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20 April 2008 @ 01:45 pm
Battlestar Galactica 4.03  
I felt like my normal sympathies were all turned around during this episode. Cally has never been a sympathetic character to me, but I really enjoyed her storyline in this episode and felt terribly sorry for her. I found it the most compelling plot in the episode--and that's remarkable given that we had Lee in politics in the ep as well!

What made a big difference for me with Cally was the fact that she verbalised the problematic aspects of her relationship. I was always really disturbed by her marrying the Chief after he beat her up. I found her childlike and whiny and they'd always seemed to have more of a father-daughter relationship to me, so I was pretty disturbed by them winding up married. However, it really works for me to have Cally confronting the reality of her relationship, and even acknowledging that she 'all but proposed' to him after he broke her jaw--and that that was sick.

I loved the way that all their marital problems played into Cally's paranoia. We've seen what a strain their jobs place on the relationship, particularly the Chief's role. And last season they were used as a point of comparison for the Lee/Dualla relationship. Then it seemed like Chief/Cally was the stronger couple, but here we see them falling apart just as badly--complete with the Chief seeming to be pursuing an affair.

It's convincing to me that Galen would be losing it after discovering he was a Cylon (that all of the Four would be) and who else would there be to talk to except Tory? (It made even more sense once we learnt that Sam was no longer on board.) But it was also made clear that he wasn't pursuing anything sexual with Tory. The betrayal is much worse than that.

I thought it was an interesting choice to have Cally popping meds. (And I have MASSIVE issues with them portraying anti-depressants as something that create delusional behaviour, but I'll spare you all.) I kind of feel she would have freaked out just as much without them when she found out Galen was a Cylon, but I see how it also helped make her actions more comprehensible for the audience. Personally I find it convincing that a human in Cally's position (unbeknownst to them married to a Cylon with a Cybrid child) would suffer a psych break when they discovered the truth.

I loved the scene where Cally talks to the Chief after finding out he's a Cylon, flashing back through their entire relationship. The justoposition of her after being beaten up and then the shot of her heavily pregnant on New Caprica was particularly affecting. She must feel that he played on her own weak psyche to get her shacked up with him and to procreate. And then when he started talking about more children---waahhh! I was freaking out right with her, and my only fear was that in some way her child and her love for him would make her weak.

At first I expected Cally to tell someone. And really only the fact that she was drugged out and falling apart personally explains why she didn't. It's also kind of in character--she's always acted from quite a limited personal perspective. She's never really been concerned with the 'big picture'. And in this case she has her son to consider. Her Cybrid son. I think a very primitive instinct kicked in: for her to determine his fate. Some animals eat their own young when they are threatened. This felt very similar. If the Cylons found out about Nicky, they would take him from her--and it's clear that she's assumed that they've been deliberately using her with a plan to getting Nicky and other possible children from her. If humans found out Nicky was a Cybrid, he'd be taken away from her at best, or killed. Instead, she could die with him, since she had nothing left to live for. It made emotional sense.

But I also understand why she wasn't able to go through with it. There's nothing that puts things in perspective more than the innocence of a child. And when Tory reveals that they didn't know, that they've been, as Cally blurts out, triggered, she starts to lose resolve. Cally says she 'can't live like this', she can't process this situation where she's living beside Cylons who claim to be human. And yet, the reality of Nicky in her arms disarms her.

Tory really REALLY freaked me out in this episode. I started getting disturbed during her bar conversation with the Chief when she talked of being 'flooded with new sensations'. Is that really what it feels like for them? Or is Tory just reading too much into things and she's actually just turning to ambrosia as a form of hedonistic escape? 'Feeling new, feeling open to things, to change' was a very creepy line. And why are all the female Cylons so sexualised? Tory's only been a Cylon for a few episodes and she's already crawling all over every guy she meets. If her circumstances were isolated I'd say it was a coping mechanism, but all the female Cylons have developed sexual fixations with humans, and they all play up their sexuality (in different forms) to manipulate people.

Tory was particularly chilling where Cally was concerned. That shot of her drinking indulgently while Galen's marriage fell apart and Cally stormed from the room was really creepy and set the scene for her later actions. It was interesting to me that Tory was the one to find where Cally had been hiding: you would think that Tigh and Chief, as military officers, would be more tuned in to things being out of place.

And then--oh my god--that last scene. Tory was so horrible and deliberated. It seemed like she was driven to take Cally's child. (Which makes all Cally's worst fears completely valid.) She says she's not evil or inhuman and yet she is able to kill Cally in cold blood. Cally was a threat to their survival and so she died. There is no doubt that Tory is a Cylon.

What I was a bit confused by was whether her death would look like suicide or not. Will Galen know? That final shot of him sitting with Adama should have been creepy and affecting, but I was too busy wondering what it was that he was actually told about her death. Hmm.

Lee
YAY, politician!Lee! :) *bounces* I loved his acceptance speech--especially the fact that he acknowledged Roslin as his inspiration. He's coming to the role with humility, not just as a bratty son trying to overturn the status quo. He's respectful, and I love that. But I also love that he responds to the problematic information that Zarek lays before him.

I loved the Lee-Zarek scene: I thought it was terrific. Straight away, Zarek revealed both his agenda and some hard truths. Laura has shut Lee out. We knew that, but I can see Lee giving her the benefit of the doubt, believing that she would at least respect the role he fills as Caprican delegate. It's disconcerting but I agree with Zarek--she sidelined him very effectively and she's doing the same with Lee. I think she feels very comfortable with the idea of him as a 'junior delegate' and I also think she's pretty sure she can control him. She's wrong.

I love Zarek's reasons for nominating Lee. He said that what he was counting on was Lee being the kind of man who couldn't ignore the truth when it stares him in the face: he got that right. Lee does seem like the perfect choice for Zarek's goals. Zarek claims to be on Laura's side, he believes that she's trying to save all of them. But he does not like her methods of getting there. At first, Lee resisted being persuaded. He knows from the inside the reasons why secrecy is necessary. And I thought it was SO COOL that he verbalised it in suggesting that a 'benevolent tyrant' is what you need. That has been the (usually subtextual) argument so far since the Cylon attacks. And it held water for quite some time. They were at war, decisive and swift action was called for, there were military secrets that could spread dissent throughout the fleet, they were on the run, etc. But. This has become not a temporary state of affairs but a permanent shift in the system of governance. There is great danger in it being accepted without question.

And of course I love that Lee is going to be the one question it! I also trust Lee not to be just Zarek's puppet, just as he's not Laura's. He'll listen to all sides and come to his own conclusion. But right now he's just finding his feet, and I love the way he kind of came off as naive and inexperienced in this episode. I think that's appropriate given he's just starting out.

At the same time, I love the risks he took. It was great to say him say that he felt the military erred on the side of too much caution sometimes (wow, Lee!). And I loved his reaction to Roslin's slapdown. He wasn't crushed by her, he was just amused that she'd manoeuvred so fast to downplay him. Given how she relied on him in the early days of her presidency, it's particularly galling.

So Zarek is going to use Lee to voice concerns that he can't raise himself without losing his position? Very interesting. Laura seemed to clue in straight away to the fact that Zarek was the one to leak the executive order. And Laura moved very swiftly to answer those concerns. But I liked the way Lee put it forward. His words were strong 'it would damage the very idea of justice, even the illusion of the idea of justice' but his manner was so very quiet and humble. *loves*

Laura
Laura did a LOT to win back my sympathy when she answered the press question about Lee's role in the trial so graciously (complete with gentle arm touch--whee!). Lee looked really surprised and moved by her words. And, indeed, it is the kind of line from Roslin that used to make me fangirl her madly. I still kind of do, but I just wish that I could take it at face value; I have a terrible feeling that it was just the perfect line to get the press off her back. There's been no real sign that she's forgiven Lee personally and she didn't offer him these words personally.

And I *do* find that executive order really worrying, even if we buy that it was just a draft (though I think actually that was just swift thinking on Roslin's part). It seems like a continuation of what we've seen developing slowly for a long time--the concentration of power in Roslin's hands, the silencing of debate. And add to the that the close relationship with Adama and the fact that Adama is unwilling to argue strongly with her now, I think that's really dangerous. I love Laura the person, but I think she's losing perspective.

This is going to be very very interesting.

The Cylons
Among many things I was icked out by in this episode was Boomer sleeping with Cavill. Ewwwwwww!!!

But are the Cylons starting to parallel the humans? Seeing them start killing each other and consider boxing whole lines makes it feel as if they've become like humans themselves--turning on their own. And Cavill's line 'that'll teach me to trust in democracy' reminded me of Laura and how she rigged the election.

Of course it's true that the Sixes don't know what they've unleashed. I hate Cavill but he's got that right and it showed in Six not realising she had to say 'please' to the centurions now. How naive! The other aspect of not realising what she's unleashed is not realising just how dangerous it was to anger Cavill. He argues 'they started it' and that's as far as he worries. As is pointed out, he's not worried about his soul, he's not answerable to some greater purpose like the others. He acts coldly and blindly.

The Demetrius
Well there was I with visions of Kara cast off, friendless and all alone in a (literally) crappy ship. Or possibly with only Helo for company. But no. Turns out Bill gave her HALF THE CAST to take with her. *facepalm* How the hell was he ever going to keep that secret? Helo's gone. Athena's gone. Gaeta's gone. Half the pilots have come with her! I'm kind of doubly pissed with Adama over this now. If he was going to back Kara and give her resources (which is, don't get me wrong, very YAY), then why the hell not just do so openly and have it out with Laura? Let the fleet find out and let it be debated widely as it should be in a democracy. It's cowardly on two fronts--he was ungracious to Kara and duplicitous with Laura. And this man leads the fleet?

I really got the feeling that Lee was very much not in favour of the Demetrios remaining secret. He looked away when the question was posed in the press conference and later he spoke up and as much as confirmed the rumour in the Quorum meeting. He read as deeply frustrated with the secrecy. Why not admit that they're pursuing all paths to Earth? What's so dangerous in that? I think it's far more dangerous to act like a dictatorship that has secrets to hide. That's the kind of thing that leads to insurrections.

The establishment shot for the Demetrius with 'Mission: find Earth' on it was very, very cool. Once I got over the shock of discovering that she had half the cast with her, I found the claustrophobic paranoid atmosphere on board kind of fascinating. Kara playing the single-minded captain chasing a dream was very compelling--I particularly loved the lighting on having her walking up and down above them.

Beyond that, I don't know WHAT to make of Kara in this episode. She seems to be losing it, but not in the same way she was in the first two eps of the season. I guess she's not got the agony of jumping away from Earth anymore, but she still has the frustration of not having found Earth. Her post-coital ramblings seemed to imply that she thinks she's different. She says 'everything seems so far away' but I didn't get ANY sense of that from her in the last two episodes. When she came bouncing out of that viper and in the intensity of her scenes with Bill and Lee and even Laura, there was no sense of disconnection. If anything she seemed too engaged, too desperately jacked in to everything, even their coordinates, that she was emotionally overwhelmed. So I guess this sense of distance is a new thing? She certainly seems detached with Sammy.

But that kind of doesn't work because if this is how she feels now, then surely she's been like that since she got back from Earth, since she was resurrected? In theory, her description of feeling like she's watching herself but not living it, feeling disconnected from her own body, works for me as the feelings of someone who has been in some way artificially resurrected. But it doesn't seem to have been consistently portrayed, which makes me wonder if TPTB are trying to have their cake and eat it too: have Kara be 'different' and disconnected but also be able to nail big emotional confrontation scenes. Sigh. It's doing my head in. I will have to go find someone who understands Kara better.

I hated the Sam/Kara sex scene. And not just from Lee-related jealousy: really! I hated it from a Sam perspective. I was screaming at him to grow a backbone and not let her manipulate him like this. If the genders were reversed, having a man scream at his wife that he only married her because he was safe, that the marriage was meaningless, then have him attack her and then insist on sex would seriously gross people out--I'm sure. And this grosses me out just as much. If Sam didn't really love Kara, I might not feel so terribly about it, but I think he's completely devoted to her. She knows exactly how to tug him back in and that feels really sick and horrible.

If Sam wasn't a Cylon I'd feel even worse for him. But that's the other side of this equation. He IS a Cylon. Which makes me desperately worried for Kara. In the episode where Cally found out about Galen and completely lost it, it was pretty disturbing to see Sam still sleeping with Kara. These two are winding up more frakked up as Lee/Kara--who knew that was possible?! I think Sam's still clinging to a ray of hope that Kara is a Cylon and she'll come to realise this and they'll be ok. And I think that's blinding him to the reality that he is continuing to sleep with a human, even though he knows he's a Cylon. Can't he see how that's going to fuck with Kara's mind when she finds out? It's bad enough that she married a Cylon. But if she finds out Sam continued to sleep with her even when he knew he was a Cylon, she's going to feel even more betrayed, right?

It grossed me out MASSIVELY.
 
 
 
Ariel: BSG Anders cylon eyelunar47 on April 20th, 2008 08:08 am (UTC)
wooh this episode was a doozy.

Cally confronting the reality of her relationship, and even acknowledging that she 'all but proposed' to him after he broke her jaw--and that that was sick.

this was one of my favorite parts of the episode. You really wonder after all that he put her through, how could she just forgive him like that, no bitterness.

As for all the loopy camera tricks I'm willing to go with the belief that TPTB did it in order to really make us feel what it was like to be Cally in that situation. I was feeling pretty naseous by the end and I doubt I can sit through the episode again. It definitely hit me emotionally.

That final shot of him sitting with Adama should have been creepy and affecting, but I was too busy wondering what it was that he was actually told about her death. Hmm.

I'm assuming it was suicide. Given what Doc Cottle knew about her it would be the logical conclusion.

As for the Demetrius stuff, Kara is kind of scaring me and not in cool way. I really disliked her character in this one. It was just weird to me.

I'm getting excited about government Lee. I knew I was going to love him so much better in a suit than a pilot uniform.

Sam, Sam, Sam. Kara is not your cylon girlfriend. I am even more convinced that she might just kill him if he revealed his secret.


K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on April 20th, 2008 08:14 am (UTC)
. You really wonder after all that he put her through, how could she just forgive him like that, no bitterness.
Well she couldn't. I think that's what I found brilliant. That she didn't.

As for all the loopy camera tricks I'm willing to go with the belief that TPTB did it in order to really make us feel what it was like to be Cally in that situation. I was feeling pretty naseous by the end and I doubt I can sit through the episode again. It definitely hit me emotionally.
Me too. I'm quite overwrought now. I think the camera effects were quite effective. It was quite trippy and reminded me very much of paranoid drug trip-outs. Not that I've had that many, but yeah... that sense of dislocation from physical reality and then seeing everything click together in a terrifying new light that makes perfect chilling sense is very unnerving.

Sam, Sam, Sam. Kara is not your cylon girlfriend. I am even more convinced that she might just kill him if he revealed his secret.
If they keep going with that line, with him starting to think of her that way, then I think there's more chance she will.

I think I found the (potential) parallel between Cally and Kara really scary in this episode. I think that's what I'm freaking out about most.
(no subject) - lunar47 on April 20th, 2008 08:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 20th, 2008 08:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
patron saint of neglected female characters: anders-musicrose_griffes on April 20th, 2008 01:01 pm (UTC)
Tory really REALLY freaked me out in this episode. I started getting disturbed during her bar conversation with the Chief when she talked of being 'flooded with new sensations'.

Uh-huh. Though I did comment to someone else that she's the one who has less reason to fight the "new" cylon stuff--the others have family, or at least a long, long tradition of fighting and hating cylons.


I'm really glad to have pro-Lee people on my f'list. I was too busy fretting over Cally to have much of a reaction to his storyline this week. ("Nobody's gonna die around him? Okay!") His showdown with Laura was interesting... she's always been driven by expediencies, and now more than ever since she feels her death is imminent. (Which means it may last the whole season. *g*)

There's been no real sign that she's forgiven Lee personally and she didn't offer him these words personally.

Oh, yes, that little speech was incredibly calculated, in my opinion. Which is part of why I think Roslin is awesome, but it's also a worrying moment... and yes, the executive order, even more worrying.

Kara seemed a bit like Captain Bligh in this episode. Mutiny on the Bounty Demetrius next. And yes, if her headspace is now filled with 'distance,' isolation and paranoia, why didn't we see hints of this earlier? Guess they're trying to excuse it with 'twenty-one days later.'

I hated the Sam/Kara sex scene. And not just from Lee-related jealousy: really! I hated it from a Sam perspective. I was screaming at him to grow a backbone and not let her manipulate him like this.

Yes. It was awful. And it's probably going to get much worse, you're right. I feel terrible for both of them.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on April 20th, 2008 11:19 pm (UTC)
she's the one who has less reason to fight the "new" cylon stuff--the others have family, or at least a long, long tradition of fighting and hating cylons.
It's true. That makes perfect sense. And it was hinted at in the Chief's line 'I don't do well with change'. He's resisting it harder than her. Though I also feel that ANY of them could be triggered further at any stage--it's quite nerve-wracking.

I was too busy fretting over Cally to have much of a reaction to his storyline this week
It's interesting how HARD it is to be engaged with all the plots, isn't it? The Cylon plot is probably at its most interesting ever right now and yet I could hardly force my mind to concentrate on it with Cally colonising my emotions.

Kara seemed a bit like Captain Bligh in this episode
Bligh, Ahab, Kurtz... I'm sure there are more analogies out there--all of them increasingly more disturbing.

why didn't we see hints of this earlier? Guess they're trying to excuse it with 'twenty-one days later.'
I fear you're right.
elzedelzed on April 20th, 2008 03:50 pm (UTC)
I tend to agree with everything you say, except that despite the bad wrongness of it all, (and you're right, Sam is so totally weak there - I kept expecting him to push Kara away and walk out) I thought that scene was rather hot. Dirty!Bad!Wrong! hot but nonetheless hot. Also, the shipful of hot sweaty pilots with glistening muscles was... rrrrowr. I wouldn't mind a tour of the Demetrius...

But yes to your analysis of the Cally/Tory/Galen stuff (Tory's Cylon shove of Cally onto the deck once she had Nicky was chilling); I totally felt for Cally, who normally annoys me, all the way through this (and poor Tyrol, who whether he knows the truth or not must feel absolutely crushed). And I adored Lee, feeling his way through his first few days as a politician, facing Laura, and Zarek, and determined not to be manipulated or outsmarted by either. I bet Laura's defence of the "draft" was just quick thinking, but it achieved the necessary goal of providing oversight on this crucial matter.

Kara, though, is getting rather frustrating. I love that Gaeta's on board the Demetrius, though.

Sigh. Am loving this 4th season, really.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on April 20th, 2008 11:25 pm (UTC)
I kept expecting him to push Kara away and walk out
It really makes me wonder about why he didn't. It hints to me at greater pyschological vulnerability than I'd previously attributed to him. I wish I could find it hot: I just found it really sad. Sad and disturbing.

I totally felt for Cally, who normally annoys me, all the way through this (and poor Tyrol, who whether he knows the truth or not must feel absolutely crushed)
Yeah, I've been thinking more and more about Tyrol now (usually he'd hold more of my attention than Cally) and I think it's REALLY disturbing that his Cylon identity has resulted in the death of his wife. Even if he doesn't know she found out about it, it caused the marital breakdown and he left her on her own popping pills. He must feel responsible. And creepily, he should. And he must think about to what degree he's been furthering a Cylon agenda by breeding with her. It's just all so HORRIBLE.

I love that Gaeta's on board the Demetrius, though.
For a brief glorious moment I thought Gaeta was the ONLY other person on the Demetrius with her. That would have been the funniest shit ever. I would SO have preferred those two driving each other mad to Kara's cast of millions, but never mind...
the plucky young girl who helps the Doctor: kara considersalissabobissa on April 20th, 2008 04:35 pm (UTC)
I agree with the majority of this. Cally was not at all sympathetic to me until I really started loving the Chief upon my series rewatch. I stopped worrying and loved the Cally basically because she seemed to make Chief happy and give him what he needed: a family, even if the circumstances of the beginning of that family were questionable. So I found her storyline in this ep compelling too, especially her scene with Doc Cottle. It felt very real and like something she'd naturally confess to him.

I find it convincing that a human in Cally's position (unbeknownst to them married to a Cylon with a Cybrid child) would suffer a psych break when they discovered the truth.
Yeah. This is the girl who felt so betrayed for Chief's sake that she killed Boomer. She tends to have emotional reactions, so it would have made sense to me without the meds.

I also trust Lee not to be just Zarek's puppet, just as he's not Laura's.
Oh I feel like such a bad Lee girl for being scared he's being played by Zarek. I really want to believe he's not and that Zarek is just recognizing the same sense of justice and right and wrong in him that Romo Lampkin did when he manipulated Lee, but Lee's idealistic notions worry me a little, though I don't think they should. I think I should trust in all these wonderful qualities about him to help him stay his own man amongst all the agendas, but really, I think my fangirling is overshadowing my reason and wants so desperately to protect him, even though I know he's very capable of doing it himself. *sigh* Look what my Lee love has turned me into. :)

It grossed me out MASSIVELY.
I'm a Kara girl and I'm still trying to puzzle out what the hell she's doing, so all I'll say at this point is that I agree 100% strictly from a Kara POV without any shipper feeling involved. As for the rest of Kooky Kara, the girl is making my head hurt just as much as my heart for a change.

Edited at 2008-04-20 10:39 pm (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing challengebop_radar on April 20th, 2008 11:33 pm (UTC)
It felt very real and like something she'd naturally confess to him.
Yeah, I loved the scene with Cottle. I liked that she was admitting she was a bit fucked up. I've been annoyed by Cally when no-one's called her on her actions. But in this ep she didn't let herself off the hook.

She tends to have emotional reactions, so it would have made sense to me without the meds.
Definitely. But I accept the meds as a method the writers used to put the audience 'in' Cally's perspective. I sort of see why they used it.

I think I should trust in all these wonderful qualities about him to help him stay his own man amongst all the agendas, but really, I think my fangirling is overshadowing my reason and wants so desperately to protect him, even though I know he's very capable of doing it himself
Hee, that's very cute, and what you describe sounds very familiar to me. Yet I'm in a very zen place with Lee at the moment: I think he's stronger than ever before. And while I think he will stumble and get led along by Zarek for a bit, I think he'll come into his own again as he starts to read the lay of the political landscape. It's very early days. I think it will be an interesting journey.

As for the rest of Kooky Kara, the girl is making my head hurt just as much as my heart for a change.
She's tough. :( Though dualbunny has an excellent description below of what I think the writers were trying to achieve with Kara in this episode. I don't necessarily think it was successful, but I do agree with her that that's what the intention was.
canadiangirl_86 on April 20th, 2008 04:47 pm (UTC)
Hmm, so I'm not sure that I'm with the majority on this episode, in that I thought it was definitely decent, but I still didn't care enough about Cally for her scenes to really affect me too much. It was more the Chief that I found myself sympathizing with. I've honestly never found anything remotely interesting about Cally. Still creepy as hell when she was heading toward that airlock, don't get me wrong, but I'm not exactly upset over her death. Right now I'm more disturbed that the final four are capable of this kind of thing, because I was so under the impression that they would be fundamentally different from the other seven - in a good way! I know it could just be Tory that heads for the dark side, but it sure doesn't seem that way. We know Chief is going to be off his rocker in a major way now, and Sam!

Sam, Sam, Sam. Yeah, I found the sex scene hot (I won't lie) but it was definitely disturbing as well. The parallels with the Leoben paint dream had to have been intentional and just adds another layer of creepiness. And I'm not sure how I feel about Sammy heading down this path, and what this means for his relationship with Kara. I'm pretty confident that this storyline will end with him redeeming himself for any crazy shit he pulls while exploring his true nature, but I also worry about the stereotypical story of the obstacle to a major ship (i.e. piloticians) being the evil guy that needs to be put down. But I know that this show is more complex than that so I probably should put more trust in RDM and co.

Beyond that, I don't know WHAT to make of Kara in this episode. She seems to be losing it, but not in the same way she was in the first two eps of the season.

Kara was SO weird in this episode. Aside from being just plain awful to Sam (even though he's a big boy and could've walked away or put a stop to it the way Lee did in Scar), I'm with you in not understanding where this disconnect she feels came from, because it certainly wasn't there in the first two episodes. My wank is that this feeling arose as her connection to Earth has faded. So it's possible that they're going the wrong way. I'm not sure, though, because there were apparently two instances of the Orion constellation being in the background, implying that they're nearing our galaxy - or at least Galactica and the Cylons are. She just seemed very cold in this episode, and even though she's been pretty terrible with certain characters in the past, I've always felt like there was a heap of feeling and emotion behind it that helps you understand her motivation. I just don't want her to turn into season 6 Buffy, because she was channelling her in major ways in this episode. *shudder* Probably Jane Espenson on the writing stafff. >:(

Can't he see how that's going to fuck with Kara's mind when she finds out?

Do we really think Kara would hurt Sam if she found out? Maybe I have too much faith in Kara's love for him and not enough understanding of her hatred of cylons but I SO don't want to believe this to be true. When she said she'd shoot him between the eyes, I definitely dismissed her words. But her nutty behaviour in this past episode makes me second guess that assumption. :S
canadiangirl_86 on April 20th, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)

I loved the Lee-Zarek scene: I thought it was terrific. Straight away, Zarek revealed both his agenda and some hard truths

I've never been a huge Zarek fan, but their scene together was completely awesome. I thought Zarek easily had the best line, "A tyrant craves power for its own sake. And all Laura wants...is to save us all." Someone on TWOP posted a wonderful quote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- "God in the Dock" (1948), C.S. Lewis


It's just fascinating, because that is exactly what Zarek was saying. He knows Laura has good intentions, but if her goal is to find everyone salvation, there's no limit to the justifications for dictatorial power in her mind.

OK, I wrote an essay, I'll stop now!
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 20th, 2008 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - raincitygirl on April 21st, 2008 05:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 20th, 2008 11:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - canadiangirl_86 on April 21st, 2008 12:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 02:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Allison: cally/chieffrolicndetour on April 20th, 2008 05:53 pm (UTC)
I was freaking out right with her,

Seriously, talk about the wrong thing to say. It would have been stupidly insensitive even if he weren't a Cylon, since the fact that he's basically abandoned her with the one child is clearly fueling her breakdown, but since he is? I I didn't really mind when she wrenched him. ;)

It made emotional sense.

I never thought I'd have so much sympathy for a woman's decision to kill her child. :/ And I'm so glad she got her moment of redemption at the end, but it also turned Tory's act from dark gray to black. Ack.

Is that really what it feels like for them?

I don't know, and now it's really going to bother me. My very tentative interpretation is that accepting her Cylonhood, and embracing it (as none of the others have yet done) has liberated Tory from her already not that strict conscience, and that's what's causing the heady sensations. Because so far she's the only one who's talked like that, and she's also the character we know least about.

And why are all the female Cylons so sexualised?

Seriously. Like you say, if it were just her I could totally write it off as a coping mechanism, but since it's all of the Cylon women it starts to look really icky gender-role wise. I suspect it's simply because the actresses are all so beautiful that of course the writers want to play up their sexuality, but that doesn't make it any less problematic.

There is no doubt that Tory is a Cylon.

To me, she's worse than a Cylon. The Cylons I can forgive for the same reasons I can forgive the humans for their cruelty towards them, because both sides have so thoroughly dehumanized (wish I had a better word) the other that they are incapable of empathy. When Cylons have started to identify more with humans, they've shown the ability to change. But Tory doesn't have that excuse. She just barely discovered that she was a Cylon and she switches to complete lack of empathy so quickly?

I think the death will look like suicide because Cally had already opened the thing to airlock herself from the inside. Maybe Tory put the baby back, or left him outside the airlock so it'll look like Cally was going to take him with her but changed her mind.

I'm facepalming with you re: the Demetrius crew.

When she came bouncing out of that viper and in the intensity of her scenes with Bill and Lee and even Laura, there was no sense of disconnection.

I KNOW! It's like they completely changed her characterization and the effect of her death/resurrection between episodes. There had better be a reason for it that will make sense or else it's seriously weak writing.

I hated the Sam/Kara sex scene. And not just from Lee-related jealousy: really!

I hated it too. And yeah, why would anyone be jealous or want her anywhere near Lee? Usually, no matter what Kara does she has at least some of my sympathy. And while she was cruel to both Sam and Lee at times, it was always mitigated by my belief that she really did love both of them (in however different ways) and she was hurting herself as well. But yeah, if you reversed the genders it would be sick, and it still is regardless. (I do think that it would be even worse if Sam didn't have the size/strength advantage. At least she's not actually raping him. Emotionally though? Horribly abusive and gross.) There's a lot I love about this show, but Kara is my central character emotionally and it might wreck it for me if they make it so I can no longer sympathize with her.

Okay, that's embarrassingly emo for one scene!

But if she finds out Sam continued to sleep with her even when he knew he was a Cylon, she's going to feel even more betrayed, right?

I don't know. I need the writers to redeem Kara a bit with regard to how she's treated Sam. For me, having him "turn evil" like Tory wouldn't be enough, because Kara had no idea he was a Cylon, so it doesn't mitigate her actions. (It would also disappoint me because I like Sam.) So my hope is that when she does eventually find out, she'll have evolved enough to forgive him. Forgiving something as enormous as that, for Kara, would balance the scales somewhat. That's just what I want though.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee frak betide!bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:18 am (UTC)
It would have been stupidly insensitive even if he weren't a Cylon, since the fact that he's basically abandoned her with the one child is clearly fueling her breakdown, but since he is? I I didn't really mind when she wrenched him
Me neither. I was all 'woo! go Cally!' I can see how from Galen's pov he's just in this panicky horrible place and he's losing touch with reality and he's trying to reach out to Cally and his family to ground him again. But still. Insensitive male syndrome x 100.

I never thought I'd have so much sympathy for a woman's decision to kill her child. :/
Yeah I kind of love that she was going to kill him. It's horribly dark, but anything less would have seemed like a cop out on this show, I think.

her Cylonhood, and embracing it (as none of the others have yet done) has liberated Tory from her already not that strict conscience, and that's what's causing the heady sensations
That seems like a reasonable interpretation. *nods*

suspect it's simply because the actresses are all so beautiful that of course the writers want to play up their sexuality, but that doesn't make it any less problematic
No. It makes it worse. And why ISN'T there a cranky old ugly female Cavill equivalent? Grrr.

She just barely discovered that she was a Cylon and she switches to complete lack of empathy so quickly?
Yeah, it was totally disturbing. I think I'm hoping she had another Cylon switch flick in her head because the alternative, as you describe, is even more chilling: that she was this amoral as a human as well.

I'm facepalming with you re: the Demetrius crew.
I so thought she'd be on her own!! I've been feeling sorry for poor lonely Kara all week!!

There had better be a reason for it that will make sense or else it's seriously weak writing.
Agreed. :(

why would anyone be jealous or want her anywhere near Lee?
Heh, yeah, not when she's in this crazy self-destructive spiral of violence, thanks.

do think that it would be even worse if Sam didn't have the size/strength advantage. At least she's not actually raping him. Emotionally though? Horribly abusive and gross
Yeah, totally. But I also get kind of annoyed when women get away with violence against men on the excuse that they are 'weaker'. We saw Kara belt Sam across the face and knock him unconscious a couple of week's ago. We're supposed to buy that she's physically powerful enough to hold her own boxing Lee... yes, Anders is bigger than her, but she's got an emotional hold over him as well, so I think I find the violence more disturbing because that might stop him striking back at her. Of course also his own conscience would. I hope. But dear god, she's playing with fire.

There's a lot I love about this show, but Kara is my central character emotionally and it might wreck it for me if they make it so I can no longer sympathize with her.
It's really interesting to me to hear you struggled with that scene as well--it kind of makes me feel better (selfishly) because I was just so devastated by it for/about Kara. But on the other hand, I'm so sorry it caused you to disconnect from your pov character. I hope that this was a one-off ep of them trying to show Kara through other people's eyes (as dualbunny astutely suggests below), rather than an indication of what the rest of the season will be like.

I need the writers to redeem Kara a bit with regard to how she's treated Sam.
I think I need that too.
postscript on Kara/Sam - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: postscript on Kara/Sam - frolicndetour on April 24th, 2008 01:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: postscript on Kara/Sam - bop_radar on April 25th, 2008 06:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - frolicndetour on April 24th, 2008 12:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 25th, 2008 06:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Laura/Lee - Promo Art - Nyusziasta77 on April 20th, 2008 07:18 pm (UTC)
but all the female Cylons have developed sexual fixations with humans, and they all play up their sexuality (in different forms) to manipulate people.

It seems the male Cylons have sexual fixations too. Leoben and Sam, immediately upon meeting her, we're drawn to Kara. Tyrol and Boomer were hot and heavy (and wait until she discovers she was sleeping with one of the final five!). And Tigh stuck with Ellen even though she was catting around on him throughout their marriage. Actually, I think this proves Adama is not a Cylon since we have no evidence he's had sex since Zak's birth. ;)

Given how she relied on him in the early days of her presidency, it's particularly galling.

I couldn't agree more! ;-)

She says 'everything seems so far away' but I didn't get ANY sense of that from her in the last two episodes. When she came bouncing out of that viper and in the intensity of her scenes with Bill and Lee and even Laura, there was no sense of disconnection.

Good point. It seems she only feels disconnected now because of the lack of faith so many have in her. If they all believed her would she feel the same way?

If the genders were reversed, having a man scream at his wife that he only married her because he was safe, that the marriage was meaningless, then have him attack her and then insist on sex would seriously gross people out--I'm sure. And this grosses me out just as much.

Kara's actions toward Sam bothered a lot of people. Sadly, I think the writers felt they were being progressive with the role reversal, but it's shitty behavior whether it's a man or a woman. And Sam apparently left his balls back on Caprica. :p
canadiangirl_86 on April 21st, 2008 12:02 am (UTC)
Actually, I think this proves Adama is not a Cylon since we have no evidence he's had sex since Zak's birth.

To quote Aaron Douglas, "Argh, I'm seeing things I can't unsee!" ;)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
Dualbunny: Roslin - almost corruptdualbunny on April 20th, 2008 08:11 pm (UTC)
I'm with you on pretty much everything. :)

Though I'm not surprised at all that Laura wouldn't be willing to budge on suggesting that Kara is another possible way to Earth. I don't think she ever would have backed Bill's decision. Prior to the election, she regained the support of people largely based on her new religious standing. Even though not everyone in the fleet believes that, I don't think she feels she can afford to throw its validity into doubt. And if Kara isn't explicitly in her scrolls, especially with how Lara suspects she's a cylon, then to Laura Kara's nothing but competition at best, and an ambush at worst.

I'm actually curious to see what they'll do with Laura. So far she's been able to mostly pull herself back out of the trap of being corrupted by her power. While we'd all like to believe she'll continue to do that, I'm not sure it's actually realistic in terms of what happens to most people in that kind of position. Especially with any sort of religous fervor behind them.

As for the way Kara was portrayed in the episode, I really think it was supposed to feel like we were seeing her through everyone else's eyes, as opposed to our omniscient viewer perspective. That shot of her standing up on the walkway is what clinched that for because it was so different from the way Kara has *ever* been portrayed in this show. We've always been with her, on her side, in her confidences, even when she was having breakdowns like in Scar.

I felt like that closeness was purposely destroyed in this episode. Even the shots of her doing the calculations felt distanced to me . And the scene with Sam felt like it was through his eyes, which are pretty screwed up at the moment to begin with.

Now *why* they decided to go this route, I have no idea. Because they could probably. Maybe they think there are watchers out there that really aren't sure whether she's a bad thing for the fleet. It seems hard to believe that fans would ever think that without it being spelled out undeniably, but TPTB may think differently.

But the fact that they went so far to visually illustrate how Cally felt *inside*, just makes me think they decided to contrast that with how Kara looks from the outside. Again with some over-the-top-ish visuals and dialogue. They were obviously paralleling the two women based on their cylon husbands, but aside from that one slightly out of place flash of her Viper that Kara seemed to see in her head, I felt like they were portraying their stories from very different angles.
Dionusia: kara's apartmentdionusia on April 21st, 2008 12:04 am (UTC)
I really think it was supposed to feel like we were seeing her through everyone else's eyes, as opposed to our omniscient viewer perspective. That shot of her standing up on the walkway is what clinched that for because it was so different from the way Kara has *ever* been portrayed in this show. We've always been with her, on her side, in her confidences, even when she was having breakdowns like in Scar.

I felt like that closeness was purposely destroyed in this episode. Even the shots of her doing the calculations felt distanced to me . And the scene with Sam felt like it was through his eyes, which are pretty screwed up at the moment to begin with.


I love this and I think all your observations are dead on. As for why they might be taking this route -- I agree that they are making her seem more mysterious and sinister figure, but it also made me think that it could be related to the fact that Kara doesn't feel connected to her own self. She says it feels like she's "watching herself" from the outside. This level of disorientation seems enhanced by the way they shot her scenes.

I like what you say about the contrast between getting all of Cally's inner world and none of Kara's, too. Brilliant!
(no subject) - canadiangirl_86 on April 21st, 2008 12:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wisteria_ on April 24th, 2008 03:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
anni_erieanni_erie on April 20th, 2008 09:33 pm (UTC)
I was very disturbed by Cally's death. I was sort of starting to like Tory last episode- trying to find out who she was, I was on board with that, even with the weird Baltar crying sex- but this was insane. Taking the baby out of his mother's arms and then just blowing her away. It was a death with no dignity. I never had the problems with Cally that others did- marrying a guy who beat her up who was still getting over his last girlfriend (who she killed) which I was teeth-gnashingly angry with her about, but I forgave all that because she was SO young. I almost felt like the Chief took advantage of her when they started a relationship, she had such an irrational hero-crush of him and she was, what, half his age and he always patted her on the head like a kid when Boomer was still around. And then how he kept going out drinking when he had a wife and a baby at home that really could've used support from him. Cally's life seemed so sad to me. It just sucks, to me, that she has to die like that but he gets to live on and get all this sympathy.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:51 am (UTC)
Yeah, I liked Tory after people explained her to me. :) But now? Not so much.

I almost felt like the Chief took advantage of her when they started a relationship, she had such an irrational hero-crush of him and she was, what, half his age and he always patted her on the head like a kid when Boomer was still around
I know! It was kind of awful. I never knew what to make of that aspect of Chief.

Cally's life seemed so sad to me. It just sucks, to me, that she has to die like that but he gets to live on and get all this sympathy.
Is he getting a lot from fandom? He's not getting a lot from me. I do see that he's having a breakdown about being a Cylon and what it means but I kind of think he should have one after what he did to Cally.
CapnZebbie: stalkerkittycapnzebbie on April 20th, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC)
Another great meta! I'm glad that you're so articulate, and able to express these ideas about BSG (as well as SV). This episoded left me almost completely speechless.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on April 21st, 2008 01:51 am (UTC)
Thanks! It was a pretty full-on ep.
Dionusia: kara's destiny is to kick your assdionusia on April 21st, 2008 12:15 am (UTC)
Hi, WT! Great review. I'll be back to say more later once I've finished my story (damn deadlines) but I did want to say word to your observation that there would probably be a lot more outrage over the Kara-Sam scene if the genders were reversed. I don't even think that what Kara says is 100% truth, but it's part of the truth...the ugliest part, and he doesn't deserve that. I wished he had resisted her and walked away.

it doesn't seem to have been consistently portrayed, which makes me wonder if TPTB are trying to have their cake and eat it too: have Kara be 'different' and disconnected but also be able to nail big emotional confrontation scenes.

My take on it is that those jumps Galactica kept taking did make her lose her feel for the way to Earth. So, having tried for 22 straight days to get it back, and failing--I think she's being worn down by her own disorientation and self-doubt. Being surrounded by a crew that is starting to believe her and trust her less and less is only making the situation worse.

I do also wonder if she's some kind of...reincarnated soul? In contrast to the lack of connection she feels to her own body, she'd said that she could feel and taste and smell Earth so vividly, like she'd been there before. Given the cycle of time myth arc, I think she actually has--not just in her Viper, but previously in time.

I guess I would say that this is all getting mystical, and we may get more explanations later.

I'll be back for more later! I especially want to talk more about Lee. (You know he was so like that overachieving kid who comes early to the first day of class in that Quorum scene...hehe.)
canadiangirl_86 on April 21st, 2008 12:20 am (UTC)
Given the cycle of time myth arc, I think she actually has--not just in her Viper, but previously in time.

Yep, I've seen the (probably correct) theory that she's originally a child of Earth and a member of the Thirteenth Tribe. As long as she's still our Kara, that would be totally cool with me.
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 02:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 21st, 2008 02:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dionusia on May 1st, 2008 04:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 2nd, 2008 02:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
m_a_r_i_k_s: Kara_S2m_a_r_i_k_s on April 21st, 2008 01:38 am (UTC)
Thank you for the great thoughts about the eppy, Bop. They're very interesting to read, it's just that often I don't have time and possibility to dive into your reviews.

I found this episode very different from the first two, in some ways it's slowliness reminded me of S1, in dialogues, in the way it felt like a buildup to further characters development, especially with regard to Tyrol-Tigh-Tory storyline and the political one. On the other hand there were such inconsistencies as you mentioned...

But that kind of doesn't work because if this is how she feels now, then surely she's been like that since she got back from Earth, since she was resurrected?

Yeah, Kara's behavior seemed way too different from the one we saw in the beginning and the fact that 22 days have passed is not enough of explanation to me. I get that she's going more and more crazy being unable to find the road to Earth, but I want to see her act in this so called "state of detachment" and not just when it comes to some wild animalistic sex with Sam. So far the only detachment we saw was during her interactions with Anders in "He That Believeth In Me" and now... and it's personal, it can apply only to her lack of personal emotional involvement with him. But there was no sign of it with Lee, Bill or Roslin. She seemed deeply offended by Bill's distrust, very engaged in her new mission to convince him and Roslin and to lead the fleet in the right direction. And with Lee, well, that was hands down the most beautiful scene of mutual understanding love and need - I would dare to say that no other Kara scene in BSG has had such an open demonstration of her deepest *attachment*!
So yeah, Moore, please, give me a break and show us some clues to what happened to Kara already and to what's happening with her now. I don't think she's been artificially resurrected or cloned and grown in the test-tube or anything like that. I'm still convinced that it's the very same Kara we know from mini till S3, she's just changed in many ways. It seems like a part of her has awoken and now she's trying to readjust to this new way of reality perception. Her words like 'Harder, especially now that things are so clear to me...' or 'I'm not the same girl you married', her behavior with Lee - all of that imply that she's overcome a great deal of fear and denial, many of those psychological barriers coming from her childhood, that prevented her from seeing the truth of her feelings towards the people she cares about or facing it, admitting to herself.

But the thing that I find realistic (although not pleasant to see) is that in this episode she's trying to deal with her new problems the same way she used to - and falls into the same old patterns by using Sam as a frack buddy. I think that is saddingly consistent, because it would be unnatural and artificial to see her completely changing as if a magic wand had waved, leaving behind all those Starbuck's mechanisms of coping. I hope at least we have a chance to witness how the positive changes in her are crystallizing; the very process that I'm sure couldn't be instantaneous.

I didn't like the way she treated Sam at all and the sex thereafter, but I liked the part of her saying out loud that he was the safe and easy option. Her form of phrasing was shitty but the main point had the major weight of truth about their relationship's origins.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on May 4th, 2008 03:30 am (UTC)
hey're very interesting to read, it's just that often I don't have time and possibility to dive into your reviews.
Thank you! It's great to hear from you and I hope you forgive me being slow to reply: I have been a bit sick and it's hard to concentrate.

So far the only detachment we saw was during her interactions with Anders in "He That Believeth In Me" and now... and it's personal, it can apply only to her lack of personal emotional involvement with him. But there was no sign of it with Lee, Bill or Roslin.
That's definitely how I felt too.

I'm still convinced that it's the very same Kara we know from mini till S3, she's just changed in many ways.
Absolutely. I just need it to be a bit clearer. I think the writers were trying to be clever with this episode and show us what Kara seemed like to others (specifically Anders): aloof, cold, crazy, detached. But what I need/want is to know what's going on with her internally!

This episode has settled with me a little better now (and partly because I got to discuss it with my friend supacat who has a good handle on Kara), and I think it's clear that Kara is seeing things a lot more clear-sightedly now that she's back. With Sam that means facing some hard truths about their marriage, and I can understand her finding that 'unreal'.

I think that is saddingly consistent, because it would be unnatural and artificial to see her completely changing as if a magic wand had waved, leaving behind all those Starbuck's mechanisms of coping. I hope at least we have a chance to witness how the positive changes in her are crystallizing; the very process that I'm sure couldn't be instantaneous.
You're right--as hard as it is to watch, it's far more realistic that she's falling back on these old behaviours (though they seem less satisfying to her now) than if she suddenly acted in a completely new way.
m_a_r_i_k_s: black&whitem_a_r_i_k_s on April 21st, 2008 01:41 am (UTC)
And I absolutely agree with you that Sam's behavior came off as utterly weak and stubborn. One of my problems with

Anders has always been his lack of self-respect, which is screaming from the screen in this scene. I wonder when he's gonna realise it and admit that essentially his marriage with Kara was condemned to an emotional disaster from the beginning and has no future.

Speaking of the falling into the same old patterns, I think there is a certain symmetry to the beginnings of Pilots' new paths. Whereas Kara doesn't seem to be able to deal with her frustration differently, Lee is walking on a razorblade with Roslin almost the way he used to in Crossroads, letting the vice president (previously - Romo) manipulate him into using the trump card which has been given to him from the outer source after being personally offended. The difference is that now the offender is not his father, it's Roslin. But just as then - the offence is not only personal, because on the one hand it affects his come-to-be as Caprican delegate, a man who has the right to be respected by his constituents and colleagues in the Quorum, not neglected and sidelined as some greenhorn or "junior delegate". And on the other hand there is Lee's ideological reasoning... coming with his wonderful point about "...even the illusion of the idea of justice". :)

He'll listen to all sides and come to his own conclusion.

Yes, I'm sure about that - that's what Lee's been good at from the start, suffice to remember his solution of the problem in the Bastille Day. I think many people misinterpret his tendency to listen eagerly and attentively to different sides as his weakness, they take it for him being easily influenced and persuaded. That's not true. Lee has a pretty rare quality of flexibility in perception - it allows him to see the broader picture and to assess the situation as an impartial witness a lot of the times; at least to me his moral assessments often seem as unbiased as humanly possible.

Interesting thing is that now he enters the world of politics and while the question of morality and conscience in politics has always been relevant, humanity has not invented some formula how to avoid getting your hands dirty in this area yet. It is far more complex than military world - in a bad way. The world of politics has very strict rules and if one doesn't follow them, then he or she gets kicked out. And at the same time it has no rules at all. There are lines that have to be crossed in order to stay on the surface not to get swamped, sometimes these lines coincide with points of no return for the soul and personally, I don't see the Lee I know crossing them. Maybe I'm overthinking and RDM will never approach those lines in the 17 episodes that remain of S4, but it still worries me a bit.

And of course I'm very excited to see where Lee goes from here, especially in his confrontation with Roslin. The scene at the Quorum meeting is probably my favorite in this episode. Mary and Jamie just sparkle and burn in this wonderful dance of flames when they interact on screen together.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on May 4th, 2008 03:37 am (UTC)
I wonder when he's gonna realise it and admit that essentially his marriage with Kara was condemned to an emotional disaster from the beginning and has no future.
I don't know. He seems to be clinging to her as a beacon of hope for him even now. It's painful for me to watch.

I like the parallel you draw between Kara's new path and Lee's. :)

I think many people misinterpret his tendency to listen eagerly and attentively to different sides as his weakness, they take it for him being easily influenced and persuaded. That's not true. Lee has a pretty rare quality of flexibility in perception - it allows him to see the broader picture and to assess the situation as an impartial witness a lot of the times; at least to me his moral assessments often seem as unbiased as humanly possible.
I agree with you. I'm often baffled (and hurt) at people seeing that as 'weakness'. I don't see him as easily manipulated at ALL. In fact he's likely to make decisions so objectively that it's personally devastating for him (e.g. Razor or arguing with his father that the Pegasus should continue on to find Earth leaving the New Capricans behind). His big-picture vision is his strength but it comes with a heavy burden of personal sacrifice.

Maybe I'm overthinking and RDM will never approach those lines in the 17 episodes that remain of S4, but it still worries me a bit.
Don't know. It's possible that they will go there--I definitely agree that politics is a more muddied area than the military, but I also think Lee is strong enough to handle it.

The scene at the Quorum meeting is probably my favorite in this episode. Mary and Jamie just sparkle and burn in this wonderful dance of flames when they interact on screen together.
I know! they're fabulous! I'm loving seeing them in scenes together again in season 4.
m_a_r_i_k_s: presidentm_a_r_i_k_s on April 21st, 2008 01:47 am (UTC)
Given how she relied on him in the early days of her presidency, it's particularly galling.

Yeah, exactly.

I think Madame Prez is now beginning to understand what potential problem she just got. I mean with Lee who will probably become her strongest opposition. And though I'm with Lee in this - I actually feel for Laura as a person, given that her physical condition isn't going to improve.

And I *do* find that executive order really worrying, even if we buy that it was just a draft (though I think actually that was just swift thinking on Roslin's part).

I'm sure that was just a very quick reaction on her part and a brilliant attempt to win the audience and take back the reins into her hands.
Speaking of her executive order, I love how it refers to the fleet's legal system and brings back the fresh memories of Baltar's trial. And also it implies that we'll see more of Romo Lampkin in S4. Yay! :)

Zarek claims to be on Laura's side, he believes that she's trying to save all of them. But he does not like her methods of getting there.

Yes, I think Zarek really believes that Roslin does what she thinks is best for humanity and his message essentially is that her means of achieving those goals must be corrected and she must be set on the right course. What the right course is in Zarek's eyes is another very interesting matter. What is it that Zarek really wants? I get it he wants to use Lee, he probably wants him to become the one who will do what Zarek can't - because he needs to keep his position which is very close to the president while having someone who'd express his opposed opinion at the same time. But what for? Does he act from the best interests of their society community? Because I really believe Roslin does, but Zarek has always been a slippery fellow, I think he's much closer to the type that craves recognition, fame and power and whose means of control and reform as ruler's could be very dubious. You know, his past of the person who blew up a government building to get Adar's attention and make a point and the fact that he spent about 20 years in the cell, went out and basically tried to use the same methods can't simply vanish into nothingness.
I think if we were to have another election in BSG - it's quite possible that Zarek would become the first candidate for presidency and Lee the second.

Now I'd add my thoughts about Cally-Chief-Tory storyline in this episode but I think I agree with most of what you said and there's been enough of my rant for today, you're probably tired of reading all of this. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on May 4th, 2008 03:40 am (UTC)
But what for? Does he act from the best interests of their society community? Because I really believe Roslin does, but Zarek has always been a slippery fellow
I agree. I have the same concerns but I also love your idea that we could see a Zarek versus Lee presidency battle. OMG, how brilliant! *swoons* I think Zarek's playing a long game to get back on top and I don't believe he's the best person to be president, but it seems like temporarily here his concerns and Lee's mesh. I suspect they won't always and Lee will only be 'played' by Zarek as long as Zarek has democratic principles in the forefront of his focus.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on April 21st, 2008 11:44 pm (UTC)
I didn't understand her, but I felt like this episode we finally got a handle on her. Of course she had to go in order for it to happen.
I feel exactly the same way. :( Now I'm going to be worried every time I feel I'm getting real insight into a particular character...

I struggle with Tory. I need to check in with my Tory-pov friend and find out how she felt about this week's events.

I agree on the Cylons. They seem to be deliberately taking them in a direction that mirrors the humans themselves. They still do my head in though.