_judith82 on April 13th, 2008 04:19 pm (UTC)
I don't have much more of substance to add but get out of my head Boppy! I was so happy Lee got such a great send off. And I'm shallow enough to admit that Lee in those sweaters is hot. Keep it up! Kara right now seems so fragile I'm really looking forward to seeing what's going to happen to her. She's on a very fine edge of losing it.
I found myself starting to dislike Laura in this episode. I really didn't like her snort about Lee's party. She's so bitter about the trial. And I get that. I just don't agree with her about it. And I get the feeling that in a more subtle way, just like Kara, she's starting to lose it a bit. She's dying and she's taking drugs. They're messing with her, and it showed in her abrupt attitude with Bill, I think.

My brother and I were discussing the above and I kind believe how unbearable Roslin has become. Not giving an inch. Especially as you noted when she had the vision both Lee and Kara supported her. Lee going as far as betraying his father. Roslin has a short memory.

Well as always great read.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on April 14th, 2008 02:47 am (UTC)
but get out of my head Boppy!
LOL. I'll take that as a compliment. ;)

And I'm shallow enough to admit that Lee in those sweaters is hot.
THANK YOU, YES! He got some flak for the blue one. I liked it. *is loyal*

how unbearable Roslin has become. Not giving an inch. Especially as you noted when she had the vision both Lee and Kara supported her. Lee going as far as betraying his father. Roslin has a short memory.
I'm really trying to put it down to her illnesss and the drugs she's taking because I'm finding it hard to swallow. She's always been such a big-picture, see-all-sides-of-the-equation thinker: I hate seeing her act so stubbornly. Though I do think she's been very well scripted and I do see the reasons why she just can't believe Kara--too much is at stake for her personally and politically.
(no subject) - jude_judith82 on April 14th, 2008 04:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
dianora: bsg lee kara he believes herdianora2 on April 13th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)
Yay, you watched! And made a great post as always.

She objected to being treated as bait, but then she follows through and sleeps with Baltar anyway? Is she really that desperate to find out what he knows?

My theory is that she had no intention of sleeping with him, until she had that conversation with him and he started talking about the music, etc. I think then she was simultaneously genuinely drawn to him and curious enough about what secrets he might indeed possess that the sex was worth it. Still not sure how to interpret those tears, though, unless she was just hating herself for what she was doing.

(I also love that Gaius is deeply skeptical of her motives, but sleeps with her anyway -- who is he to ever turn down sex? *g*)

I agree with pretty much everything else you say here so don't have much to add. :) I do agree with wisteria_'s reading of "Except me" to refer to Lee's saying no to her in Taking a Break. But that's the ONLY time he's been able to say no to her, which is why Lee's "Especially you" is true and heartfelt.

And yeah, maybe she just needed them from ANYone right now, but I choose to believe she needed them from Lee.

ESPECIALLY from Lee. :) With the exception of their New Caprica fallout, he's the person who has always had her back. She needs to know he still does.

My favorite moment of the brig scene, which I forgot to mention in my own writeup and which practically deserves its own post, is Kara's expression after she calls out to him -- and he pauses. And lingers. And her face crumbles for a moment as she fears he may just keep walking and not turn back, and that clearly would have destroyed her. GAH. I need to go rewatch now. :D
patron saint of neglected female characters: toryrose_griffes on April 14th, 2008 12:47 am (UTC)
My theory is that she had no intention of sleeping with him, until she had that conversation with him and he started talking about the music, etc. I think then she was simultaneously genuinely drawn to him and curious enough about what secrets he might indeed possess that the sex was worth it.

Heh, that's pretty much what I came over here to say, too. Plus there's the fact that, having slept with cylons before, he's less likely to be judgmental of her if by chance he does know the truth.
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 03:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dianora2 on April 14th, 2008 03:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 06:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 14th, 2008 02:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dianora2 on April 14th, 2008 03:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
Sing me a bawdy song, make me merry: bsg - get a roomthe_sun_is_up on April 13th, 2008 05:29 pm (UTC)
Kara's 'except me' line was very WTF to me. (And I'm sure Kara fans will scream at me for that!)

Heh. I'm a Kara fan, and I get how that line could seem totally worthy of WTFery. My personal take on the line was that it's very revelatory of Kara's lack of a feeling of self-worth when it comes to relationships. She's bad news, a frak-up; she thinks she's doomed to mess up every relationship she gets into, and to mess it up in a huge way. (A la that one time when she killed her fiance.) It's like no matter how many times Lee confesses his love to her, whether accidentally or screamed out loud in a field, she can never quite believe him. She can't believe that he'd want to be with someone as entirely screwed up as her.

That's actually one of the many many things I loved about that scene (SQUEE PILOTS! ahem.) because "Except me" sums up Kara's view of their relationship while "Especially you" sums up Lee's, and in the moment after they said it, it was like maybe maybe they were finally starting to see eye to eye.

Err... sorry, I kind of meta'd all over your comments section! lol. But I adore your pilots picspam, it made me get all mushy again. And I liked your take on the Lee/Dee interaction because at first that scene rang kind of false to me.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee awesome sexybop_radar on April 14th, 2008 02:55 am (UTC)
My personal take on the line was that it's very revelatory of Kara's lack of a feeling of self-worth when it comes to relationships.
Excellent take! Thank you for the explanation (and the generosity of understanding why I found it 'wtf'!).

because "Except me" sums up Kara's view of their relationship while "Especially you" sums up Lee's, and in the moment after they said it, it was like maybe maybe they were finally starting to see eye to eye.
I know! I know! *bounces up and down excitedly* You've described exactly why that moment right after that was SOOO exciting. And why I then couldn't breathe until they'd kissed, because they SO needed to after that.

Feel free to meta (or squee at the mushy pilots) here any time you like! :) I'm delighted you enjoyed the post.
Blue: BSG - OTP s4blue_meridian on April 13th, 2008 09:42 pm (UTC)
I ended up loving this episode so much (well, okay, fine - the parts I could watch). I have *opinions* on Kara's reactions.
deaver: Kara Lee Hugdeaver on April 14th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
Thank goodness I wasn't the only one who was a blubbery mess.

I kind of feel it was unnecessarily melodramatic to have them pretend they were going to airlock her first.

I kind of took that as a "we have to make all the rest of the ship believe that we still don't trust her" moment. And that they would have told her beforehand, but Kara has never been that great at not showing all her emotions on her face. I don't think she could have successfully walked to the hanger desk pretending to still be in trouble I think everyone would have known they were up to something. So the fake-out was necessary. (or that's my handwave of the situation)



K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on April 15th, 2008 07:36 am (UTC)
Oh, yay, another blubber-er! *shares box of tissues*

I kind of took that as a "we have to make all the rest of the ship believe that we still don't trust her" moment.
I like that take on it. :) Ok, you've made me feel more comfortable with it.
Allison: Kara/Adama Hug - Six of Onefrolicndetour on April 16th, 2008 12:04 am (UTC)
(That's one of my biggest gripes against the Roslin pov, I'm with you and Tigh; she's acting way too suspicious to really be a Cylon. And if she's been a Cylon "from the beginning" (drink!), why kill herself? Why not just say she'd been having visions?

Re: Tory - We also have to keep in mind that this is an Angeli episode, and he's notoriously bad at writing dialogue. But I think her motives were complicated; she was very drawn to him when he said what he did about hearing the music and everything clicking into place,she wants to find out what she can from him - but she also had all that history of hating his guts on New Caprica. Plus she's just really screwed up at the moment. Before, when she was lost she slept with Sam, probably because she sensed their connection, so it felt in character to me - as much as can be anyway.

Kara definitely seems changed to me, but still essentially the same Kara. She seems stronger internally even as she's so much more desperate than we've ever seen her. I can't imagine the old Kara telling Adama to "look at her" or appealing to their relationship as a claim on his loyalty; I like seeing that in her even though it got her thrown to the ground in this ep. It could be just that she's got a sense of purpose like never before, or maybe she's still affected by her "mystical therapy."

distanced herself from thinking of Kara as a human being.

Evidenced by how she says "they made you perfect, didn't they," right before she shoots at her.

Oh, good insight on "nice to know you still care." I took her statement as bitter sarcasm, but I like your read better.

They're messing with her, and it showed in her abrupt attitude with Bill, I think.

The first time I watched that scene I thought that she was supposed to be drunk too, but clearly it's the deloxin. I wasn't ready for her to go downhill so fast. :/

She also needed to hear 'I believe you'.

She definitely needed to hear those words - that was the best thing that Lee could have done for her at that point. I think, as you said in your HTBIM review, that Sam believes her too, but he also thinks/hopes she's a Cylon. The ironic thing is that Lee seems to have come to the same conclusion about "loving her no matter what," but luckily for them both her didn't tell her that - because Kara needs someone to believe in her humanity.

I love your analysis of that scene. The second time I watched, after seeing how sure she was that they were going to airlock her, I think that Kara believed throughout that she was going to die - that's why her face fell when Lee wished her good luck on her journey. At first I took "except me" to be a reference to what was going on then, - she doesn't know the extent to which Lee believes in her and he seems to be leaving when she's in a very tight spot, though I'm convinced he knew what Adama's decision would be. When he explains why he feels he needs to do this, she's happy for him. But most people read it as a TaB reference (I always thought that was more a case of Lee failing to seize the moment than rejection), so that's probably right.

it makes Helo a strangely sadistic friend.

That's how I felt at first too, though someone suggested that Helo was putting on a show for the Marines and any other observers. Which makes me wonder if there'll be rumors of Kara's having been spaced floating around - that could add to the desperation of the D4 considerably.

I don't know how Kara fans felt about that scene,

Well, this Kara fan had to deconstruct that scene for three paragraphs, but I think Adama was sincere that Roslin was right, he would risk anything so as not to lose her again. And it obviously meant the world to Kara. So I did find it somewhat emotionally satisfying, but I can't quite cross Kara/Adama reconciliation scene off my "list of things I need to happen in S4 and then Ron can go ahead and kill everybody." (I'm with you on the earlier violence, though; that wasn't in the script and to me it served to make Adama look weak, like her words hit too close to home and so he lashed out. It would have played better if he'd lost it as soon as he walked into the cell, because she did go after the President, but coming right after her remark about him was lame.)

Edited at 2008-04-16 12:06 am (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara trustbop_radar on April 16th, 2008 03:50 am (UTC)
why kill herself? Why not just say she'd been having visions?
Yeah, totally. She's given them REASONS not to believe her and a true Cylon wouldn't do that. They'd have a slick explanation for why the plane had no marks on it as well.

she also had all that history of hating his guts on New Caprica
Oh, yeah, I'd kind of forgotten that. Or at least I'd forgotten it about Tory specifically. I was just thinking of her having the average amount of Gaius-hate that most of the fleet have these days.

when she was lost she slept with Sam, probably because she sensed their connection, so it felt in character to me - as much as can be anyway.
Yup, a few people have made some really good calls about her character and I'm starting to feel more comfortable with what's going on with her. She definitely seems lost.

She seems stronger internally even as she's so much more desperate than we've ever seen her
Last night I got to talk to my best friend about this (she's always got a very enlightening take on Kara, I find) and she said much the same thing. I asked if it was that Kara had more self-confidence now and she said, no it's not that Kara has more faith in herself but she does have faith in the truth of her finding Earth/her destiny, so that reads as more certainty, strength and centered-ness than ever before. That makes a lot of sense to me and explains the paradox of her being both more desperate AND more emotionally centred.

I wasn't ready for her to go downhill so fast. :/
I know. It's a bit of a shock.

Sam believes her too, but he also thinks/hopes she's a Cylon
*nods* And that makes sense and is also a very 'human' reaction.

luckily for them both he didn't tell her that - because Kara needs someone to believe in her humanity.
*nods* I do think Lee's genuine when he says he doesn't care if she is a Cylon, but I also think he still thinks of her as human, so I don't think he'd imply any doubt on that score to Kara. I can't be completely sure--I think I'm just gleaning it from Jamie's general performance, but Lee's such a logical thinker and I think he can see that Kara's mystical return does not equal Kara = Cylon. But being Lee, he's definitely made himself (internally) face the possibility that she is one and has concluded that that'd be fine too. (*giggle*)

Kara believed throughout that she was going to die - that's why her face fell when Lee wished her good luck on her journey
Oh wow. what a FASCINATING insight and how chilling. That makes the scene even sadder. OMG! I might not be able to rewatch it thinking that. :((

When he explains why he feels he needs to do this, she's happy for him. But most people read it as a TaB reference (I always thought that was more a case of Lee failing to seize the moment than rejection), so that's probably right.
I like your reading better, I think, when I reflect on it. The TaB reference thing never quite worked for me. And I agree that it was more Lee failing to seize the moemnt than rejection. I'm probably going to be making a follow-up post about this ep as my mind is still ticking over things, but I might bear that in mind when I do.

Which makes me wonder if there'll be rumors of Kara's having been spaced floating around - that could add to the desperation of the D4 considerably.
I hope they address it one way or another rather than leave it ambiguous where people think Kara is. Once someone pointed out that Helo may have been making a show for the marines, that made a lot of sense. I guess we'll find out soon.

I should go read your Kara-Adama deconstruction. ;) I am still fuming about Adama so I need some objectivity. ;)

it served to make Adama look weak, like her words hit too close to home and so he lashed out
Yeah, it read like that. But then Kara is very, very good at goading people into violence. ;) It's very self-destructive of her, but she often seems to know exactly what to say to provoke someone (usually an Adama) to lash out at her. I think (unconsciously) she was pushing Adama to get a reaction because that's one of her standard behaviour patterns when in a conflict situation.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on April 16th, 2008 03:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee awesome sexybop_radar on April 16th, 2008 03:33 am (UTC)
Wheee!! (Congrats on the concert success! I love being at the barrier for concerts.) And yes, this episode was SO FANTASTIC. Head!Gaius was too too funny. I loved when Gaius asked if he was Six and he just shook his head. LOL.

The Centurions firing was really scary and creepy and great and I'm definitely still trying to take in what this means for the Cylon plot over all.

And there was Lee/Helo material! Did you see it?! *bounces*
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on April 16th, 2008 04:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 16th, 2008 08:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Mistress Spinmlsky on April 17th, 2008 03:04 am (UTC)
And another excellent read.

I'm actually interested in the Cylon storyline and looking forward to seeing where it goes. Your take on Cavil was kind of cool, cause I've always looked at him as the atheist of the Cylons. His continuous mocking of (using air quotes, no less) God usually piques my interest as I've wondered if being a non-believer would be a problem for the other Cylons. I've never considered that he may have his own God Complex. *nods* I'll have to ponder that...and I like pondering things. *LOL*

Excellent post...thanks for sharing!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on April 17th, 2008 01:09 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I think I've only recently come to this conclusion about Cavil, but I am more and more certain of it. Or maybe I just like the idea that his atheism is quite a twisted way of hiding it. He definitely considers himself 'above' the other Cylons and that may be because he mocks their beliefs, and it may partly be because he thinks his are truer.
Nora Norwich: Kara seriousnorwich36 on April 17th, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC)
I finally have time to comment, yay, but nothing really substantial to say. I agree with you about a lot of things, like the Six rebellion (though I think it's going to come back and bite the Sixes on the ass), and my bemusement at what the hell Tory's real motive for sleeping with Gaius is, and LEE!! This was such a great Lee episode, and I cried like a total baby in that farewell scene, especially when Dee gave him that plaque. *Sobs*

Though I think I liked Roslin a lot more than you in this ep. I can't help it, I *love* when she's being a hardass, so I adored the fact that she actually shot at Kara when Kara challenged her to. (Of course my feelings might be different if she had actually hit her). And I loved the Adama-Roslin confrontation scene--so many great emotional truths being revealed there.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Roslin Kara yaybop_radar on April 17th, 2008 11:26 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I've been thinking about the Six rebellion and it seems like her means are very short-sighted. I'm intrigued though that she is right: the final four are in the fleet. So I'm wondering how much of this is destined. Like maybe she was programmed to make sure that was recognised no matter what that meant? Or maybe she truly is acting outside her programming: we saw that Roslin was able to push the other Six to do so.

I'm glad you liked Roslin. I kind of wanted someone to come defend her. ;) I don't like not liking her! But I'm becoming more and more deeply disturbed by how rigid and inflexible she is. When you agree with her, everything's great, but when you disagree she's such a hardass (which yes, is cool, but is also scary in a President!). The Adama-Roslin scene was definitely one of the strongest in the ep. It was one of those scenes where my sympathies kept moving back and forth between the two characters.
fruitsome: l_pilots obliquegrapefruitzzz on May 6th, 2008 10:09 pm (UTC)
I'm catching up from a few weeks ago, and just got to this bit. Oh the Leeness. Oh the pilotic trust. Oh the who-cares-they're-friends but they-have-this-thing. Even if that's the last of it ever, it was worth it.

Also I sobbed like a baby at his send-off. Poor Lee. I hate his non-pilotude. He was the only one who really suited those uniforms.

I just know that RDM is going to misuse Lee and annoy me for the next six weeks now to make up for it ;)

The real live awake bots were interesting too. I've been wondering about that since that early S3 episode when one of them motioned direction with its head. It just seemed really sentient to me.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on May 7th, 2008 03:23 am (UTC)
Oh the Leeness. Oh the pilotic trust. Oh the who-cares-they're-friends but they-have-this-thing. Even if that's the last of it ever, it was worth it.
Yeah, that's true, you know. :) Although I still want more!!

Also I sobbed like a baby at his send-off. Poor Lee. I hate his non-pilotude. He was the only one who really suited those uniforms.
Awww. Yes, I forgot how you said that. It's true! Everyone else looks uncomfortable. But I do love his suit of hotness as well. ;)

I just know that RDM is going to misuse Lee and annoy me for the next six weeks now to make up for it ;)
Well I hope you find it's not as bad as you think... but I know I will miss Lee racing for his viper... I sobbed too.

I've been wondering about that since that early S3 episode when one of them motioned direction with its head. It just seemed really sentient to me.
I remember that moment--I'm glad it got followed up, even it took eons and eons before it did. ;)