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29 May 2008 @ 06:38 pm
Battlestar Galactica 4.08 Sine Qua Non  
Clearly anyone that knows me will guess that I loved that episode. Thank you, BSG, for giving me hope.

A Shining Beacon of Hope, in fact! ;) Hope? Infinitely better than Faith. :D

This episode wasn't faultless, but I'm so full of squee at BSG finally focusing on a plot I'm invested in this season that I don't really care. Yup, totally unashamedly biased. ;) Because I knew this episode had been nominated for a bunch of Emmys, I did have high expectations going in, and I did have some issues with it, but overall I thought it was very good, and it certainly gave me lots of stuff I love: Lee! Romo! DOGGY! \o/ (I almost loved the doggy best of all. *g*)

So since I'm cheery for once, I'll be focusing on the good in this eppy.

Nathalie
I never really liked Nathalie, but I'm feeling a bit sad now because my favourite scene of hers was of her dying. I really loved the operating-room scene. I thought it was very compelling watching someone who once would have been able to download into a new body, struggle with her mortality. Her fear was palpable, she was so helpless, and that image of her hand reaching up to take Cottle's was so moving. In his hands it doesn't matter whether she's Cylon or human--he tries to save her, but in vain.

Chaos
I thought the Quorum scenes were an excellent way of showing in microcosm the kind of confusion that would be spreading through the fleet in the wake of these two dramatic events: the shooting of the Cylon leader and the disappearance of the human President. Of course people would be trying to work out causality and the degree to which the events were preplanned. As viewers, we know Athena was thinking only of her own child, but it would be easy for conspiracy theories to run wild, especially given how new and tenuous the human-Cylon-rebels alliance was.

Athena
I loved the Athena parts of this episode: she continues to be my favourite Cylon. :) Adama confronting her about what she had done was one of the most powerful scenes in the episode for me. I loved the way he turned from her in annoyance when she said she's had a vision. He must be getting so sick of all these women and their visions! ;) There's no way for Athena to explain logically what she's done, she acted out of fear but also out of conviction. However wrong she was, she believed with every fibre of her being that her child was in danger and she acted to protect her. I do think Athena's xenophobia against her own kind played into that fear and allowed it to run rampant though.

But god, what a heartbreaking burden to carry now--that in protecting her daughter, she might have lost her husband. Not to mention the greater political implications. I loved that Adama brought up the promise she made to him and points out that this act was one of betrayal. However, I really felt for Athena in not being allowed to have Hera with her. (And the part of me that was already pissed off at Bill for other reasons was thinking 'yeah, of course YOU wouldn't understand doing whatever it takes to save your child'.) Thank goodness he found some compassion by the end of the episode.

Tigh and Caprica
You have got to be kidding me! *blinks* Didn't see that coming. I kind of wrote off that scene where she snogged him because it was weird and icky and didn't work for me the way the writers wanted it to. I didn't extrapolate that they'd been sleeping together, but that just packs on the 'eww' and confusion for me. It shocked me enough when she called him 'Saul'. What the hell is Caprica getting out of this relationship? Is she just batty from being imprisoned? Does she see him as a way out?

The Tigh side of things I found a lot easier to understand. He sees his wife in Six's face and he is confused by it--at times he sees her as the enemy and then at times it's like Ellen is back with him. He's unbalanced and on edge. I didn't like him lashing out at her, but I could understand him doing so. It's a whole lot more horrible now that we know she's carrying his child. And hmm, I wonder what the child of a Final Five and a regular Cylon will be like.

Bill
I had a lot of Bill issues in this episode. That should come as no surprise. They started with him refusing to talk to Zarek and they carried merrily on all episode (though at least, unlike in some episodes he did redeem himself somewhat). He frustrated me, but I think he was meant to. His stubborn refusal to speak to Zarek even after Lee personally appealed to him (and how ridiculous was it that he took Lee's call and not Zarek's?!) was incredibly stupid and short-sighted. I can really do no better than borrowing Lee's words here: he was fanning the Quorum's suspicions, encouraging dissent, giving the civilians reason to hate the military, and doing nothing to stabilise the Fleet at a very politically sensitive time. It was like dealing with a ten-year-old who'd had his favourite toy taken away from him: 'I don't want to play any more. Get lost!' Honestly for most of this episode I was wondering who was the parent and who was the child.

And yes, I know he was deeply distressed about Laura's disappearance, angry at Sharon, and possibly a smidgeon worried about the pilots (but mainly Laura, let's face it). I have no issue with his emotions: they were human and normal and understandable. But I do have an issue with his actions because he's a military commander and shouldn't let his personal relationships get in the way of logical decision making. He shouldn't endanger others unnecessarily, which he started to do, and he should also think of the whole fleet. I would like to think Laura would be appalled at him.

Bill basically held the Quorum, the whole fleet, ransom in this episode. By refusing to acknowledge Zarek, he made Zarek more powerful, fed him fuel for his argument that the government they'd had wasn't a true government but 'a tacit agreement between a military strongman and a political strongwoman to rule together by fiat'. And you know what? There's a lot of truth in that. But in that brief snippet of radio interview that we heard, we also heard the start of Zarek's solution--a civil defence force. Zarek's positioning the military and the civilians as in opposition to each other, and that could have devastating consequences. And Bill only made things worse.

Lee for president
It was painfully obvious from the word go that Lee was going to be the only workable alternative. As Romo says, the outcome was inevitable from the start. I It was also adorably Lee-like that he took a ridiculously long time to see that himself. Also, it annoys me that the main reason it had to be Lee was that Adama would actually pick up the phone for him. Because Bill isn't interested in democracy, he never has been. He doesn't care about the civilian population or their issues and it's only through his personal relationship with Roslin that he's grown amenable to her appeals. He likes her, not the Quorum. Zarek would be particularly galling to him, but I can't imagine him falling over himself to connect with any other president either. It would take someone very forceful and determined to make an impact on Bill--and noone could make the same impact Roslin did. At the very least it could take ages to establish a working relationship. Whereas with Lee the relationship's already there. He doesn't like listening to Lee, but he does do so on more occasions than he'd like to admit, I think.

I don't like to think Lee got the office just because of Adama--I cling to the fact that he had to be seen as worthy in the eyes of the rest of the Quorum. I do believe Lee's the best possible interim president and the one most likely to keep stability in the Fleet while things are in crisis. Since I assume Laura will be back at some stage, it probably won't come up, but if he were to stay president I would really desperately want him to be elected properly, because this feels very much like he became president by default.

Political ambition
The issue of political ambition and legitmacy is a complex one in this episode, one with a lot of greys and very little black and white. Zarek clings to the fact that he was legitimately elected--and he's got a strong case. He was elected, Laura chose him as vice president; she was always running the risk that if something happened to her, he'd end up as interim president. He says he got Lee appointed 'to do some good', but he's not as selfless as he makes out--he is angry at Lee because he thought he had him on side. And he's only going to me more angry now that it's Lee who replaced him.

I am glad, though, that it was made very clear that Lee didn't start out as self-seeking. He even sought out Romo to help run through candidates! Whee! But in his very determination to do so he showed exactly the qualities that make him the perfect candidate. For starters, he's not jaded or defeatist. He doesn't want to just sit around and wait for things to fall apart. He can see the domino effect that's being set in motion and all his instincts are screaming at him to step in and avert it before things get worse.

Romo was the perfect foil for Lee in this episode. He displays the contrasting attitude to Lee, calling the problem they're trying to solve a 'losing case'. Lee, on the other hand, is compelled to deal with the problem. He's animated while Romo is laconic. They played off each other perfectly and I liked the way they genuinely connected yet were both clearly in completely different headspaces. (And oh, that moment when Lee kicked the cat's bowl and we see that the cat's just in Romo's head! *gulp*)

They did provide lots of room for reflecting on the issues raised by this crisis, one of which is how do you balance the ambition to wield power with the unselfish motivation of acting in the collective best interests. I loved Romo's observation that Laura is a study in repressed ambition, just like Lee. Yup, they're two of a kind and that's why he's her perfect successor.

I must admit that I am getting a kick out of having Lee see what it's like to be on the other side of the fence. That shot of Galactica jumping away when they didn't know why was fabulous at demonstrating the vulnerability of the Fleet and the way that without a working alliance between the military command and the presidency (aka someone to keep Adama in check) things would just fall apart.

Chasing a mystery
Tigh was fabulous in this episode. I usually find him infuriating, but I actually started thinking he was the one better fitted to command. Even though he's a Cylon. Even though he's batshit. Because Adama was seriously losing it and I was so relieved when he admitted that.

The confrontation scene between Adama and Tigh was another highlight of the episode--and one that had some parallels with the Athena-Adama confrontation. In both instances, Adama struggles to understand the destructive actions of a member of his crew who he trusted completely. Both Athena and Tigh are 'loyal' in their hearts, but they also act selfishly, driven by their personal fears. But Adama too is driven by his fears and that's why it was brilliant to see Tigh call him on his behaviour. Yay, Tigh! But wow, there was something really sad and pathetic (in the true 'pathos' sense) about seeing two old friends beat each other up. They're both batshit in their own ways. And aww, they broke the ship again. Hee!

Adama turning over command to Tigh was another fabulous scene. I particularly liked Tigh talking about his previous stint as a complete disaster. Er, yeah. And I actually found myself agreeing, at least in part, with Adama when he said Tigh wasn't the man he was then. That surprised me because I've always been very critical of Tigh. Their hug even made me tear up!

Of course Adama followed up his pragmatic relinquishing of power with a melodramtic gesture of pointless heroics (except that no doubt they will be legitimised by the show!). He insisted on pursuing his own personal hero/suicide quest. Sigh. I'm sorry. I know I'm supposed to be moved by that and I know it'll all be validated by having a big teary Roslin/Adama reunion (with Helo back too: kthx!). But I'm with Lee: it looked a lot lik suicide or an old man's stupid stubbornness. And what the hell was that story about his first mission in space saying? 'I'm a fear junkie'? The bit about not being able to live without Laura was a lot easier to understand (for both Lee and me!) And I do understand it on some level. I guess Bill has been struggling all season with the idea of losing Laura and he can't give up on her, can't bear the idea of letting her down. Fair enough. I'm just relieved he's not endangering everyone else in the process.

And Kara and Lee seeing him off was rather lovely.

The stupidest thing about Tigh taking over command? All that energy expended on finding a president Adama would talk to, only to wind up with it being Tigh intsead. And Tigh and Lee aren't exactly buddies. Though I guess I can imagine Tigh listening to Lee with half an ear 'for the old man's sake'.

Exercise in futility
I have to say that I had a lot of sympathy for Romo. He says it's all an exercise in futility, and since that's kind of what I feel about the whole of Season 4 (if not the whole show), I really connected with that feeling. This show definitely does keep bringing up the question of 'what is the point anyway?' and did so again in this episode. Romo reflects on the pilots looking like they've given up hope. That felt like an echo of Lee talking about the Quorum having given up hope. Has the whole fleet given up? Lee himself has been there, wondering why it's worth continuing to fight, but he's come out the other side all the more determined. Perhaps that's what makes him such a great leader: he can empathise but not get bogged down in their emotions.

Which brings me to the brilliant confrontation between Zarek and Lee. It was perfect on every level for me. I loved both sides equally because they were each valid. I don't think Lee set out to seek office, but does he want it deep down? Yes. Does he have moments where he thinks he'd be the best man for the job? Of course. He's also pragmatist enough that he must see that he's the bridge to Adama they need so badly. That would be very hard to keep denying, even though his personal humility demands it.

Putting him at gunpoint actually worked really well, I think, to push Lee to connect with that part of himself that does want to just take control himself, step in and fix things, and that has the personal charisma to do so. In talking Romo down, he drew on some of the same strength and beliefs he drew on during Baltar's trial. He points out that 'somewhere along the line, we've all made decisions that have saved our lives at the expense of others'. Lee certainly has--so when he speaks about this, he speaks from the heart. He's lived and breathed that reality every day and been tortured by the burden of carrying it. Lee could have been talking to himself in that scene when he asked 'you think you're unique? do you think your sins are so special?' Oh, Lee, you SOOOO need to hear that yourself sometimes, honey!

It was brilliant to see Lee so mature in this scene, so clear-sighted, with an articulate argument about faith in the right of humanity to continue to live as being a choice, not a given. That really spoke to me because it many ways I kind of agree with Romo--the humans can be (en masse) really disgustingly cruel and destructive. Lee's chosen to believe in the potential of humanity for goodness--and in the potential in himself for creating a difference. (That's so inspiring! Whee! \o/) And oddly, more than anything else this season this scene between two humans did more than all the Cylon scenes combined to make me reflect instinctively on the parallel between humans and Cylons. Cylons too need to put their past behind them and believe in their capacity for real change (not just lipservice). How much chance does either race stand? On their own, let alone together? Who knows. But they need leaders who believe they can.

Hanging on to hope
Romo's scene with Adama was a very interesting one, not least because it got to the heart of the episode. Romo talks about people holding onto hope any way they can. It's true. And so often that hope comes in the form of a significant other--a fact which was illustrated by having two pilots hugging each other goodbye. So Roslin is Adama's hope--if I cared about Bill much, that would be very moving and also deeply tragic because hi, she's dying anyway. I guess Caprica is Tigh's hope, Hera is Athena's hope, and poor Romo... Romo had cat. :( F
From my own ship perspective I thought it was a sad sign of the writers having lost interest in the Kara/Lee ship that they didn't bother to use those two as an example of the overall episode theme. They could have done so so easily--two lines would have been enough (Kara congratulating Lee on becoming President?), a little 'touching base' with how those two separate destinies were going. Sigh. I'm reduced to putting my shipper thoughts in 'small' because they're so irrelevant to the show.

Back to stuff I liked... I'm sure some people would have hated it but I loved the pets plot with Romo. *sniffles* Poor kitty! :(( He was Romo's hope and he's not quite ready to let go of it, despite what he says--he continues to carry it around with him even though it's dead and stinking. :(( Poor Romo, like Tigh who lost Ellen and Adama who lost Roslin, he's going a bit batshit from losing his touchstone, and it's also triggering him to relive his guilt about abandonning his family.

But Lee has the solution! :D He gave him JAKE! Resistance doggy! \o/ Oh, you don't know how much delight this gave me. Although I did momentarily start to get excited that it was Lee's dog (how great would that be?!! If he can't have Kara, he can at least have a doggy! Puhleeeeeeeeeeeease writers? He needs unconditional love!). But then of course him selflessly gifting him to Romo is far more Lee-like and awesome. *nods* Jake himself was completely adorable, of course and I hope we get to see him and Romo make a little cameo later in the season so we can see them doing well together. :D

Next week I'm guessing (unspoilt and want to stay that way please!) that we'll find out what happened to Roslin and Gaius. And we've probably used up our Lee rations for now, alas. But I am still grateful.

ETA: I heart Leland (hilarious though it is!).
ETA2: I want an icon of Lee that says 'President. Because my dad sucks.' :D
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: cheerfulcheerful
 
 
 
latteaddict: Whisper K/Llatteaddict on May 29th, 2008 12:37 pm (UTC)
I knew you would latch on to this eppy with much squee :)

It was generally a good ep overall but I didn't love every part of it. And as I read your insightful and well thought out review I was smiling at how we liked and disliked the opposite things.

For me, Bill and Saul fighting was horrid to watch. I hated every moment of it. And I must admit that I found Romo's reaction of waving a gun at Lee and having a breakdown about his cat to be kind of ridiculous. I've never been a pet owner so maybe that's why I'm puzzled at his reaction. Oh, and I absolutely loved Adama going off to wait for Laura. My romantic little heart ate that shit up with a spoon. And I do understand the concept of doing things for the greater good at your own personal expense. But I think the limited numbers of humanity in the Fleet make every sacrifice more perilous. If the rules had been followed every time then Lee would've died in the mini, Kara in mid season 1, Karl and the Resistance would never have been saved; or jump ahead to the Occupation and whoever was manning the Pegasus would've been alone with only a few thousand humans left and Galactica and the Colonists would surely be dead. So yeah, I'm a total sucker for those heroic/romantic gestures, it's stuff like that which makes life worth living. I can't wait to see Adama's face when Laura returns :) (though, Adama is still in my doghouse for how he's treated Kara. Both Bill and Laura throttled and tried to shoot her and yet she serenely forgives both of them and acts as loyal as ever. Kara's too forgiving, but I suppose that's one of her nicer qualities).

I was really moved by Natalie's death. I think it was the way it was filmed and acted, because I certainly had no love for Natalie prior to this.

Lee being President is AWESOME! I love it. I hope he gets to keep the position after Lara returns. But you never mentioned Leland. Leland Joseph Adama! *snort* My very next fic is definitely going to include Kara/Lee making out and Kara having giggle fits over Leland *ha*

I'm feeling the woe too about no dialogue between Lee/Kara too. It's now obvious that they've certainly come across each other prior to this but I guess whatever's been happening between them is of no interest to the audience - or so the writers think. But they did look like poster children for perfection. There wasn't a blemish on their skin, or a hair out of place. They saluted in tandem and looked like perfect representations of the two halves of the Fleet. Civilian and Military. I did love the fact they finally made eye contact. I guess that's at least something.

I'm unspoilt about next week too. Only two left before mid-season break. I'm starting to feel extra nervous *bites nails*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee not a herobop_radar on May 29th, 2008 12:58 pm (UTC)
I didn't love every part of it.
Me neither. But I did my bestest to put a positive spin on things. *nods*

I've never been a pet owner so maybe that's why I'm puzzled at his reaction.
Yeah I figured it wouldn't work for lots of people and I'm dreading to find out what supacat will say about it (she hates animals).

absolutely loved Adama going off to wait for Laura. My romantic little heart ate that shit up with a spoon
I knew you would! I was watching thinking 'oh, Latte's going to LOVE this! and she'll be thinking: this is what Lee should have done'. :) I hated it. What can I say? I just find it completely hypocritical of this show to claim to be all gritty and realistic and about how life is futile and people frak up, and to whip out absolutely horrible knife-twisting deaths/drama at times, but to at the same time validate some romantic/heroic gestures. Only the ones performed by certain nominated heroes though: Kara, Adama, Sam. If Lee tried this, he'd wind up dead. *bitter* Mere mortals aren't allowed to be heroes or romantics. But don't worry: you'll be fine backing Adama--he'll get Roslin back. There's zero suspense. *yawns*

I was really moved by Natalie's death. I think it was the way it was filmed and acted, because I certainly had no love for Natalie prior to this.
Same! At least we agree on that. ;) I had no love for Nathalie either but the death was lovely.

I hope he gets to keep the position after Laura returns.
Oh, if only! She's going to be LIVID! Perhaps he can play the 'you're too sick' card though and encourage her to go be read to by his dad all day instead. Hee. It's not like Bill will have anything else to do if he's retired. :p Then Kara just needs to oust Tigh and they can RULE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. :D

I guess whatever's been happening between them is of no interest to the audience - or so the writers think
Yuh. The writers don't care and think we don't care. Or are fucking with us.

they did look like poster children for perfection. There wasn't a blemish on their skin, or a hair out of place. They saluted in tandem and looked like perfect representations of the two halves of the Fleet. Civilian and Military.
This is true. That was a beautiful shot of them. I wish I could have enjoyed it more but honestly I was just cranky that they didn't get dialogue. The eye contact was nice but I couldn't make out what the hell it was supposed to mean. I think the problem with it for me is that even though clearly it's not actually it felt like it was the first eyecontact they'd made with each other since Kara came back. So I was reading all this extra stuff about 'I'm back and you're president and I'm CAG and...' when actually it was just all about Adama. Which is totally fair enough but this is why they needed to have had a prior scene that established some other stuff. Grr.

Only two left before mid-season break. I'm starting to feel extra nervous *bites nails*
I'm a bit calmer because Lee got some screentime. Honestly, I expect the show to screw me over again before the break, but I also feel like I got something back this week. And I'm trying to talk myself into being happy even if this is all that season 4 gives me. Lee as president. That's pretty damn brilliant and I never believed I'd see it. So I'm hanging on tight to that and 'at least there was Lee as president' will now become my mantra about Season 4. :D
latteaddict: Kara/Lee 33latteaddict on May 29th, 2008 01:25 pm (UTC)
If Lee tried this, he'd wind up dead.

There's two times that I can recall when Lee rushed ahead to try and save his girl. He never succeeded but I adore that he at least tried. YCGHA. I'll never forget Lee pouting on the phone as he tried to convince Laura that they hadn't exhausted all possibilities, and when he flipped out and grabbed Tigh and when papadama told Lee to go find their girl and Lee was all determined *swoon* And the most recent would be Lee desperately trying to find Kara in the Maelstrom. I still get shivers when after Lee finally spots her Viper he tells her he's coming to get her *wibbles* YOU GO GET HER LEE!!!!!

But I get what you mean, stuff never works out for Lee. He always gets the short end of the stick (emotionally). It often sucks to be Lee.

But don't worry: you'll be fine backing Adama--he'll get Roslin back. There's zero suspense. *yawns*

*laughs* okay, that's fair. You're right, there is zero suspense. But the most important thing is the gesture that was made. It will be really hard for Laura to ignore just how much she means to Bill after this. And I guess that's what I'm most pleased about. To have someone love you that much must be pretty special (even if she yells at him for being a romantic idiot), and if Laura really does die from the cancer at least won't die alone and feeling unloved.

Or are fucking with us.

see? there's that dim kernel of hope again :) I'll take this option please - the writers are just fucking with us.

when actually it was just all about Adama. Which is totally fair enough but this is why they needed to have had a prior scene that established some other stuff. Grr.

You got it exactly. Their look was all about Adama and their worry for him. I guess we'll just have to imagine that while they were waiting for Adama to arrive on deck Lee was teasing her about her ponytail and she was calling him president Leland.

'at least there was Lee as president' will now become my mantra about Season 4. :D

that's a pretty good mantra.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on May 29th, 2008 11:08 pm (UTC)
There's two times that I can recall when Lee rushed ahead to try and save his girl. He never succeeded but I adore that he at least tried.
Yeah, I like that he has the instinct and desire to do it. I totally understand the emotional impulse, I just don't like the way that it gets validated in Adama (and a few others) but not in Lee. But hey, not wallowing in self-pity. *moves on*

It will be really hard for Laura to ignore just how much she means to Bill after this. And I guess that's what I'm most pleased about.
That's true. If Laura is happy I'm sure I will be too. I'm way more invested in her happiness than Bill's and I'm not really an Adama/Roslin shipper but I do love Laura and if it gives her some comfort then yay.

see? there's that dim kernel of hope again :) I'll take this option please - the writers are just fucking with us.
*clings to it*

guess we'll just have to imagine that while they were waiting for Adama to arrive on deck Lee was teasing her about her ponytail and she was calling him president Leland.
Heee! That is what I will imagine, yes. DAMN the show for pushing all this into fanon. *pouts* Even in Razor they had the teasy stuff at the beginning. Why not? I mean 'Leland' was such great fodder!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on May 29th, 2008 09:31 pm (UTC)
you never mentioned Leland. Leland Joseph Adama! *snort*
I totally forgot to reply about this! Maybe it's some kind of self-defense selective reading thing. HA! But um, I found it kind of adorable. Hilarious but adorable.
latteaddict: Giggles - animated K/Llatteaddict on May 30th, 2008 03:13 am (UTC)
I found it kind of adorable. Hilarious but adorable.

Same here. I wonder if Kara could be short for anything, or if she has an embarrassing middle name. I feel the teasing should be mutual *g*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee lolbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 04:55 am (UTC)
That would be fun. Kara's needs to be really really girly.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
*giggles* She could have the name I was nearly burdened with: Clarinda.
latteaddict: Up to no goodlatteaddict on May 31st, 2008 02:27 am (UTC)
Kara 'apple blossom' Thrace *snort*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on June 1st, 2008 12:19 am (UTC)
I'm guessing the 'apple blossum' would have had to come from her dad, as I can't imagine Socrata naming her that!
latteaddict: Kiss - UBEX K/Llatteaddict on June 1st, 2008 04:48 am (UTC)
I can't imagine Socrata naming her that!

drunk Socrata might *hee*

if we're going for names from her dad then maybe 'Melody' :0)
blowjobs for jesus: bsg leekristiinthedark on May 29th, 2008 01:48 pm (UTC)
I started to read, but then I had to cover my eyes! I didn't think I had missed any episodes, but now I am sure that I have. Oh noes!

Well, actually, I am okay with this, because it gives me something to look forward to! YAY!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on May 29th, 2008 09:35 pm (UTC)
It hasn't aired yet in the states, little k! I think it airs this week. The UK are a little ahead of you guys. Sorry for the inadvertent spoilers!
blowjobs for jesus: nonfandom it's like the futurekristiinthedark on May 29th, 2008 09:37 pm (UTC)
Aw, no, I didn't read too much of it. No worries. I am very pleased, though, that it passed your standards! That is very happy making!
suffolkgirlsuffolkgirl on May 29th, 2008 09:48 pm (UTC)
This episode wasn't faultless, but I'm so full of squee at BSG finally focusing on a plot I'm invested in this season that I don't really care.

That exactly sums up how I feel about this episode.

Bill's behaviour regarding Zarek was rustrating but in character, I thought.

he's a military commander and shouldn't let his personal relationships get in the way of logical decision making.

But Bill always seems to me to be ruled by his personal relationships - he lets off his favourites lightly, makes everything into a personal betrayal.

I loved Romo's observation that Laura is a study in repressed ambition, just like Lee. Yup, they're two of a kind and that's why he's her perfect successor.

Yes, i enjoyed the comparison between them, especially as this parallel between them was drawn so strongly back in the miniseries and S1.

Of course Adama followed up his pragmatic relinquishing of power with a melodramtic gesture of pointless heroics (except that no doubt they will be legitised by the show!). He insisted on pursuing his own personal hero/suicide quest. Sigh.

And that perfectly illustrates why I prefer Lee to Bill, because Lee doesn't indulge in those kind of pointless heroics, he thinks about the larger picture above personal concerns, and I personally find that more admirable.

Lee's chosen to believe in the potential of humanity for goodness--and in the potential in himself for creating a difference.

I loved that. My favourite part of the episode, that this is the result of his extended crisis of faith after Resurrection Ship.

BTW, I feel 'Leland' explains a lot of those daddy issues, LOL.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on May 29th, 2008 11:01 pm (UTC)
Bill's behaviour regarding Zarek was rustrating but in character, I thought.
Totally in character, but I'll never stop being annoyed by it, I think. Lee's face when Adama hung up on him!

But Bill always seems to me to be ruled by his personal relationships - he lets off his favourites lightly, makes everything into a personal betrayal.
I know. It's so annoying!!!

And that perfectly illustrates why I prefer Lee to Bill, because Lee doesn't indulge in those kind of pointless heroics, he thinks about the larger picture above personal concerns, and I personally find that more admirable.
Yes, absolutely. It's one of those value-based things that totally depends on your own personal ethos, but I find Bill's actions selfish and not all that heroic. Holding the Fleet together would be a far greater tribute to Laura, I believe. If she is alive, I trust Helo and the other pilots to get her back (since I doubt Laura would be the sole survivor). And meanwhile the Fleet needs to remain on course. I guess I find Lee's actions the more heroic in this episode, but as usual he'll get no thanks for it. Laura will just be pissy he took her office. ;)

I loved that. My favourite part of the episode, that this is the result of his extended crisis of faith after Resurrection Ship.
*nods* That was wonderful, wasn't it? I am much in admiration and glee for them linking up Lee's journey into a coherent whole. Still cranky that they had to ignore him utterly for a few eps and I get the feeling they crammed all the meat of Lee's S4 journey into one eppy, but hey, I'm desperate and I'll take Lee as president any way I can. :D

BTW, I feel 'Leland' explains a lot of those daddy issues, LOL
Oh totally! I can just imagine little!Lee stamping his foot and demanding to be called Lee not Leland. And Papadama reprimanding him with 'Leland! Go to the brig your room!'

PS. I totally want an icon of Lee that says 'President. Because my dad sucks.'
suffolkgirlsuffolkgirl on May 30th, 2008 08:48 am (UTC)
Lee's face when Adama hung up on him!

I know! I could just hear Lee thinking 'not Dad being pig-headed and refusing to talk again!'. Something about that look just conveyed years of frustration to me.

Holding the Fleet together would be a far greater tribute to Laura, I believe.

I agree (and I think Laura would too, because her personal ethos has always been about the greater good). Especially as they have portrayed Bill and Laura as the 'parents' of the fleet, so I would think having lost one the fleet needs the other more. Now they have Tigh as admiral, and I don't think I need to go into why that has the potential for utter disaster. :)

That was wonderful, wasn't it? I am much in admiration and glee for them linking up Lee's journey into a coherent whole.

It was wonderful. I feel they dropped the ball at the end of S2 with Lee's depression (making it all about his romantic life when they had this perfectly good idealistic crisis) but the writers have now really pulled it back together into coherence, and i am impressed by it.

I'm laughing at just the thought of that icon.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee no creditbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 10:41 am (UTC)
Something about that look just conveyed years of frustration to me.
It was the grimace of inevitable disappointment. ;)

I would think having lost one the fleet needs the other more. Now they have Tigh as admiral, and I don't think I need to go into why that has the potential for utter disaster. :)
I agree on both points. I found it so melodramatic of Adama that when he realised he was being unprofessional his solution was not to pull himself together, but rather to hare off on his own and leave everyone else to sort things out on their own. He's a far cry from Laura who talked about having the weight of so many lives in her hands.

I feel they dropped the ball at the end of S2 with Lee's depression (making it all about his romantic life when they had this perfectly good idealistic crisis)
I think that was poor planning on their part. *nods* I always saw the potential and liked the idealistic side of it and frankly just kind of dismissed the romantic side (though I do think Lee is someone who fixates on his romantic failings as a form of self-flagellation when other things are bad, so that much made sense to me). But yeah, it's paid off long term. :)
dianora: bsg lee prettydianora2 on May 30th, 2008 04:05 am (UTC)
The stupidest thing about Tigh taking over command? All that energy expended on finding a president Adama would talk to, only to wind up with it being Tigh intsead. And Tigh and Lee aren't exactly buddies.

I'm dying for a scene where they have to deal with each other in that capacity. Which means of course that we won't get one. :P

I am on strike against the name Leland. ON STRIKE I TELL YOU. *g*

From my own ship perspective I thought it was a sad sign of the writers having lost interest in the Kara/Lee ship that they didn't bother to use those two as an example of the overall episode theme. They could have done so so easily--two lines would have been enough

Ugh, don't get me STARTED. Obviously, I couldn't possibly agree more.

And I had the same thought about wanting Jake to be Lee's, because that would have been unbelievably cute. Oh well.

PRESIDENT LEE ADAMA, WOOT! Yep, I'm clinging to the good stuff too. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee armsbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 04:11 am (UTC)
Cling, dianora2, cling! *clings with you*

I'm just glad they didn't give him the name Leland at the same time as the fat suit because that would have just been TOO MUCH INDIGNITY TO BEAR, yo! It could have put a completely different spin on his existential depression too... :p

I want my ship back!

I'm dying for a scene where they have to deal with each other in that capacity. Which means of course that we won't get one. :P
Yeah... this is a tragedy. :(
dianora: bsg lee has the best expressionsdianora2 on June 1st, 2008 07:47 pm (UTC)
I'm just glad they didn't give him the name Leland at the same time as the fat suit because that would have just been TOO MUCH INDIGNITY TO BEAR, yo!

That seriously would have sent me into a spiral from which I would never have recovered. We must be grateful for the little things.
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - romoantismiles on May 30th, 2008 04:49 am (UTC)
You know, my mind's thought process is still really just going something like this: Romo! OMG! Lee/Leland! In the same room! Talking to each other! Romo! Jake and Lance! The Red Shirt! President Adama! Yay! OMG *squee!*

So... I guess I'll just have to wait a few days before I can look at the episode critically. :) But even if there are still major problems, this ep is so close to what I've been craving from the show and I'm willing to overlook certain things. So yay!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on May 30th, 2008 04:52 am (UTC)
Yeah, why can't it be like this all the time, right? ;) I had to work SO HARD to edit the exclamation marks out of this review. :D

PRESIDENT LELAND! \o/ JAKE! ROMO! LELAND! WHEE! *collapses in giggles*
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - romoantismiles on May 30th, 2008 04:58 am (UTC)
I had to work SO HARD to edit the exclamation marks out of this review.
Ahem. Clearly, I, uh, didn't even bother. What can I say? I am consumed by the *squee!* And yes, it must be like this all the time from now on! I will have hope!.... I'm just setting myself up for a fall, aren't I? ;P

PRESIDENT LELAND! \o/ JAKE! ROMO! LELAND! WHEE! *collapses in giggles*
OMG I KNOW! YAY! *collapses with you*

And is it wrong that I'm kind of hoping Roslin doesn't return for a long, long time so that I can have my President Leland fix? :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 05:11 am (UTC)
I'm just setting myself up for a fall, aren't I? ;P
Yeah, totally dude. You need to talk yourself down from that hope immediately! Lee fans don't let other Lee fans walk into disappointment unwarned. ;) He's probably not even going to be in next week's ep.

And is it wrong that I'm kind of hoping Roslin doesn't return for a long, long time so that I can have my President Leland fix? :D
Heheheh, yeah if she appears magically beside Adama in the intro of the next ep I'm going to scream in annoyance! ;) I want President Leland for at least two eps! I want Tigh/Leland interaction. I want to see Lee getting used to what it feels like to be President. I start getting heart palpitations when I even imagine it. At least the fic potential is enormous!
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - mr. bigglesworthantismiles on May 30th, 2008 05:37 am (UTC)
He's probably not even going to be in next week's ep.
Dammit, why do you have to tell me the truth?! *cries* He will be in the next ep! I WILL BELIEVE!

*breathes*

Alright, I'm out of the fantasy and back in reality. Thank you for warning me. You'd think that after all this time I'd know better than to get excited over anything. Sometimes this random optimism crops up. I really need to work on crushing it. :)

I'm going to scream in annoyance! ;)
I'll be screeching and throwing a tantrum like a frakkin' toddler. You'll probably hear me. ;P

I want Tigh/Leland interaction.
*blinks* Oh Gods, just thinking of that makes me cackle. Please, please, please let there be some interaction between them!

BTW, OMG I love your icon! And I would also LOVE to see the 'President. Because my dad sucks.' icon.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 05:45 am (UTC)
He will be in the next ep! I WILL BELIEVE!
Hee hee hee. I will try.

. You'd think that after all this time I'd know better than to get excited over anything. Sometimes this random optimism crops up. I really need to work on crushing it. :)
SAME! It is PESKY. *frowns at it* It has got me into trouble before now. (Do you think Lee feels like this sometimes? *g* Damn that occasional random optimism! It leads to things like presidencies! :p)

Oh Gods, just thinking of that makes me cackle. Please, please, please let there be some interaction between them!
I know: oh, the potential! *dreams* Also Lee should totally appoint Romo as his aide. Tory's clearly got to go.

This icon is definitely my new favourite. :D dianora2 made it and it is a thing of great beauty to me. It explains EVERYTHING EVER. *nods*
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - lee smileantismiles on May 30th, 2008 05:59 am (UTC)
Damn that occasional random optimism!
It is SO how Leland feels sometimes! :P (And I just can't seem to call him Lee anymore. His actual name is so horrifically awesome that I can't not use it. And giggle hysterically every time. Yes, I have the emotional maturity of a twelve year-old. So?)

Lee should totally appoint Romo as his aide
Dude, any excuse to have Romo on the show. I don't care what he does as long as I see him doing it. And Tory so needs to go. But you know that Roslin would probably reappoint her even though SHE IS EVIL! Except maybe not after the whole Baltar thing. *hopes*

It explains EVERYTHING EVER. *nods*
YES IT DOES! *nods along* And dianora2 always seems to come up with awesome icons.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee's farewellbop_radar on May 30th, 2008 09:26 am (UTC)
I just can't seem to call him Lee anymore. His actual name is so horrifically awesome that I can't not use it.
I feel the same way! Now that I've started using it, I just can't stop! *helpless*

And giggle hysterically every time. Yes, I have the emotional maturity of a twelve year-old. So?)
The thing that most makes me giggle like a twelve-year-old is imagining Kara calling out his ACTUAL name accidentally during Baltar!sex. *is infinitely more immature*

You know that Roslin would probably reappoint her even though SHE IS EVIL!
I fear this, yes. Tory will be desperate to worm her way back into Roslin's good graces. I can't imagine how she'd deal with LELAND though. I think she's faintly disdainful of him.

And [info]dianora2 always seems to come up with awesome icons.
She does! She is on our wavelength. *nods*
Talithatalitha78 on May 30th, 2008 01:50 pm (UTC)
Sorry, off-topic. Are you around for beta this weekend? I hope to have a draft ready by tonight. If not, no worries.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Yay!bop_radar on May 30th, 2008 11:11 pm (UTC)
I am around! YAY!
The First Evil: Lee - Smirk - Dianora2asta77 on May 31st, 2008 01:35 am (UTC)
Bill basically held the Quorum, the whole fleet, ransom in this episode. By refusing to acknowledge Zarek, he made Zarek more powerful, fed him fuel for his argument that the government they'd had wasn't a true government but 'a tacit agreement between a military strongman and a political strongwoman to rule together by fiat'.

For a moment there I was wondering if we were on the verge of another split in the fleet. It's ironic that Adama was acting the way he was because of Laura because she would have been furious at him if she saw his behavior first hand. And she's as much a fan of Zarek as Adama is, but she'd dying and she knows that Zarek is her successor.

He says he got Lee appointed 'to do some good', but he's not as selfless as he makes out--he is angry at Lee because he thought he had him on side. And he's only going to me more angry now that it's Lee who replaced him.

As soon as we found out that it was Zarek that got Lee appointed toe the Quorum I stated that Zarek was under the (mistaken) impression that he would be able to manipulate Lee for personal gain. Zarek thinks he knows Lee so much better than he actually does. Maybe he should have been present when Lee told Adama and Laura in 'Bastille Day' that if they failed to adhere to the articles then he owed them nothing.

Romo reflects on the pilots looking like they've given up hope. That felt like an echo of Lee talking about the Quorum having given up hope. Has the whole fleet given up?

Ohhhh, I hadn't made that connection. It is starting to feel that way, isn't it? Everyone is giving up hope. I think that is, in part, why Athena killed Natalie. She had hope that she could have a life in the fleet, amongst the humans, and love her husband and raise her daughter and suddenly there was the possibility of an alliance and her losing everything she's fought so hard for.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee no creditbop_radar on June 1st, 2008 12:29 am (UTC)
she would have been furious at him if she saw his behavior first hand. And she's as much a fan of Zarek as Adama is, but she'd dying and she knows that Zarek is her successor.
I know! Laura > Adama. That added to my frustration with Adama, for sure.

Zarek was under the (mistaken) impression that he would be able to manipulate Lee for personal gain. Zarek thinks he knows Lee so much better than he actually does.
*nods* Absolutely! Foolish, foolish Zarek. I never thought he'd be able to play Lee succesfully.

Maybe he should have been present when Lee told Adama and Laura in 'Bastille Day' that if they failed to adhere to the articles then he owed them nothing.
Heh, yeah! Though it amazes me that both Laura and Adama have continued to underestimate Lee since then (imho).

She had hope that she could have a life in the fleet, amongst the humans, and love her husband and raise her daughter and suddenly there was the possibility of an alliance and her losing everything she's fought so hard for.
Mmmm. I like that. It makes sense, yes. That must feel so true to her emotionally even if it isn't logical. She's always seemed ruled by her emotions so it was good characterisation, I thought.

And yeah, I do feel like all the humans have given up. Maybe that's one reason I'm finding this season so tough going. Lee is the only one who hasn't and there's not nearly enough of him! I suppose we're supposed to feel hope about Kara's destiny plot with the rebel Cylons but that reeks of twisted desperation to me, and of futility--even more now that Nathalie has been shot. But I guess with Bill acting the Big Hero all will be fixed soon. *eyeroll*
legalease: bsgLee402CAGbye_alexandrallegalease on May 31st, 2008 02:30 pm (UTC)
I really loved reading your thoughts on this episode. I recorded it last night to rewatch and am looking forward to seeing it again after all of your great insights. This one definitely invites a rewatch -- especially all of the Romo parts.

I must admit that I am getting a kick out of having Lee see what it's like to be on the other side of the fence. That shot of Galactica jumping away when they didn't know why was fabulous at demonstrating the vulnerability of the Fleet and the way that without a working alliance between the military command and the presidency (aka someone to keep Adama in check) things would just fall apart.
I am loving it as well! I think his experiences as a military leader and now his experiences on the civilian side really do uniquely qualify him to be the best candidate for president. My Lee bias is showing, but I really do think he'll be a great leader. And Romo totally pegged him that he wanted it all along but never would have admitted it, even to himself.

From my own ship perspective I thought it was a sad sign of the writers having lost interest in the Kara/Lee ship that they didn't bother to use those two as an example of the overall episode theme. They could have done so so easily--two lines would have been enough (Kara congratulating Lee on becoming President?), a little 'touching base' with how those two separate destinies were going. Sigh. I'm reduced to putting my shipper thoughts in 'small' because they're so irrelevant to the show.
Sigh! Sadly, I agree. I had such high hopes after Six of One and that lovely brig scene. For some inexplicable reason, I'm afraid the writers have just given up on the ship. Even if we're wrong and the writers do have something planned down the road, so many opportunities are being missed right now. It's just so frustrating! The show is moving so fast and skipping over so much that we don't know most of the time what's motivating the characters. How sad is it that most of us shippers are stuck with parsing and squeeing over one look between them. Our expectations have SO been lowered!


K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on June 1st, 2008 12:35 am (UTC)
I think his experiences as a military leader and now his experiences on the civilian side really do uniquely qualify him to be the best candidate for president.
Same! :D There is noone else. And ok, there's kind of noone else partly because they're all just a jaded, flaily mess at the moment. But Lee's been through that and come out the other side. He's perfect!

Romo totally pegged him that he wanted it all along but never would have admitted it, even to himself.
I know. Clever Romo! Silly, sweet, in denial Lee.

I had such high hopes after Six of One and that lovely brig scene. For some inexplicable reason, I'm afraid the writers have just given up on the ship.
Same and same. It's clear that they have OR are deliberately fucking with us.

Even if we're wrong and the writers do have something planned down the road, so many opportunities are being missed right now.
Quite frankly, I don't think I'll be able to forgive them if they do do something down the road. It makes no character sense to me that there's nothing going on between those two right now after that brig scene. I actually think they'll just forget about Kara/Lee until the last 15 mins of the last episode and then they'll tug our heartstrings terribly in some dying admission of love or something. And I'm at the point where I will actually find that MORE annoying than if they'd just ended the ship formally. Because it won't make any sense to me that there was nothing in between.

How sad is it that most of us shippers are stuck with parsing and squeeing over one look between them. Our expectations have SO been lowered!
Yeah. I'm really bitter and cynical so don't listen to me! But I think it's deliberate so that we'll be grateful for whatever they throw at us about them in the finale. I do think they will throw out something, because they are smart enough to know a large part of their audience were invested in that ship.
Alexandra Leaving: BSG - Lee - shining beaconalexandral on June 5th, 2008 08:58 am (UTC)
I also quite liked this episode. :D

I loved the Athena parts of this episode: she continues to be my favourite Cylon. :) Adama confronting her about what she had done was one of the most powerful scenes in the episode for me. I loved the way he turned from her in annoyance when she said she's had a vision. He must be getting so sick of all these women and their visions! ;) There's no way for Athena to explain logically what she's done, she acted out of fear but also out of conviction. However wrong she was, she believed with every fibre of her being that her child was in danger and she acted to protect her. I do think Athena's xenophobia against her own kind played into that fear and allowed it to run rampant though.

I really relate so much to Athena's story. Sadly, I have a bad feeling that shooting Nathalie will endanger Hera somehow. I am glad that Adama let her be back with the mother (the moment when he took Hera away highlighted his problems as a parents again!) but I am afraid it is not the end of it. Athena's vision will become some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy and the event of Nathalie's shooting will span many many consequences, may be involving Hera.

And EEEEEEE! LELAND!!!

I want an icon of Lee that says 'President. Because my dad sucks.' :D

I can make the cion if you still want it!

Edited at 2008-06-05 09:00 am (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 06:36 am (UTC)
Sadly, I have a bad feeling that shooting Nathalie will endanger Hera somehow.
Ohh, I hope not! :( You could well be right though--I definitely agree that it wasn't an end, and I think the prophecy will come to pass anyway. That it comes to pass in part because of the shooting would be very BSG.

I can make the cion if you still want it!
YES PLEASE! *g* Thank you so much!
Alexandra Leavingalexandral on June 10th, 2008 12:53 am (UTC)
The icon below, please use if you like and discard if you don't!!

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on June 10th, 2008 01:00 am (UTC)
Ohhh, it's marvelous! *hugs it* I am uploading it straight away...