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09 June 2008 @ 12:52 pm
Battlestar Galactica 4.09 The Hub  
I've got the can't-be-bothereds about posting on BSG this week, in a major way. I watched the episode a day or so ago and have been procrastinating about posting. But the completionist in me is compelling me to post something. So here goes:

I'm finding BSG is more and more crazycakes every week at the moment. This episode was pretty much what I expected it to be--a focus on Laura and Gaius on the basestar that jumped away. I expected it to contain lots of religious nonsense and it did. I expected it to end with Adama and Laura reunited, and it did. I was pleasantly suprised by the Helo and Eights plot--Helo was a grounding force for me in the episode and I was immensely grateful for the space battles. Oh how I have missed them! So I didn't hate it, but I did find it had large dollops of WTF, which seems par for the course in season 4.

Mary McDonnell can sell me on a awful lot and without her I'd have found this episode a lot harder to swallow. As it was, I tried to go with her spiritual journey but it still didn't completely work for me. At first I found the message interesting: the idea that Laura doesn't love people. I particularly liked the creepiness of the line 'don't you just hate these people?' because sometimes I think she does. Laura insulates herself from those she 'rules' as President. This was evident in her exchange earlier this season with Lee about the Quorum and their frustrations. While Roslin carries the weight of their lives in her hands, while she feels the responsibility, she doesn't connect with them emotionally or compassionately. I thought that was particularly interesting following on from Sine Qua Non, in which Lee demonstrated his capacity for empathy with those who have lost all faith and meaning in their lives.

I also liked the fact that Laura spotted how 'full of myself' her conscience was. I could really have lived without seeing Adama read from that craptastic book again, and I thought it was hilarious how out of character Kara was in Laura's vision. I'm going to write that off as Laura being full of herself again, because Kara rarely wants comforted by anybody when someone dies, and I really don't think Laura dying would be that big a deal to her. I could maybe, maybe buy her wanting a hug from Lee if Adama died. Maybe. Though I'd still find it more in character for her to just drink herself senseless. In any case, I got a giggle out of how emo Laura's Head!Kara was.

Gaius also made for many giggles--he was in high comedic form. Watching him interact with the Hybrid and try to convert the Centurion to his religion was hilarious. I especially enjoyed watching him and Laura piss each other off--since they have both annoyed me in different ways this season, I took some sadistic delight in their mutual frustration with each other. *g*

Having D'Anna back was surprisingly refreshing. I'd forgotten what good value she could be. She became very boring to me when she was sleeping with Gaius, and that kind of eclipsed the memory of her better aspects. It was fabulous to see her return, kill the annoying lead Cavill (who doubly deserved to die after calling Boomer is 'pet Eight': bleugh!), and then refuse to cooperate with Laura. I think she gained Laura's grudging respect that way, and it was certainly smart politics.

Helo was solidly in character and well used in the episode, I thought. (Did the network prompt Ron again? *snerk*) It was creepy to discover that the lead Eight has Athena's memories, and at first I was surprised by how understated Helo's reaction was, but on reflection I do think that was in character. For starters he was on a mission and it was imperative that he work cooperatively with her. Then I think she earned his respect by showing her professionalism as a leader. And she also, of course, demonstrated very Athena-like aspects and personality, which no matter how much he reminded himself of their differences, would have to play on him. I loved Laura calling him on 'you're not married to the whole production line' but you could see him thinking 'yeah... but I kind of am'. Sigh. Oh, Helo! I wasn't surprised to see him feeling weird about all the dying Eights, either

Probably my favourite dramatic point in the whole episode was Helo's 'betrayal' of the Eight. We'd heard her embrace mortality as a 'good thing' because it levelled things between them and the humans. She also suggested that it opened the way towards trust--and I agree. That was a big moment for me, and an important turning point in the relationship between Cylons and humans. To then have Helo betray their trust immediately was really damning. And I kind of hated Laura for that, even though I know why she did it. I definitely felt for Helo, because the Eight took the betrayal so very personally. I liked that it didn't get Laura anywhere in the end.

As for Gaius and Laura... well that's where the episode kind of ran away from me. It was a huge thing to have Gaius reveal that he'd given the secrets to the Cylons, and after he did so I could understand Laura toying with the idea of letting him bleed to death. Where it fell down for me was in the spiritual visions she was having. I found them, by this stage of the episode, laboured and heavy-handed. I don't buy that Laura would need a vision to tell her that a 'bad man feels his death just as keenly as a good man' and the message about Gaius felt like a clunky rerun of Lee's speech from Crossroads. I would have found it easier to understand if Laura had just found killing Gaius in this grotesque way too difficult to face. That could have led her to connect with the part of herself that was human and compassionate--in a far less clunky way than having her spirit guide tell her to 'just love someone'.

One of the problems with that message, for me, was the way that it paralleled Gaius's own deathbed ramblings about all his guilt 'flying away' because he is loved by God. That seriously irritated me enough that I wanted him to die for a while there. It felt very anti-climactic when neither Gaius or Laura died. And Laura dying is starting to have a 'boy that cried wolf aspect to it. It's been soooo drawn out! And after seeing her deathbed scenes in vision form, I'm really hoping we don't have to live through them again in real time.

The other annoying aspect of the 'just love someone' message was that it meant Adama. Blah. The ep had lost me completely by that point. I had originally found the insight about Laura's lack of love interesting when I thought about how it pertained to the way she governed and related to others. I do think that her illness has driven her to have a lot less patience and compassion for others, so I liked the idea that she might find that aspect of herself again. But I don't buy that this connects in any way with her being 'IN love' with Adama. Those are two very different forms of love, and I hate them being conflated. Laura telling Adama she loves him doesn't change a damn thing, and I hate that the show played it like somehow that was a great moment of growth for Laura. Not killing Gaius was growth of a sort that might have significant consequences. Telling Adama she's in love with him is just a private thing that seemed to bring her some release. And oh my, could he be any less gracious or more conceited?! 'ABOUT TIME?!?!?!' *deathglare* Rude much.

All this redemption through love stuff is starting to irritate the hell out of me. Especially when so much of it seems shallow or crazy love. Gaius whores around with Tory and his harem and considers himself 'loved' and saved; Tigh is 'saved' by crazy vision sex with Caprica; Adama proves his love for Laura by hanging around in space hopelessly (suicidally, as Lee calls it); Laura loves Adama, despite what a crazy action this is. I'd be a lot more convinced by it if the characters didn't all seem to be displaying severe mental illness.

PS. As predicted, no Lee-as-President scenes. What's the bets the next ep leaps forward to Laura being back as Pres again? It's such a tragic waste.
 
 
 
Dionusia: lee has to do thisdionusia on June 9th, 2008 04:23 am (UTC)
I'll take that bet. I felt it was only natural that this ep was all about the people on the Basestar, because the last one was all about the fleet after it had jumped away. I'm sure the finale will involve all of them.

I'll bet Lee is a big part of it too.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on June 9th, 2008 05:07 am (UTC)
I'm sure the finale will involve all of them.
I'm sure it will, but you've seen the preview and I haven't so there's no way I'm taking bets with you. My question was rhetorical.
Dionusia: l/k trustdionusia on June 9th, 2008 06:26 am (UTC)
Yeah, but I made the same bet weeks and weeks ago. :)

Anyway I seem to have watched something shorter that was different from what other people saw as the promo...hmm.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on June 10th, 2008 01:04 am (UTC)
At this point in time, I am trying to put my optimist's hat on and hope that season 4.5 will redeem the show in my eyes (I realise it doesn't need redeeming in yours). 4.0 is a write-off, for me, but I guess if it all turns out to be preparation for a really awesome 4.5 season, that will mean it's served a purpose in retrospect. On the other hand, I'm not sure I can face getting my hopes up all over again: falling out of love with the show has been incredibly painful and has left a deep aching hole inside me.
Dionusia: ah! frak betide!dionusia on June 10th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear that it's causing you such pain. If it's that stressful, it sounds like you should stop watching.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee frak betide!bop_radar on June 10th, 2008 01:47 am (UTC)
Thanks, D! I know: I'm ridiculously emo. ;) I still retain the ability to laugh at myself, honest! And I'm genuinely torn about whether to continue. I'm too much of a completionist and too much in love with Lee ever to NOT watch a BSG episode, but I do think I should maybe stop posting about the series. I've never fallen out of love with a show before--I've always been one of those people who found something to love in every episode, even the dodgy ones. The show just existing made me happy. And I kind of hate who I've become in this fandom now: one of those annoying people who whinges on about how the show is not what it should be! *whimpers* What happened to me? :(( I'm actually thinking of taking a hiatus from LJ because I'm so miserable about this.

I miss you, and I miss being in the fandom properly. I hope if I leave we will remain friends.

(And Lee icon made me miss our WT-ness!)
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - lee smileantismiles on June 9th, 2008 04:28 am (UTC)
Hmm. For the most part, I agree with you, especially about the Baltar-Roslin scene. Throughout, I was a little confused and also a bit 'wtf?' and I still don't quite understand what happened. So I generally agree with what you said. I did think that that scene featured some wonderful acting by Mary and James, though.

Also, I loved Baltar talking to the Centurion. I don't know why, but I was laughing during the entire scene. And I never realized how much I missed Three. Now that I think about it, she's probably my favorite Cylon of all. :)

And yes, the dream!Kara was vastly out of character, but I was just flailing and going, 'OMG! Lee and Kara are touching and comforting each other! Yay!' I kind of let my starved shipper heart take over. ;) But I have to mention, why is Kara showing more of a reaction to Roslin's death than Lee? Because um, wasn't Lee the one who interacted with her? I think the only times Kara has spoken with Roslin had to do with the Arrow and the SAR to Caprica. And of course when she pulled a gun on her. So why is she reacting more strongly (from what I remember)? Have the writers really gotten that appallingly forgetful?

On another note, while I completely understand your take on the end scene, I was actually a little happy with it. Yes, it could have been handled much better, but I liked it. Can't quite say why.

I don't think I can explain just how much I loved Helo this week. But it was because of everything you said. So... yeah. :P

Laura being back as Pres again
Blasphemous lies! You are wrong, Boppy! We will get our Lee-as-Pres fix. Like I said, I SHALL BELIEVE! Remember, they weren't back with the Fleet just yet. Have hope! ;)

And in case you didn't watch the preview, I won't be spoilery. I'll just say it looks as if Lee will be in the next episode a healthy amount. So I'm very excited. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 04:52 am (UTC)
I did think that that scene featured some wonderful acting by Mary and James, though.
Oh definitely. They're both brilliant and sell me on a lot that would otherwise be unstomach-able.

I loved Baltar talking to the Centurion
Me too! :) Mainly because he's the first person to really pay attention to the fact that they have free will now.

was just flailing and going, 'OMG! Lee and Kara are touching and comforting each other! Yay!' I kind of let my starved shipper heart take over.
Heh. I find her too out of character to think of it as real, but I did find it amusing that Laura thinks of them as a couple! Actually it just made me feel really bitter about the fact that now my ship only exists in Laura's head.

And of course when she pulled a gun on her. So why is she reacting more strongly (from what I remember)? Have the writers really gotten that appallingly forgetful?
I am trying really really hard to fanwank that as the fact that Kara helped Laura to the battlestar and she's been preoccupied with Kara quite a bit this season with the whole is-she-or-isn't-she-a-Cylon thing. So maybe the writers think having Kara in Laura's subconscious as a compassionate human is important in some way? Otherwise, yeah, they're losing a grip on Kara more than ever.

I love Helo! He was the only character I could unreservedly love in this episode and he made an otherwise frustrating episode a lot more solid.

We will get our Lee-as-Pres fix. Like I said, I SHALL BELIEVE! Remember, they weren't back with the Fleet just yet. Have hope! ;)
Heh, well, I appreciate the sentiment but I'll believe it when I see it.
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - lee smileantismiles on June 9th, 2008 05:11 am (UTC)
now my ship only exists in Laura's head
And isn't that just pathetic? To think that this is what such a fascinating relationship has been reduced to? I'm feeling very bitter about it as well.

they're losing a grip on Kara
I'm afraid that this is true. Kara's characterization has been... weird to me this season. Don't even get me started on the whole Leoben thing. Thank Gods he hasn't interacted with Kara these past episodes. I would've hurled if he had.

the only character I could unreservedly love
That's exactly how I felt. Helo racked up some major points with me this episode. My love for him is stronger than ever.

I'll believe it when I see it.
I really should approach eps this way. Whenever I indulge in that pesky optimism it only ever ends in disappointment. Still, I'm going to hold out on my hope. It helps me get through the breaks (and the ep itself).
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 05:18 am (UTC)
To think that this is what such a fascinating relationship has been reduced to? I'm feeling very bitter about it as well.
Yeah... I think I had another minor moment of epiphany in this episode about the writers genuinely feeling there is no more storytelling to be done with Lee and Kara. The focus on Adama and Roslin makes that more obvious than ever. They see them as where the UST and unresolved emotional issues are. Kara and Lee are 'closed' in the writers' minds.

Kara's characterization has been... weird to me this season. Don't even get me started on the whole Leoben thing.
Oh, I know. That's been one blessing. I'm so sad because I found Kara so strong in the first few episodes of the season. And I tried to run with the idea that it was because Kara was just desperate to find Earth, physically compelled even, that was why she tolerated Leoben and even expressed happiness at the basestar being her 'comet'. But now that she's back on Galactica and apparently no longer experiencing headaches at all even though they're no closer to Earth, it just doesn't hang together for me.

I really should approach eps this way. Whenever I indulge in that pesky optimism it only ever ends in disappointment
Heh, yeah that's what I found too. But 'Faith' beat all optimism out of me. I can't say it really helps not to have it though, because I still feel disappointed in episodes--just a different sort of disappointment--the disappointment of 'oh this is just what I expected'.
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - lee smileantismiles on June 9th, 2008 05:26 am (UTC)
no more storytelling to be done with Lee and Kara
*headdesk*

Oh, writers. Your stupidity astounds me.

it just doesn't hang together for me.
Same here.

'Faith' beat all optimism out of me.
It came very close to beating all the optimism out of me too. I somehow managed to hold onto it, but I definitely had to tone it down quite a lot. I miss the days when my optimism was rewarded. :(
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee no creditbop_radar on June 9th, 2008 05:31 am (UTC)
Same! It used to be! :((((

I felt like this episode almost got there. There were parts of it I really liked, but then they bogged it down with dodgy leaps again. Sine Qua Non was like that too, except with more Lee, which is always going to make me squee, but I'd say both eps were about on par in terms of balance of WTF to solid material, I think. I am writing off Season 4.0 and crossing fingers that Season 4.5 redeems the show. It's hard to hang on to hope though.
indigo419: Jamie Hamlet lemon - photo Howard Websteindigo419 on June 9th, 2008 05:02 am (UTC)
You too, huh? Must be a Lee-fan thing. :0)

So true about Kara's OOC-ness. And I did think Gaius and Laura competing for the Hybrid's favors was a hilarious scene.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 05:05 am (UTC)
Me too. And must be. *hugs* I miss my show.

I did think Gaius and Laura competing for the Hybrid's favors was a hilarious scene.
Yeah, that was comedy gold. :)
brokenmnemonic: Pilotsbrokenmnemonic on June 9th, 2008 07:25 am (UTC)
I've still not seen the episode yet, but I have seen the vision scene, thanks to some of the shippers on skiffy. I was more than a little surprised by it; after all, since episode 2 we've had nothing more between Lee and Kara than a couple of blink and you'll miss them looks.

Then my natural cynicism caught up with me. Why was Kara turning to and hugging Lee? Not because she's Kara... but because she's the girl in the scene, therefore she's the one who has to be the most upset and in need of comfort.

Can I have Season 1 back please? Gaius didn't get to have sex nearly as often, my pilots used to talk to each other and there were some messages given through subtext and intimation, rather than anvils and dream gurus.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee lolbop_radar on June 9th, 2008 07:30 am (UTC)
Well I think the vision scene was the same as the Adama farewell scene: it didn't actually have anything to do with Kara/Lee. The Adama farewell was, understandably, all about Adama, so I see no point in shippers trying to read anything else into the glance between the pilots. And this scene occurred in Laura's subconscious and she clearly has a warped understanding of who these characters are!

because she's the girl in the scene, therefore she's the one who has to be the most upset and in need of comfort.
That doesn't work for me in this instance because Laura really doesn't see Kara as 'some random girl' (even if the writers do). So I have to interpret it as Laura's ego running rampant ... it sits oddly with me.

And has nothing whatsoever to do with pilots, the ship, which is why you won't see me squeeing over it from a shipper perspective. In fact, I find it all the more disheartening that apparently our ship only exists in other people's imaginations these days...

I can't wait to rewatch Seasons 1 and 2 and never watch Season 4.0 again.
The First Evil: Erm...okay - Lee - Nyusziasta77 on June 9th, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
Then my natural cynicism caught up with me. Why was Kara turning to and hugging Lee? Not because she's Kara... but because she's the girl in the scene, therefore she's the one who has to be the most upset and in need of comfort.

I'll cut you some slack since you haven't seen the episode ;), but , as I said to Bop, I thought Kara was there to support and comfort Lee and Adama. To me, it was Lee that needed a hug and Kara was offering. And I think Kara would be sorry, on some level, to See Laura die. Their relationship has been rocky, but they've had a lengthy relationship. I have some gender issues with the series, but nothing about those death bed scenes made me say 'Oh, Kara's the girl, so of course she needs a hug!'
Alexandra Leaving: BSG - democracyalexandral on June 9th, 2008 08:45 am (UTC)
I loved Laura calling him on 'you're not married to the whole production line' but you could see him thinking 'yeah... but I kind of am'. Sigh. Oh, Helo! I wasn't surprised to see him feeling weird about all the dying Eights, either

This whole scene was awesome and was probably one of the best moments that shown the nature of cylons, the fact that Eights ARE the same person, whoever weird it might feel!

As for Gaius and Laura... well that's where the episode kind of ran away from me.

The only thing I likesd about this and something that was quite a revelation to me – that Gaius actually felt GUILT. It never crossed my mind that he felt guilt and I guess I like him more now..

One of the problems with that message, for me, was the way that it paralleled Gaius's own deathbed ramblings about all his guilt 'flying away' because he is loved by God. That seriously irritated me enough that I wanted him to die for a while there.

Me too. :D I guess I hate this "God forgave me so I don't need to fulfill my duty to people and deserve my forgiveness from people now, I am just a happy chappy , no matter what I have done!" attitude. It is SO wrong! I believe in forgiveness but , man - God's forgiveness doesn't absolve anyone from their duty to people!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee frak betide!bop_radar on June 9th, 2008 11:36 am (UTC)
probably one of the best moments that shown the nature of cylons, the fact that Eights ARE the same person, whoever weird it might feel!
*nods* It's been good to see more of that--feels like a continuation of the journey Helo and Sharon began back on Caprica.

The only thing I likesd about this and something that was quite a revelation to me – that Gaius actually felt GUILT
Heh. Yeah... I sort of liked it. But part of me didn't really buy that he had. It felt like they were telling us rather than showing us. But on the other hand I've had Gaius fans tell me that he does feel guilt, that this is obvious to them, so I guess it was there if we chose to see it. It certainly makes him a more pathetic figure, one that it's easier to feel pity for rather than just repulsion.

It is SO wrong! I believe in forgiveness but , man - God's forgiveness doesn't absolve anyone from their duty to people!
Absolutely! It was too much of a whitewash for me. Yes, love is important (this episode totally made me hum 'Love is all we need' by the Beatles!) and I understand why these people would seek forgiveness and absolution. But I just hate the way it's being portrayed as a 'hey, presto!' kind of phenomenon and not something they have to strive for every day.
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dianora: bsg no more mr. nicedianora2 on June 9th, 2008 02:30 pm (UTC)
Even though I enjoyed the comedic touches of Baltar, I find Jane Espenson is not a very good BSG writer!!

Agreed.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Helobop_radar on June 9th, 2008 11:25 pm (UTC)
Take that away, and this is the last generation of Cylons and voila, genocide. Or maybe that is too sophisticated a logical train for BSG
Maybe... I don't have as big a problem with it because I think the fact that Athena can give birth is a sign that it's possible--it makes no sesne that that capacity would be limited to only one Cylon. And I do think Helo was clearly shown as being incredibly conflicted about this action. I think he went with it because the Cylons, particularly the Eight who had borrowed Athena's memories, was in support of it. But he looked conflicted when she and D'Anna talked about losing the ability to resurrect. I also think it makes sense that Helo's not in exactly the same place as he was back then. The playing field has shifted and the fact that the Cylons are fighting each other makes it a different prospect to them all being the one unified force versus the humans. I like Helo but I don't think he is as good at big-picture thinking as Lee--he's a more limited emotional thinker, torn between loyal service as a military officer and love for his Cylon wife. So it makes sense to me that he opts to follow orders wherever he can. It was only when the genocide was going to be absolute that he was pushed far enough to act outside of his orders, and I don't think that was easy for him to do, especially as Athena disagreed with him. This was a bit of a rerun for him, and I'm not surprised to see him shift in his thinking. I think he's much more comfortable with an outcome that sees some Cylons continue to live than one that sees only his wife survive.

I found this episode really repetitive and I also thought the ending was much less revelatory than it was supposed to be. Even though I enjoyed the comedic touches of Baltar, I find Jane Espenson is not a very good BSG writer!!
I agree with you. The comedy Baltar felt out of place because it was inconsistent with the rest of this season. It was season 1 Gaius, for no clear reason that I could see.
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on June 10th, 2008 05:58 am (UTC)
In any case, Cylon-Human children aren't CYLONS. They're hybrids (and it's won't be clear for a long time whether THEY can reproduce anyway
Good point. But the Cylons don't seem worried about that, and I think that's too abstract a point for Helo to worry about too. It seems obvious to you and I, but the writers have, for better or worse, consistently shown Helo to not think about these things very far. He thinks about them as they pertain directly to his life and he goes as far as having compassion for other Cylons because they're like his wife, killing them all outright is abhorrent to him, but letting them die out in a more passive way just doesn't produce the same visceral reaction in him. It's not admirable, but it's in character to me. And yeah, whethere that's really Helo or the writers is a bit foggy to me. The writing's not been solid enough this season for me to work out intent very often!

I'm just bummed out because I keep picking not-so-great episodes to watch "live" and it's starting to annoy me. I'm seriously thinking of waiting to watch next week's for a while - if it's fabulous, then I'll have something to look forward to; if it's crappy, I won't be as disappointed!
I sympathise. This season is killing me with disappointment. As I told dionusia above I am close to stopping posting about the show all together. All I do is whinge! I will still watch the eps though--for better or worse, I am compelled.
(Deleted comment)
Beckbeck_liz on June 10th, 2008 05:12 pm (UTC)
The awesome power of Lee Adama to make us keep watching.

Well, this and I think Mary McDonnell hypnotised me during the last episode. :-)

(and I think I might like season 3 more this time around as well)

The thing about S3 is that it seems to be better if you can marathon it. I didn't like much of it when I was watching it week-to-week, but when I rewatched prior to S4 because I discovered that I didn't really remember much of what had happened? :-) I discovered I liked it quite a bit better. I mean, the low points are still the low points, but somehow they're easier to swallow if you can go straight on to the next episode.

Asta and Indi keeps talking about what a great episode it was and I AM CONFUSED! I thought the acting was excellent; the episode, not so much!)

For me it's not so much that it was a great episode as that I enjoyed it while I was watching it. I think if I had to go back and rewatch it I'd start noticing the problems and holes more, but usually unless something is *really* bad, my first watch of an episode tends to be mostly enjoyable. It's on the repeat, or on thinking about it overnight sometimes, that I start going, "Wait, what was that?"
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on June 10th, 2008 09:59 pm (UTC)
I enjoyed it while I was watching it. I think if I had to go back and rewatch it I'd start noticing the problems and holes more, but usually unless something is *really* bad, my first watch of an episode tends to be mostly enjoyable.
That's how I felt about BSG during Season 3. There were problems, sure, but I enjoyed it on some level no matter what--especially on first watch. This season has shifted for me, though. I find the first watch painful! And then I try and find the strengths on rewatch, but with that hole that comes from it not having really worked for me in the first place.

Perhaps Season 4 will be better if I marathon it! :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee solacebop_radar on June 10th, 2008 09:56 pm (UTC)
The awesome power of Lee Adama to make us keep watching.
Yessssss.

it did help me to sort of disengage myself from fandom and not write about the show in "real time" this season
Your experience has really made me want to rewatch earlier seasons. I might file that away as a possible coping mechanism for the second half of season 4. ;)

Like with "Hub" when I'm looking at my f-list and everyone except you, Asta and Indi keeps talking about what a great episode it was and I AM CONFUSED!
Hee hee hee. Yes! Must be a Lee fan thing, as Indi says. Except that makes it sound like our complaint was that Lee wasn't in it, which is far from the truth! The Hub was frustrating because it could have been REALLY good if it had been written better. I kept almost hooking in and then being flung out of it again.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Presidentbop_radar on June 11th, 2008 11:21 pm (UTC)
now, you might not know this, but I really disliked Sharon and Helo the first time I watched season 2, and rewatching, I've come to really appreciate both of them!
That seems aMAzing! I do remember how much you loathed them. :) Maybe if I rewatch, I'll find some growing appreciation for... Anders or someone? Adama? That doesn't seem possible! I'd settle for Tigh. OK, I'm definitely going to rewatch as a coping mechanism. In fact I'm thinking of pulling out my DVDs to sit beside me as a security blanket while watching the mid-season cliffhanger. ;)

there were parts I DID like a lot!) it was the fact that I found the bits in between those parts exceedingly tedious!
Yeah, totally. I liked parts a lot too--it kept feeling almost like a really great episode and then coming crashing back down again with a thud.
dianora: bsg gaiusdianora2 on June 9th, 2008 02:29 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I kind of love that Laura is secretly an OOC Lee/Kara shipper. LOL. I was watching with my friend oeilade and we both mockingly did a melodramatic "Oh, Lee!!" when Kara girlishly pressed herself to his manly chest. Hilarious. (And yet, as I said -- I'LL STILL MAKE ICONS DAMMIT.)

I would have found it easier to understand if Laura had just found killing Gaius in this grotesque way too difficult to face.

Agreed. Her saving him after that felt more self-serving than anything else -- "I don't want to be guilty of this" rather than "This is wrong."

I knew this would be all basestar all the time this week, so I was okay with that. Trust me that the previews for next week look good though. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee solacebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 11:30 pm (UTC)
I kind of love that Laura is secretly an OOC Lee/Kara shipper. LOL.
It did make me laugh! :)

And yet, as I said -- I'LL STILL MAKE ICONS DAMMIT.
Please do! I love that you're so determinedly getting stuff out of the show regardless of how little they give us. ;) I can understand that from a vidding perspective. I find I watch now thinking 'let there be at least one good shot'. Hee!

Her saving him after that felt more self-serving than anything else -- "I don't want to be guilty of this" rather than "This is wrong."
*nods* It really did. And given that in these sorts of scenes where a character has a last-minute change of heart, that is ALWAYS a danger, I think the writers should have been a lot more careful with their material. I didn't come away convinced that Laura had undergone a significant shift in thinking, even though I know that's what we were supposed to think.

And Lee's speech in Crossroads was way better!

I knew this would be all basestar all the time this week, so I was okay with that.
Yeah, I knew that too, and it actually turned out to be better than I thought it would be. (I had low expectations!)

Trust me that the previews for next week look good though. :)
I'm avoiding them in the hope that it will actually be a good ep! When I start spoiling myself, you can tell I don't really care any more. ;) In a way, though, I'm going to be annoyed if it's a good episode, because I'll feel like they faffed around all half-season, and then got it together just in time to hook us back in for another uber-long hiatus. Grr!
The First Evil: Lee/Laura - By Your Sideasta77 on June 9th, 2008 04:43 pm (UTC)
Part 1
I've got the can't-be-bothereds about posting on BSG this week, in a major way. I watched the episode a day or so ago and have been procrastinating about posting. But the completionist in me is compelling me to post something.

I feel the same way, not about this episode, but there have been weeks where I didn't wish to post, but felt I had to because I post on every episode and people expect me to post about every episode. I’m a slave to LJ!

So I didn't hate it, but I did find it had large dollops of WTF

Heh. That sums it up pretty well.

At first I found the message interesting: the idea that Laura doesn't love people. I particularly liked the creepiness of the line 'don't you just hate these people?' because sometimes I think she does.

I agree that Laura sometimes does hate these people, especially when they are getting on her last nerve. ;) But I didn’t buy the 'doesn’t love people' spiel. I’ve always felt she does love people, at least a handful such as Adama, Lee, and Billy. But at some point in her presidency she decided that she couldn’t show people she loved them and, in a broader sense, couldn’t show her feelings because it would be a sign of weakness and vulnerability and she couldn’t afford that with how she came into office and with people like Baltar and Zarek looking for anyway to attack. Unfortunately, that choice led to her disconnecting herself from the people and creating a whole other set of problems.

I thought it was hilarious how out of character Kara was in Laura's vision. I'm going to write that off as Laura being full of herself again, because Kara rarely wants comforted by anybody when someone dies, and I really don't think Laura dying would be that big a deal to her. I could maybe, maybe buy her wanting a hug from Lee if Adama died. Maybe. Though I'd still find it more in character for her to just drink herself senseless. In any case, I got a giggle out of how emo Laura's Head!Kara was.

It seems I had a different take on the inclusion of Kara at Laura’s deathbed than most people did. I thought Laura assumed, rightfully so, that Kara would be there to support and console Adama and Lee, knowing how hard they would take Laura’s death. (And, unlike Adama, I think she knows just how close Lee and Kara are.) It struck me that in the first shot of them all, as Lee becomes visibly upset, Kara is quick to put her hand on his shoulder.

There are also some deleted scenes (floating around the net) from ‘Epiphanies’ that were included in the Season 2 box set released in France that show Lee and Kara, separately, visiting Laura on her death bed. Those scenes aren’t canon since they were cut from the final product, but if we were to consider them then, again, it makes sense that Laura believes Kara would come to her again as she is dying.

Watching him interact with the Hybrid and try to convert the Centurion to his religion was hilarious.

I never considered Baltar was trying to convert him! That’s an interesting take. At least it would make some sense of the scene. ;)
The First Evil: Laura - saviour - wurlockeasta77 on June 9th, 2008 04:43 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 1
Where it fell down for me was in the spiritual visions she was having. I found them, by this stage of the episode, laboured and heavy-handed.

When Baltar use to have his visions of life with Six back on Caprica, did we have as many scenes in an episode as we had with Laura and Elosha here? Because, I agree, the visions were crossing from potentially insightful to "bored now".

and the message about Gaius felt like a clunky rerun of Lee's speech from Crossroads

Which only proves how like minded Lee and Laura and that they should be together. Sorry! ;)

That seriously irritated me enough that I wanted him to die for a while there.

I have a witness that during the Baltar/Centerion scene I was going, “Shoot him! Shoot him!” ;)

And after seeing her deathbed scenes in vision form, I'm really hoping we don't have to live through them again in real time.

WORD. At this point I hope Laura gets blown up on Colonial One. I can’t go through these scenes again!

I do think that her illness has driven her to have a lot less patience and compassion for others, so I liked the idea that she might find that aspect of herself again. But I don't buy that this connects in any way with her being 'IN love' with Adama. Those are two very different forms of love, and I hate them being conflated. Laura telling Adama she loves him doesn't change a damn thing, and I hate that the show played it like somehow that was a great moment of growth for Laura. Not killing Gaius was growth of a sort that might have significant consequences. Telling Adama she's in love with him is just a private thing that seemed to bring her some release. And oh my, could he be any less gracious or more conceited?! 'ABOUT TIME?!?!?!' *deathglare* Rude much.

I agree with every single word you typed here. ::smooches::
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on June 9th, 2008 11:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 1
When Baltar use to have his visions of life with Six back on Caprica, did we have as many scenes in an episode as we had with Laura and Elosha here? Because, I agree, the visions were crossing from potentially insightful to "bored now".
Right! And that was despite Elosha--it was very cool that they brought her back. I swear they didn't used to be so long and boring and heavyhanded.

Which only proves how like minded Lee and Laura and that they should be together. Sorry! ;)
Nah, don't apologise, Lee's definitely my first choice for Laura: Bill keeps sinking in my esteem as a suitor for her. Putting that ring on her dead finger? DISGUSTINGLY PRESUMPTUOUS.

I have a witness that during the Baltar/Centerion scene I was going, “Shoot him! Shoot him!” ;)
Hee. :) Baltar is fun to hate. Except when he's bleeding veeeeeery sloooooooowly to death. Then it just got boring. My dog is my only witness to me screaming 'oh just die already!'

At this point I hope Laura gets blown up on Colonial One. I can’t go through these scenes again!
I really can't! It's agonising. If I had the faith in the writers that I used to have, I'd say that this episode has ensured that she won't have another hospital deathbed scene after all.

I agree with every single word you typed here. ::smooches::
I started fantasising about Lee punching his dad out during the Laura/Adama reunion scene. :D I am evil. But seriously, Adama needs to stop getting rewarded for his presumptuous egocentric behaviour.
The First Evil: Six - Angry - poker-boyasta77 on June 10th, 2008 02:53 am (UTC)
Re: Part 1
Bill keeps sinking in my esteem as a suitor for her. Putting that ring on her dead finger? DISGUSTINGLY PRESUMPTUOUS.

My first thought was why the hell didn't he propose while she was healthy enough to accept? Even her subconscious is well aware that he's emotional cripple who waits until it's too late. WHY WOULD SHE TELL HIM SHE LOVES HIM?!?!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on June 10th, 2008 04:57 am (UTC)
Re: Part 1
I have no clue. It didn't work for me at all. As I was just saying to dianora2 if some guy did that to me, I'd come back from the afterlife and SMITE THEM. Even if I *did* want them to propose in real life: a) I would just do so myself if it meant that much to me, and b) I would be soooo infuriated that they waited until I was dead! At the very best I would find it tragic and pathetic and when offered a re-run I'd be all 'level up, already!' to the guy. I don't get like that they played that as her epiphany moment about loving him: it worked against that for me. If they'd shown him maybe bringing the ring out and looking at it, or putting it on his OWN finger maybe? That would have shown that he was committed to her even after she passed--that would have been touching. But putting in on HER was just vile.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on June 9th, 2008 11:44 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 1
I feel the same way, not about this episode, but there have been weeks where I didn't wish to post, but felt I had to because I post on every episode and people expect me to post about every episode. I’m a slave to LJ!
It's a horrible feeling, isn't it? I've never really felt like this before this season of BSG. Normally I can get something out of any episode and the process of writing about them usually makes me find more things of interest. But this season's just killed me... I feel weird posting when I don't want to post because it seems so dishonest, or something. I feel like I'm not 'myself'. :( Normally, if I don't have anything positive to say about something, I don't post. But I feel like I made a commitment to BSG, and not posting seems like a betrayal... it's silly, I know. I honestly don't think anyone would care if I didn't post--for me, it's more of a personal commitment, but it still makes me feel trapped.

I didn’t buy the 'doesn’t love people' spiel. I’ve always felt she does love people, at least a handful such as Adama, Lee, and Billy. But at some point in her presidency she decided that she couldn’t show people she loved them and, in a broader sense, couldn’t show her feelings because it would be a sign of weakness and vulnerability
I agree. And you've summed up why the simplicity of the message didn't work for me. It was interesting, but when analysed too closely, it doesn't hold up. I definitely think she loved Billy, for instance--she was shown mourning him deeply. I agree that the real issue is that she's shut herself off from others emotionally because she feels it's necessary to protect her presidency. I think if the writing had been better this could have been explored more subtly.

I thought Laura assumed, rightfully so, that Kara would be there to support and console Adama and Lee, knowing how hard they would take Laura’s death.
Hmm. It didn't play that way to me, but I will have another look, just for you. ;) It still means Kara's a bit ooc in Laura's mind, because I don't really see her as the nurturing type(!), but it's sweet of Laura to want her there for Adama's and Lee's sake.

if we were to consider them then, again, it makes sense that Laura believes Kara would come to her again as she is dying
I actually liked that she was there. Especially after this season where she and Laura have faced off so much. I buy that Laura means something to Kara. I just didn't buy her being so emo about it. If she'd just been standing in the background, a step behind Lee, for instance, behind a curtain or something, that would have played more in character for me. There was a shot where Kara's profile was in the foreground while Laura and Elosha talked--that put way too big an emphasis on Kara for me. I think I was also expecting more from Lee, and instead it felt like Kara kind of eclipsed him in the vision but perhaps it wasn't meant that way.

I never considered Baltar was trying to convert him! That’s an interesting take. At least it would make some sense of the scene. ;)
Haha, maybe it was just me... it went on long enough that I started a whole rambling aside in my own brain about how Gaius's conversion program focuses on the dregs of both fleets, those who are feel disempowered in all other ways and who can therefore be swayed most easily. :D I kind of like the idea of his harem being infiltrated with a bunch of Centurions. ;) BSG gives me too much time to think up crackfic premises these days...
Allison: Laura  - Riverfrolicndetour on June 9th, 2008 11:01 pm (UTC)
I'm going to write that off as Laura being full of herself again, because Kara rarely wants comforted by anybody when someone dies, and I really don't think Laura dying would be that big a deal to her.

That scene did strike me as odd, but I didn't get the idea that Laura was in charge of what she was seeing. I don't know if it was an actual vision of a possible future or something head-Elosha cooked up (in which case the OOC would make sense), but I can see her wanting to comfort Lee - Latte posted screencaps where you could see his distress more clearly before she hugged him. Plus, watching someone who was even a tiny bit of a maternal figure (if only in the matriarch sense) die of cancer would have to affect her. That said, you're right that she's generally more stoic... I could go either way. ;) (Leave it to me to analyze .05 seconds of Kara screen-time this much.)

Also loved the humorous touches with Laura and Gaius and the Centurian. And D'anna - she may be my favorite female Cylon now. Actually, I had the thought before that she might be an exception to the rule about their sexuality - she had a relationship with Baltar that seemed to be about a mutual intellectual attraction rather than her seducing him or being victimized by him. Her problem is just her really bad taste. ;)

One of the problems with that message, for me, was the way that it paralleled Gaius's own deathbed ramblings about all his guilt 'flying away' because he is loved by God.

I DO hope that we weren't supposed to sympathize with Gaius and his lack of guilt. I totally identified with Laura's shaking with revulsion. (That was some amazing acting by MM, I thought, even for her.) I thought, actually, that Elosha and Baltar were preaching opposed philosophies: Gaius feels he's automatically forgiven, whereas Laura has to do something extremely distasteful to her and she doesn't even get the Hershey-bar (or whatever comes in Australian vending machines *g*) of salvation. Gaius believes he helped humanity by killing a whole bunch of them/Elosha tells Laura if she doesn't save Gaius she can't save anyone. Admittedly, my desire for a mono-vs. poly-theist throwdown is probably coloring my views.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on June 10th, 2008 12:59 am (UTC)
I don't know if it was an actual vision of a possible future or something head-Elosha cooked up (in which case the OOC would make sense),
I'm more inclined to think it was something head!Elosha cooked up, since it actually jumped around oddly and had a dreamlike quality (the empty halls). So being OOC isn't entirely inappropriate--I just found it amusing.

D'anna - she may be my favorite female Cylon now
I feel the same way! And good call about her connection to Gaius being more empowered than the other female Cylons (though yeah, bad taste!).

I DO hope that we weren't supposed to sympathize with Gaius and his lack of guilt.
Surely not? I hope so, anyway. I felt myself distancing myself from that scene because that concept was too revolting.

Gaius believes he helped humanity by killing a whole bunch of them/Elosha tells Laura if she doesn't save Gaius she can't save anyone. Admittedly, my desire for a mono-vs. poly-theist throwdown is probably coloring my views.
I like it, but I don't think it was intentionally played as a throwdown. The writing was heavyhanded through most of the episode so if they'd intended it this way I think it would have been made a lot clearer. Doesn't mean I don't like your reading though! :D I think it is there if you want to see it. But I found it quite blurrily ambiguous exactly which religion Roslin's visions came from. You would assume polytheism with Elosha there, and yet the message being sent was quite complementary to Gaius's own religious preaching: love is the answer? o.O I think the simplicity of the message 'just love someone' detracted from any attempt to distinguish the two religions.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on June 10th, 2008 05:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee frak betide!bop_radar on June 10th, 2008 05:53 am (UTC)
asta77 called it the Han Solo moment too. Funnily enough I was never a Han Solo fan. ;)
Zoi: bsg-tigh3gomez on June 21st, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
Gaius whores around with Tory and his harem and considers himself 'loved' and saved; Tigh is 'saved' by crazy vision sex with Caprica; Adama proves his love for Laura by hanging around in space hopelessly (suicidally, as Lee calls it); Laura loves Adama, despite what a crazy action this is. I'd be a lot more convinced by it if the characters didn't all seem to be displaying severe mental illness.
I just wanted to say that I completely agree with the above words.
The episode was touching and all very well acted,but the course of the story seemed so...unbelievable.

And Adama's ABANDONING the whole fleet still has my eyes rolling...
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on June 22nd, 2008 10:53 am (UTC)
Yeah, the overall course of the show in season 4 is definitely WTF. I've realised it's shifted completely from how it started off as space realism. It is now well and truly a concept show and is only really (vaguely) working on that level. As realism, it's reached epic levels of fail.

And as for Adama... I don't really know what to say. It's just ridiculous that his character gets away with this stuff.