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14 June 2008 @ 04:57 pm
BSG 4.10 Revelations  
OK, that was a REALLY good episode. I enjoyed every moment of it--the first episode I've enjoyed fully since Six of One. (Sine Qua Non was good because it had Lee, but not that good.) But I am absolutely baffled by the directorial decisions made this season. It felt like they raced through the material in this episode: it could comfortably have been a two-parter. The rest of the season really dragged, and then in this ep they hit the fast forward button. Was it because of the writer's strike? I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I can see what they meant about this being a possible endpoint for the whole series. Wow! I am so SO glad I was unspoiled for any of this going in, so I thank everyone who marked their spoilers carefully from the bottom of my heart! I'm super-glad I hadn't even seen the previews because it made everything an amazing surprise. *G* It was not what I had expected AT ALL. I did think there was a chance this would be a decent episode, but I thought I'd wind up more frustrated if BSG hooked me back in again just to be on a cliffhanger for goodness-knows-how-long. I'm not frustrated at all! I feel some degree of closure. *marvels*

It'll be interesting to see how this episode settles with me but right now part of me doesn't really want any more to the series... the bad bits of this season were SO bad, and while I did love this episode, I think it whitewashed over a lot of difficult issues in its speed. The remainder of season 4 will either deal with those successfully and in an interesting way or ... won't. I think I'll be very very wary of the rest of the season because I don't want a repeat of what happened to me with this half (i.e. expectations getting raised and then unfulfilled until the last ep).

I had SO many squee moments in this episode, I don't know where to start. 'Hey there, Mr Pres' would probably do though! :D Oh, my glee that they ACTUALLY TALKED. THANK GOD! Despite how awesome the rest of the episode was (and it was) I think I'd have still felt something was missing without such a scene. The season opened with Lee and Kara: it needed to end with them as well, and while it didn't END end with them, at least they built in this scene to provide some sense of continuity with the way the season opened.

Their exchange was really interesting. It foreshadowed, of course, the arrival at the temple of Aurora on Earth. But in many ways it felt like it was also the missing dialogue from the scene where they saw Adama off. Kara's tone was tease-y when she called Lee 'Mr Pres' and Lee was all emo (awww) about his dad... I found it very interesting that Kara was so calm and was the one to offer emotional insight in the scene. It feels like she's really found that calm centred space that we've seen flickers of ever since her return. I loved Lee's story about fearing going into his dad's study (OMG I relate to that SO MUCH! My father had a desk I dreaded as well!) as insight into his childhood, but also to build a sense of what a long shadow Adama casts. Kara's observation, even if it did come via Leoben, is a valid one and I wonder if it foreshadows at all what might happen in the second half of the season (probably not though: I don't think the show's that brave these days).

Second squee moment of the season was definitely Laura telling Bill he had to nuke the basestar if need be. Yay Laura! Gaius thanking her for saving her life was hideously awkward and if I was her I'd have been seriously regretting doing so at that point in time. But her resolution did provide a brilliant comeback. ;)

Third was seeing Gaeta back on duty! :D I'm so glad. And I squeed when Dee called him 'Felix' and I loved the way she lifted her chin when he said 'good to go'. I think those two would be really cute together, and I guess I'm just really glad that Gaeta has a friend to see him through this hard time. (In my personal canon she totally visited him in hospital.)

Fourth squee moment? Lee and Kara running down the ladder together. Oh how I've missed that!

D'Anna's entrance was very compelling, especially with all four secret Cylons present. That was one time I didn't mind the anvilly looks, because the threat of exposure was right there. And it was interesting that one of the Four had the opportunity to go with the Cylons without exposing herself straight away. Tory has most embraced her Cylon aspect so it was very fitting that she sided the way she did, but her 'cover' (Laura's medicine) worked well.

The contrast between Laura and Gaius when Tory revealed her identity couldn't have been more marked. Gaius immediately claims that he'd known all along (HA!), whereas Laura admits honestly that she had no idea, and she apologises. Her fight with Tory was nasty, though I still kind of think that Tory deserved a lot of it, and I didn't like Tory's snide comments to her. I did think Laura came off as quite desperate in trying to persuade Tory to get the Cylons to listen to her--she showed her hand far too soon and underestimated how alientated Tory was.

Of course this scene also began the awesomeness of seeing Lee actually act as President. Colour me VERY surprised that they let him do that! My fifth squee moment was Adama saying 'it's your call, Mr President' and Lee saying 'Roslin's right' (she is! yay!). I'm not usually one to see Lee and his father as incredibly alike (despite the way the show textually pushes that idea), but I did think it was very obvious in that scene that both Adamas were hiding their pain about potentially having to kill Roslin, Helo and the others. It was very reminiscent of Razor, actually.

I really enjoyed Tigh in this episode--probably because he got his shit together. :) I'm very glad they chose him as the one to threaten airlock to, because if it had been either of the other two I would have been bidding for them to get airlocked. But as it was, I was invested in Tigh staying alive, because he was the only one with the guts to come forward. He acted out of love for Bill, and his emotional journey in the episode was well tracked. Tigh's desperation was obvious when he asked if there wasn't an alternative, and I loved Kara's snappy reply. When Lee ordered the basestar nuked, Tigh looked seriously in shock. The parallel to him killing his wife because he thought it was the 'right' thing to do must have been so strong to him when Adama responded to Lee's command with a restrained 'yes, Mr President'.

And yes, that was my biggest squee moment of the whole ep. I just loved that Adama had to accept his son in that role. I know the show decided to play Adama as being ok with Lee's career shift, but they've also stopped short of him actually giving Lee his approval. And then to have the first major decision of Lee as President be to order the execution of Roslin and the others... wow! He absolutely had to do it, and I think Adama did know that, but of course it was hard to swallow and not surprising that both Adamas avoided conflict over that. (Hee! I think that might actually constitute growth for them!)

I loved Tigh coming forward to Adama--that was a fabulous scene, though Bill's inital lack of reaction made me laugh. I'm glad it was made clear it actually was denial, because sometimes I can't tell! And FINALLY they address the oddness of having Tigh be revealed as a Cylon (the fact he's aged, the fact he has a history with Adama) and the mindfrak aspects of it (his imprisonment on New Caprica, Ellen's death). I actually found it really convincing that Adama would explore first of all the idea that perhaps that Cylons did something to Tigh on New Caprica--I'm surprised Tigh himself didn't suspect that at any stage. The impulse to think of some other way to explain things would be a natural reaction, I'd imagine.

After all Tigh's own denial it was very cool to see him assert his identity to Adama. And I loved the way he instantly removed his hands from Adama's shoulders when asked, to show how he's not a threat, he's still just him. And wow, what a cool self-sacrificial act! I think Tigh's reasoning was solid: it did seem likely that D'Anna would back down, but I do also believe that Tigh knew there was some real risk to himself, and I believe he was willing to die if necessary.

Against all expectation, I actually did feel some sympathy for Bill. I couldn't help thinking that this could have been Lee and Kara... I can SO imagine Kara going to Lee and telling him to threaten to airlock her because the Cylons wanted her. And Bill's obvious distress and rage at the impossible situation were therefore a bit easier for me to connect with. He did lose a touch of sympathy though when he drank himself into oblivion... *frowns* And poor Lee... even as President he has to caretake for his own parent.

I thought it was interesting that Lee assumed that Bill was blaming himself for not noticing that Tigh was a Cylon. It makes sense that Lee would think that because it's how Lee's mind would work, but I'm not sure if it was Bill's biggest hang up or not. He seemed to be more just... sorrowful. And his breakdown about so many people to die kind of just confused me. I mean I think he's made mistakes sometimes but to generalise like that made no sense and I couldn't quite understand what emotional journey he was undergoing there. Does he feel the whole war is pointless if the Cylons are just like him and Tigh? But they could hardly just have turned round early on and said that, could they? The Cylons would have nuked them. And in any case the Final Four didn't know, and we STILL don't know what they really are or how they function. (The wooly status of the FF is still something that sits uncomfortably with me.)

I loved (of course!) Lee telling his dad to get it together. I nearly made another insta-reaction post just for that. ;) And I thought it was REALLY interesting to reflect on their journey since the mini-series when Adama first announced the idea of finding Earth to the fleet, believing it to be a lie. Lee didn't believe in it immediately, but along the way he's evidently come to believe it and Kara coming back had a huge part to do with that, I believe. Though I personally wish we could have been given more insight into Lee's shift in understanding regarding this, especially as it proved so critical in this episode!

But ohhh, heartbreak on the 'I'll take care of it!' line. Oh, Lee! *heart thump* Of course, it gave him the opportunity to punch Tigh and I imagine that must have been very satisfying. ;) And omg, I was fangirling him so hard in his exchange with D'Anna! :D :D :D

My love for Tigh continued to grow when he gave up the names of the other two. YAY! This does a lot to redeem his despicable actions in Collaborators for me. Galen and Sam came over as far more cowardly, though I know we were meant to think that they were preoccupied with the Viper. Personally I think that was just a convenient distraction to avoid thinking about the many people who were about to die (thank you, Tigh!). Of course it turned out to have actual plot purpose, but then Sam always does get off the hook for things.

Kara's frustration with them was enjoyable. While I can understand why Sam brought up the fact that they'd trusted Kara, the problem was that Kara didn't have any particular reason to believe that they would have a connection to Earth unless they were secretly Cylons and she wouldn't want to believe that. And oh, my poor poor Kara! (Another time I nearly insta-reaction-posted!) Finding out about Sam that way was terrible I thought and she looked so completely devastated. :( I know they didn't play it this way on the show, but to me, I feel she'd be seriously VERY freaked out to know that Sam had been lying to her and sleeping with her all this time knowing he was a Cylon. He didn't even get time to tell her how long he'd know. She's basically just found out that she's been reliving her experience with Leoben without even knowing it.

Of course with the pace this episode was blasting along at, she didn't have long to experience that trauma or work through it. I'm glad for her in one way (Kara in more pain than before is not something I want) but from a storytelling perspective I thought it was kinda weak. It's one reason I'd have rather seen the material in this episode explored over a two-parter. But anyway, conveniently Kara had the Viper to focus on.

Lee didn't really seem to react at all to finding out that Sam and Galen were Cylons. That felt odd to me. He's worked with Tyrol for so long! And he and Sam have had a long rivalry but they also found respect for each other, especially after Kara's death. I expected ... something. I realise it was a crisis situation and Lee was keeping it together very well (good boy!) but it also felt like a missed opportunity and rushed for omg!drama reasons. Having said that, I thought the tension was built wonderfully and I was totally gripping the edge of my seat. *g* I did wonder whether we were meant to read anything into him leaving Tigh as the one to be airlocked (first) but really, given that Tigh offered himself in that position, that was a no-brainer.

I really appreciated the fact that Gaius proved at least potentially useful again. All through the series he's played a part in critical turning points for the fleet, and while he usually talks up his role as being even greater than it actually is, it's impossible to prove for certain that things wouldn't have turned out differently if he hadn't been there. Also I looooved that Gaius knew how to read Lee correctly. (Tory, you do NOT know Lee. Shut the hell up!) It built on the fact that Gaius knows Lee's psychology well from the trial, and gave another aspect to Laura saving Gaius.

Side note: Galen really creeped me out with his little nod to Tigh. What the hell was that?

Trucco gets points for making me splutter coffee all over my computer with his delivery of 'let me guess: you told them?' That was very funny.

The other very funny scene?
Kara: Like it or not, Lee, something's orchestrating this for a purpose.
Me: *screaming at screen* YEAH! RDM!

Hmph. I'm with Lee. It's a stretch. I think that scene between the two of them was probably the most rushed of the whole episode for me. It was such a critical turning point and it needed to be sold as psychologically convincing. And I'm sorry, Kara, but I don't buy that all these dots you're joining were necessary. Are we supposed to believe that the Hybrid on that specific basestar was the only way they could ever have found out that the Final Five have been to Earth? And that the buzzer wasn't going to go off in the heads of the Final Five until D'Anna showed up? o.O So 'like it or not' is well pitched to me. I don't like it, it doesn't feel solid to me, but I have to go with it anyway.

The actual end results of all of this, I'm on board with. I just don't think the path there has been paved as well as it should or could have been. It was at this point that the episode really started whizzing through material, I felt. It was SUCH a huge thing to share the information with the Cylons. I do buy that Lee would do this, I think he's one of the only leaders who would do so. Adama and Laura are maybe too stuck in their ways--certainly we know Laura wasn't about to, though who knows what her recent discovery of 'love' might have changed in her? *eyeroll* I can see two reasons why Lee would take this path: firstly he believes in Kara and that Kara will find Earth, and she's advocating it; secondly it's sensible politics, it's politics of trust and believing the best in people (or Cylons!) and that's what he's all about. However I do think we needed to see more of his inner psychology regarding the Cylons, as well as about the fact that he's still a skeptic where it comes to the idea of a higher power. But perhaps that's just a Lee fan craving more of her favourite character...

It felt rushed from other character perspectives too. After the terrific material between Helo and the not-Athena Sharon last episode, I thought it would have been good to have shown them in the 'handover of information' scene. Or at least seen the reaction from that particular Eight to the shift in human policy. It was a big shift for D'Anna as well, after being so willing to kill all the remaining humans. They'd made clear that the Cylons would follow the leadership of the Four, which is fine, except that we didn't actually get to hear what the Four said themselves! I presume Tigh and Sam opted to stay with the humans, but Tory and Galen's psychologies are enough of a mystery to me that that wasn't a given in my mind. In a longer episode I would have liked to have seen more on that. If they spent so long exploring them in the rest of the season, why not now when their decisions really count?

But thank goodness they built in time for a Laura-Lee scene. *grateful* It was short but beautiful and I actually really love that it wasn't played as conflict. They were both just so beautifully gracious to each other! I believed both of them completely as well. Lee IS glad to see Laura back, and Laura does think Lee did a good job. *sniffles*

In a longer episode we could have seen the Kara/Lee recon. plan... *yearns*

Oh well. Jumping to Earth did need to be a big moment and I did find it moving. It was showy and emotional and over the top and I totally LOL'd when Bill said they had to 'roll a hard six' (what the frak does that MEAN?! I still don't know!) but fitting. And great fun. And moving also. The bit that gave me total spine tingles was Gaeta saying 'visible constellations are a match'. Like Laura and Lee I totally teared up at that! And I had to laugh at Lee feeling that stripping was an appropriate way of celebrating. He should have kept going! Gaeta got hugs: whoo!

The shots of people around the fleet reacting were alternately hilarious, moving or tragic to me... I liked seeing the little Cybrids--a good reminder of the future, Gaeta's religious cult still freaks me out and their reaction was too absurd for me not to laugh at. Lee saying 'you did it' to his father felt very like Lee being self-deprecating, quite frankly. I know he meant to show Adama his appreciation for leading the fleet for so long (Lee knows how hard that is!) but I felt the 'we' was a lovely gesture following Lee's critical involvement in the final stages.

SO cool to see the fleet beside Earth... and then I kind of freaked out when I realised there was more. And wow, what an eerie montage to end on. So that was the Temple of Aurora but it's in ruins, yes? And it's so desolate. Kara's facial expression was the thing that really broke me though. Clearly Earth is not going to be the haven they hoped it...

And I guess that last montage was to pave the way for the second half of the season. It was very ... stagey. Most of the characters were not reacting, had stony faces. D'Anna was among the most animatedly, obviously upset, which I thought was interesting. I liked the way she came and looked shocked at Adama and Roslin. That sold the idea that it was a shock for both Cylons AND humans. It was an unsettling ending, but in another way it did feel like closure of some sort. I guess the nihilist in me likes the idea of their 'destined' endpoint not being a utopia.

Thinking about it this feels like an episode to please everyone, and that contributes to the sense of closure. I was kind of laughing at how they covered all the ships and characters in some way:
- Adama/Roslin were central, obvy
- Kara/Lee had several scenes where they actually talked (!) and clearly worked as a team
- Kara/Sam were framed as Kara's current ship, even if they're still on uneasy terms for now, when they panned around the Fleet (and yes, I did have a selfish pang for the miniseries equivalent scene which was Lee/Kara *sniffles*)
- Leoben was standing nearest to Kara on Earth
- Laura and Lee had a lovely if brief scene
- Dee was in the episode LOTS *shock*, and there was implied Dee/Gaeta flirting
- Caprica approached Tigh near the end
- Tory approached Sam and he shrugged away but since they haven't had anything to do with each other for ages I figure that's a reflection on inner-FF angst, not shippiness (presumably the other three are not on good terms with her). Interesting that Tory wasn't with Gaius though...
- Helo and Athena were shown briefly (they were probably the most neglected in this ep but there's been lots of them all season)
- Galen was shown with his baby...
Something for everyone! \o/

The big thing I'm really left wondering about is who the final Cylon is, if it's not anyone in the Fleet. Does that mean it's someone we don't even know? Or is it someone from the past/the dead? If Kara can come back from the dead, I guess other people could? Ugh, it's all so foggy anything's possible. Next half-season I want ANSWERS!

Ok, that was long and rambly and not very meta-y but I am out of practice with 'real' meta, as daybreak777 calls what I used to write about the show... perhaps there will be something more coherent once this settles. *g*
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: cheerfulcheerful
 
 
 
Fleegull: Bonkersfleegull on June 14th, 2008 12:36 pm (UTC)
So that was the Temple of Aurora but it's in ruins, yes?

I've read people saying it's supposed to be the remains of the Brooklyn Bridge and that's supposed to be Manhattan behind it BUT just having driven over the Brooklyn Bridge last night....if it was supposed NYC, they did a piss poor job conveying it. Even another NY'er who watched it was totally baffled about where they were supposed to be.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on June 14th, 2008 12:40 pm (UTC)
Hahaha, you're kidding me?! It was supposed to be NYC?! Noo... I totally didn't get that.
Fleegull: KFLana by Rawienfleegull on June 14th, 2008 01:09 pm (UTC)
It was supposed to be NYC?! Noo... I totally didn't get that.


Neither am I and I maintain that it was NOT NYC until I am told otherwise by RDM.

Edited at 2008-06-14 01:09 pm (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Jamie whateverbop_radar on June 14th, 2008 10:48 pm (UTC)
Ditto!
The First Evil: Erm...okay - Lee - Nyusziasta77 on June 14th, 2008 02:39 pm (UTC)
I'm not convinced that earth is our earth, but my problem with that being Manhattan and the Brooklyn Bridge is that we are to buy the Temple of Aurora was built right outside the city? I'm assuming that is the Temple since they made a point of showing us the drawing again. And if you look closely at the drawing (I paused the image on my TV) it appears there are more modern, skyscraper like buildings around the temple. I can believe that this was the home of the thirteenth colony and they blew themselves up, but I've become increasingly convinced this season that life originated on earth and, therefore, that's not our earth.

Or I'll have egg on my face. ;p
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - karaantismiles on June 14th, 2008 01:59 pm (UTC)
Briefly:

the awesomeness of seeing Lee actually act as President.
*singsongs* I told you we would have those scenes. See what happens when you fervently believe against all evidence to the contrary? ;)

Everything else? Well, uh, I'm still trying to piece together my thoughts, but I'll probably agree with everything you said. I must say the ending scene was my favorite scene the entire episode, because it was awesome and their expressions were such a contrast to the previous scene where they were all joyous. And like you, I like that Earth isn't a utopia.

(And I was ecstatic that Kara and Lee talked. Does this mean that my ship no longer only exists in Roslin's head and has returned to existing in reality? Kind of? Maybe? Just a little bit?)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on June 14th, 2008 10:57 pm (UTC)
See what happens when you fervently believe against all evidence to the contrary? ;)
Hee! I'm glad your faith was paid off! I had such an opposite experience: I feel like I got beaten down to a place where I had zero hope at all and then everything I did get felt like a SHINY AMAZING MIRACLE! :D

I was ecstatic that Kara and Lee talked. Does this mean that my ship no longer only exists in Roslin's head and has returned to existing in reality? Kind of? Maybe? Just a little bit?
Yes, yes, just a teenie little bit! :D :D I have found my OTP zen a bit again. They know each other! They talk to one another! They work together as a TEAM! *bounces*

I don't think they're a couple though. And that seems CRAZYCAKES to me, but I've kind of come to terms with the fact that TPTB aren't interested in them that way any more. I'm just delighted that they remembered that their destinies were once linked...
cheryladcherylad on June 14th, 2008 02:01 pm (UTC)
K.. quick thing before I read beyond the first couple of lines.... the reference of the epi that could serve as the end-point of the series but that it would be the most depressing end ever? That was the NEXT epi - the last one filmed before the strike.

okay.. back to read!!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee lolbop_radar on June 14th, 2008 10:52 pm (UTC)
Oh. Weird. OK that is even MORE crazycakes then! I thought THIS would have been a great ending! *lol* I am so NEVER WHERE THEY WANT ME TO BE with this show these days...
The First Evil: Lee - Polite Face - lila-valeriusasta77 on June 14th, 2008 02:31 pm (UTC)
Second squee moment of the season was definitely Laura telling Bill he had to nuke the basestar if need be. Yay Laura!

THAT is the Laura I know and love. And it was as close to getting what I wanted to get which is Laura pushing personal feelings aside and telling Bill to get his ass back to the fleet and do his job. It’s not about them, it’s about all of them.

but I did think it was very obvious in that scene that both Adamas were hiding their pain about potentially having to kill Roslin, Helo and the others. It was very reminiscent of Razor, actually.

I’m glad that Lee was allowed to show what a tough call that was for him to make. Maybe they haven’t been getting along well recently, but it’s obvious that Lee cares about Laura politically and personally and to be responsible for her death would be hard for him to bare.

I loved Tigh coming forward to Adama--that was a fabulous scene, though Bill's inital lack of reaction made me laugh. I'm glad it was made clear it actually was denial, because sometimes I can't tell!

I was perplexed by his initial non-reaction. But as the scene played out and Adama denied what Tigh was telling him and rationalized why Tigh might be saying the things he was saying (I loved Adama’s comment about going to see Doc Cottle) it was clear that the King of Denial was taking that denial to whole new levels. In the past, when Lee and Kara would tell him things or try to tell him things he didn’t want to hear, he would find a way to shut them down. Tigh wasn’t going to back down.

And his breakdown about so many people to die kind of just confused me. I mean I think he's made mistakes sometimes but to generalise like that made no sense and I couldn't quite understand what emotional journey he was undergoing there.

I saw a snippet of the scene in a promo last week and was clueless as to what he was referring to. I figured when I saw the clip in context it would make sense. Not really! There was some very poor editing, imho, in this episode, I wonder if some lines of dialogue were cut that would have made his thoughts clearer. As many mistakes as Tigh has made in his military career, he hasn’t done anything to cause a massive loss of life. Yes, there were the suicide bombings on New Caprica, but Tigh felt he was helping to gain their freedom and, ultimately, save lives. If Adama was convincing himself that having Tigh by his side for thirty some years played a role in their current situation, he’s very mistaken. However, in ‘Hero’, Adama blamed himself for the destruction of the colonies, so we probably shouldn’t be shocked that Mr It’s All About Me is, once again, shouldering the blame for humanity’s plight.

I loved (of course!) Lee telling his dad to get it together.

Awesome moment. And Lee was beginning to look exasperated.

Though I personally wish we could have been given more insight into Lee's shift in understanding regarding this, especially as it proved so critical in this episode!

Me too. It doesn’t shock me that Lee believed they were close to finding earth. If nothing else, Lee wants people and ideas and goals to put his faith in. But I do wish we could have seen more of the process. It’s like his remark about a “higher power”. Does he believe in a higher power now? Does he need to believe in a higher power now, especially with Kara’s return?

Lee didn't really seem to react at all to finding out that Sam and Galen were Cylons. That felt odd to me.

Maybe after the reveal of Tigh, finding out about Sam and Galen wasn’t that shocking? I also think the tears in Lee’s eyes as he was about to airlock Tigh weren’t just for Tigh, but for all of them. He was being forced into a position in which he had to kill his father’s BFF, Kara’s husband, and a man whose child had just recently lost his mother. He must have been hurt and angry, but, at the same time, I think he was feeling sympathy for them because, as he pointed out to his father, no one knew, including them.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on June 14th, 2008 11:49 pm (UTC)
THAT is the Laura I know and love. And it was as close to getting what I wanted to get which is Laura pushing personal feelings aside and telling Bill to get his ass back to the fleet and do his job.
Yeah, absolutely! It was close enough to that that I was pretty damn happy. That combined with her recognising Lee later on made me feel very gleeful. After last week's ep I didn't think we'd get that.

I’m glad that Lee was allowed to show what a tough call that was for him to make.
Yeah, I felt like there was growth there because he has the strength to show it's really hard but still do it anyway. He doesn't have to totally swallow his grief to do it, he knows he's got the strength to, but he also admits to himself how incredibly hard it is.

I loved Adama’s comment about going to see Doc Cottle
That was awesome!

it was clear that the King of Denial was taking that denial to whole new levels
HEE! So true.

Tigh wasn’t going to back down.
I think that's why I loved that scene so much. He just blasted through Adama's denial mechanism. Oh how many times have I wished someone would do that?! :)

I figured when I saw the clip in context it would make sense. Not really! There was some very poor editing, imho, in this episode
There was some TERRIBLE editing. And yet I still liked it! It's a miracle. But seriously, the editing was clunky visually as well as from a narrative perspective. It was horrible and I'm sure when I vid it I'll only find more errors. But yeah, that line... not so much with the context.

we probably shouldn’t be shocked that Mr It’s All About Me is, once again, shouldering the blame for humanity’s plight.
Hahaha, yeah, this is true, but I definitely felt like we missed a few leaps in logic there...

And Lee was beginning to look exasperated.
Well so would I!!

But I do wish we could have seen more of the process.
absolutely! I understand that the writers have never been consistently interested in Lee, but when they wrote it so that HIS shift was the critical one for the whole Fleet... I would have thought that might have been a trigger to firm that up, you know?

It’s like his remark about a “higher power”. Does he believe in a higher power now? Does he need to believe in a higher power now, especially with Kara’s return?
Seems like they're skimming over that because it's too hard. But my guess is that he still doesn't believe in one completely. It's very hard for me to imagine a Lee who believes in a higher power. And he was pretty clearly skeptical with Kara. I think he is willing to take that leap though for other reasons. Essentially he took the leap when she came back and he 'believed' in her, even if she turned out to be a Cylon... I think he sees that it's their only hope available and even if he doesn't believe in a higher power himself other people do, and it IS playing out a certain way, and he needs to believe they can be more than they are right now, so... he takes a calculated risk based on honesty and trust. I can see the appeal for Lee in that.

Maybe after the reveal of Tigh, finding out about Sam and Galen wasn’t that shocking?
Maybe. I'm not sure the psychology works that way though. Because they've always known anyone could be a Cylon... in theory that should make it easier when one is revealed, but it never has and I think every reveal would be a shock.

the tears in Lee’s eyes as he was about to airlock Tigh weren’t just for Tigh, but for all of them.
I can buy that, yes. I do think the tears were generalised. It just all felt very rushed to me, so yeah, I guess the tears were for all of that. I do think Lee was very firmly understanding that none of them knew. Him accepting Kara back so easily was the first step to finding compassion for those that are Cylons 'against their will'.
The First Evil: Lee/Laura - By Your Sideasta77 on June 14th, 2008 02:32 pm (UTC)
I hate comment limits...
Also I looooved that Gaius knew how to read Lee correctly. (Tory, you do NOT know Lee. Shut the hell up!)

I don’t know what the hell we are supposed to think about Tory. Is she on anyone’s side or just her own? Did she lie about what Lee would do or is she just that dumb?

After the terrific material between Helo and the not-Athena Sharon last episode, I thought it would have been good to have shown them in the 'handover of information' scene. Or at least seen the reaction from that particular Eight to the shift in human policy.

I’m assuming that was Athena 2.0 in the cockpit of Kara’s viper. Yes, it would have been nice to have seen her reaction to all of this and to have her and Athena come face to face.

Tory and Galen's psychologies are enough of a mystery to me that that wasn't a given in my mind.

Galen I think will stay on Galactica. He still feels loyalty to the people he serves with and being amongst the humans would be the best thing for his son. I don’t know where Tory is going to go. I can’t imagine Laura would want her back. Then again, she might enjoy torturing her. ;) My question is, with space so limited and a basestar in the middle of the fleet, will the Cylons stick around and let some of the humans move in?

But thank goodness they built in time for a Laura-Lee scene. *grateful* It was short but beautiful and I actually really love that it wasn't played as conflict. They were both just so beautifully gracious to each other! I believed both of them completely as well. Lee IS glad to see Laura back, and Laura does think Lee did a good job.

I think you know I’m in total agreement with you here.

So that was the Temple of Aurora but it's in ruins, yes? And it's so desolate. Kara's facial expression was the thing that really broke me though. Clearly Earth is not going to be the haven they hoped it...

I’m apparently in a teeny tiny, need to look at it under a microscope, minority that isn’t convinced that is earth, as in our earth. People are claiming we are seeing the New York skyline and remnants of the Brooklyn Bridge, but when did the Temple of Aurora get built just outside the city? I am assuming it’s the Temple. The camera certainly focused on the drawing in the book Lee was looking at long enough. And if you pause on the image you can see that surrounding the structure there appears to be more modern looking buildings. Then there's the fact Lee walked by a big honking stone cross. Or do we believe the temple was a Christian church? If this has all happened before and will happen again, maybe life on earth did destroy itself or maybe this is the thirteenth colony, but not where life originated (our earth).

The big thing I'm really left wondering about is who the final Cylon is, if it's not anyone in the Fleet. Does that mean it's someone we don't even know? Or is it someone from the past/the dead?

When D’Anna said the fifth wasn’t in the fleet I went, “Huh?” I can’t believe it’s someone we don’t know. Which would mean it’s someone who has died. It occurred to me that Ellen’s body was left on New Caprica. What if she was a Cylon and her physiology allowed her to recover from the poison? And, somehow, she either got off the planet or they end up going back for her? And was Zak’s body in that coffin? Leoben did say in the mini, “Adama is a Cylon”.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on June 15th, 2008 12:00 am (UTC)
Re: I hate comment limits...
I don’t know what the hell we are supposed to think about Tory. Is she on anyone’s side or just her own? Did she lie about what Lee would do or is she just that dumb?
No clue. I vote just dumb. *mean* Sorry, her line about Lee made me scream in rage.

I’m assuming that was Athena 2.0 in the cockpit of Kara’s viper. Yes, it would have been nice to have seen her reaction to all of this and to have her and Athena come face to face.
That's what I thought too and it would have been good to see that. I realise they might write more in on that later on but it kind of felt like they should seize the momentum from the previous episode to me.

My question is, with space so limited and a basestar in the middle of the fleet, will the Cylons stick around and let some of the humans move in?
So you figure they're still going to be living on the ships, not the ground? I guess we're supposed to believe that the whole of this Earth is desolate. But I'm sure I can't be the only one who was screaming 'just go to a nicer bit!' in that end sequence. ;) Realistically though, your question is a good one. I'm guessing we'll see some of that, yes, as they've taken the leap to the Uniting now.

People are claiming we are seeing the New York skyline and remnants of the Brooklyn Bridge, but when did the Temple of Aurora get built just outside the city?
Well it's very funny hearing this because I didn't get that at ALL. I will hate it if that's the case. Makes the whole show yet another American wankfest about how the whole universe is All About Them (sorry! nothing personal!).

I am assuming it’s the Temple. The camera certainly focused on the drawing in the book Lee was looking at long enough. And if you pause on the image you can see that surrounding the structure there appears to be more modern looking buildings.
*nods* I noticed that. And I'm sure this is meant to be the Temple because they made such a big deal of it in that scene.

Then there's the fact Lee walked by a big honking stone cross. Or do we believe the temple was a Christian church? If this has all happened before and will happen again, maybe life on earth did destroy itself or maybe this is the thirteenth colony, but not where life originated (our earth).
Mmm, I got a feeling of life on Earth having destroyed itself... but the 13th colony is another good theory.

When D’Anna said the fifth wasn’t in the fleet I went, “Huh?” I can’t believe it’s someone we don’t know. Which would mean it’s someone who has died.
Yeah I went through the same thought process. I was definitely very 'huh?!' I want it to be Kendra! :D It won't be though... Ellen's a possibility, definitely. Zak? Seems like a long shot because they forgot about him for so long but who knows?
The First Evil: Double Six - shadowserenityasta77 on June 15th, 2008 08:36 pm (UTC)
Re: I hate comment limits...
So you figure they're still going to be living on the ships, not the ground?

Well, I know it's very expensive for the show to shoot on location and money is very tight. I also read enough interviews that were done on set or at the studio to assume that, after the next episode, they'll be back on the ships. And would we really want to see New New Caprica? ;)

I will hate it if that's the case. Makes the whole show yet another American wankfest about how the whole universe is All About Them (sorry! nothing personal!).

Absolutely no offense since I will be pissed off if the intent was to make it an American city. I just really can't see Ron doing that. Yes, BSG is a American production, but it shoots in Vancouver with a Canadian crew, they have British actors, and a worldwide audience, I just can't see them saying that travelers from outer space would automatically pick the U.S. as the place to land. And the people who are arguing (yes, arguing) on the SciFi forum that they landed on Ellis Island since it's symbolic (get it? they're immigrants! :p) I think is insulting.

I want it to be Kendra!

Hmmm, maybe it could be Kendra. Yes, they nuked the ship with her on it, but could her consciousness have been downloaded? I mean, we don't know that the final five can't be reborn somehow. If they really had been to earth before, that would have been, well, a long time ago.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on June 17th, 2008 09:05 am (UTC)
Re: I hate comment limits...
And would we really want to see New New Caprica? ;)
Well... I guess not. But it does raise questions about how they can actually ever end the story. If they don't ever find a stable home, it's kind of a problem. Still I think it's most likely they'll journey on beyond Earth from what we've seen of it so far.

And the people who are arguing (yes, arguing) on the SciFi forum that they landed on Ellis Island since it's symbolic (get it? they're immigrants! :p) I think is insulting.
Wow. I can't tell you how unimpressed I am by that. I just... if that really turned out to be the case it could be the final straw with me and this show this year. I already feel like it's lost a lot of its realism, putting concepts and shock moments before characterisation ... I couldn't really ever give up watching, but It'd definitely add to my disaffection.

Yes, they nuked the ship with her on it, but could her consciousness have been downloaded? I mean, we don't know that the final five can't be reborn somehow. If they really had been to earth before, that would have been, well, a long time ago.
Yup. I think nearly anything's possible now that they've had Kara be reborn. And they've definitely still left a lot of mystery about the true nature of the final five. I mean the final Cylon could even turn out to be Head!Six ... that would be really funny! :D Gaius could be all 'she's in my head! No REALLY!' ;) Ok, maybe not...
dianora: bsg lee kara he believes herdianora2 on June 14th, 2008 04:26 pm (UTC)
I mostly agree with you on all this (SHOCK), except for a couple things:

I was actually really disappointed with the Lee/Kara interaction. I mean, I was happy that they spoke AT ALL, and I loved the "Mr. Prez" line and Kara saying the two of them would walk the halls of the temple together, but beyond that, they felt so emotionally distant to me. And I don't know if I was just projecting because I was disappointed that we weren't getting more, or what. But their relationship left me feeling really unsettled for some reason.

Side note: Galen really creeped me out with his little nod to Tigh. What the hell was that?

That was actually one of my favorite littl moments in the episode. I think it was just an acknowledgment between the two men that they've known since the moment they found out they were Cylons that there was a good chance THIS moment was coming -- they've made references before to being airlocked, etc., and I think this had an air of inevitability to it, for them, and the nod was just Galen's nod of respect and camraderie and "I'm okay that you suggested this and turned us in, we both know that you're doing the right thing." That's my take on it, anyway.

D'Anna was among the most animatedly, obviously upset, which I thought was interesting.

I think that had more to do with Lucy Lawless' overacting than anything else. ;)

Totally on board with you on everything else, especially all the missed emotional beats. I wish this had been a two-parter and they'd jettisoned one of the earlier boring episodes. Oh well.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on June 15th, 2008 12:04 am (UTC)
beyond that, they felt so emotionally distant to me. And I don't know if I was just projecting because I was disappointed that we weren't getting more, or what. But their relationship left me feeling really unsettled for some reason.
Hmm, I definitely think I benefitted from having become so incredibly jaded that I thought they would never speak again EVER. Anything felt good. And I liked that it wasn't just this one scene.... they were working together. Lee was all 'Kara and I have a recon plan...' I got the sense that the tw of them were talking all the time. Of course, if that's the case it raises the question of how they dealt with the fact that the last time they saw each other before Kara went away, they were all kissy and smoochy, and there doesn't seem to be any of that at all now. But I'm guessing that's because Kara doesn't want it. Lee basically told her he was there if she wants him in their farewell scene, so it's up to her... and clearly she's still working things through with Sam. Selfishly I wish that wasn't so but it does make some character sense to me and it's more than I've had for most of this season so I am trying to cling to the happy.

think it was just an acknowledgment between the two men that they've known since the moment they found out they were Cylons that there was a good chance THIS moment was coming
Oh I like your reading a lot! :) That makes me feel better about it.

I think that had more to do with Lucy Lawless' overacting than anything else. ;)
*rotfl* OK, paid!

. I wish this had been a two-parter and they'd jettisoned one of the earlier boring episodes. Oh well.
Yuh.
meretrix: bsg - does this make me a shipper?laisserais on June 14th, 2008 05:07 pm (UTC)
It felt like they raced through the material in this episode: it could comfortably have been a two-parter. Yes! this was exactly what I thought. And the fact that so much of the action-oriented plot was suddenly resolved (or seemingly so) has to mean that the issues that were glossed over, the entangled, emotional relations, will have to be addressed in the second half, and what's more: those issues are what will be the crux for the ulimate resolution.

At first I was bummed by how quick everything flew by - we didn't see Kara dealing with Anders' revelation, or anyone's fallout, really, except for Adama's (which. omg! Adama crying and Lee comforting him on the floor! *wibble* it totally tore my heart out).

And then there's Tigh, standing up and doing what's right. He's so gloriously human that's it's brilliant they chose him to be one of the final five. And his love for Bill is only matched by its reciprocation. Time and again, I was amazed at what Adama let slide with Tigh, and here is the payoff in spades. He looked SO scared in the airlock, but so brave. He did good.

Did you notice that when Sam and Galen were arrested, Galen smirked? He did! He smirked at Sam. What does that mean? I'm a little scared to know, but i hope it doesn't mean anything sinister. I hope it just means that he knew the time was coming when they couldn't hide anymore.

Of course with the pace this episode was blasting along at, she didn't have long to experience that trauma or work through it. Yeah, this is definitely one of the places where i wish it'd slowed down. And actually, Kara's entire relation to Leoben is off-putting for me. It feels like she just accepted his crazy, stalkery, murderous attentions, and never worked through what it was like to be his hostage. Or at any rate, she trusts him too much, still.

One on the chief things, for me, about the reveal of the four was the way we could possibly retcon Saul, and his age. Especially with knowing that Adama had been to the cylon lab in the first war. I thought it was interesting that Saul decided that he was another kind of cylon, one that could age.

I'm still all worked up about Tigh and Caprica Six's baby, though. Where is Caprica Six? Is she still a prisoner? And a cylon-cylon baby feels really important to me.

Plus, I'm wondering about how Deanna knew that one of the cylons was in the airlock - does she have some kind of tracking device? and if we'll ever learn about the final five's previous journey to Earth. Do they remember going there? and if so, when did they go? All fun questions that I hope they answer in the second half.

Yes, I'm too bowled over at the moment to assimilate all of this into "meaning," either, but clearly, the second half-season is going to hold a lot of answers in the things this episode skipped over, you know? yay!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on June 15th, 2008 12:32 am (UTC)
the fact that so much of the action-oriented plot was suddenly resolved (or seemingly so) has to mean that the issues that were glossed over, the entangled, emotional relations, will have to be addressed in the second half, and what's more: those issues are what will be the crux for the ulimate resolution.
Yeah, I agree. As long as they actually are all dealt with, I'll be happy. But I think a few things will remain glossed over--for instance Lee's internal psychology.

At first I was bummed by how quick everything flew by - we didn't see Kara dealing with Anders' revelation, or anyone's fallout, really, except for Adama's
This is so true. And while I see that Adama's fallout was very important, I think this is the crux of why I would match rather have cut some of the boring eps from earlier in the season and had more of this episode. Kara's reaction to Anders's reveal deserved more screentime after all the build-up.

(which. omg! Adama crying and Lee comforting him on the floor! *wibble* it totally tore my heart out).
I know! Lee is such a good son. When he kissed his dad's forehead and strode off to deal with Tigh...

Time and again, I was amazed at what Adama let slide with Tigh, and here is the payoff in spades. He looked SO scared in the airlock, but so brave. He did good.
Yeah, I've been amazed (and frustrated) by that too. But I agree that this was payoff in the Adama-Tigh friendship, definitely! I loved those shots of Tigh in the airlock.

Did you notice that when Sam and Galen were arrested, Galen smirked? He did!
He did and it was WEIRD. I think you're pretty safe in your reading, though. Above dianora2 has a great reading of his little nod to Tigh. And I think Galen was really irritated by Sam's naivety earlier on when he said 'maybe she won't be able to identify us'. Overall I'd say the evidence is there that Galen was far more accepting of the fact that their time had come. I kind of love how he acted irritated with Sam through the whole ep. even when he said 'go on' to him about Kara, it played as if he was bemused that Sam would even hesitate at this point in time.

actually, Kara's entire relation to Leoben is off-putting for me. It feels like she just accepted his crazy, stalkery, murderous attentions, and never worked through what it was like to be his hostage. Or at any rate, she trusts him too much, still.
Definitely. I'm already thinking I will make a post about the issues that are unresolved for me post-4.0 and this one would be top of the list. I feel like her relationship with him has been whitewashed by the fact that he helped her find Earth. And that's SO inappropriate. It doesn't justify the fact that he held her captive for so long. This end does not justify his appalling means. And I feel Helo was right in suggesting way back when that Kara see a psych. She needs to work through it and while I buy that her death and resurrection have provided her with a more centred inner space, it's clear that she's still very vulnerable where Leoben is concerned. I worry for her.

I thought it was interesting that Saul decided that he was another kind of cylon, one that could age.
So did I. I wish we'd known that's what he'd decided earlier. I wish all this had fallen out earlier... but still it was good when it came.

I'm still all worked up about Tigh and Caprica Six's baby, though. Where is Caprica Six? Is she still a prisoner? And a cylon-cylon baby feels really important to me.
It IS really important. Or it should be. But wasn't that her on Earth at the end going up to Tigh? It seemed like they had freed her.

I'm wondering about how Deanna knew that one of the cylons was in the airlock - does she have some kind of tracking device? and if we'll ever learn about the final five's previous journey to Earth. Do they remember going there? and if so, when did they go? All fun questions that I hope they answer in the second half.
Mmm, yes I have lots of questions too. Also, why did the Centurions obey D'Anna and not Leoben at the start? They've barely had five minutes with D'Anna!
Mayhem Parvaraincitygirl on June 19th, 2008 01:40 pm (UTC)
Also, why did the Centurions obey D'Anna and not Leoben at the start? They've barely had five minutes with D'Anna!

Maybe because D'Anna was giving them orders they actually WANTED to follow.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on June 21st, 2008 04:38 am (UTC)
I wish we knew what the Centurions' motives were. If they wanted to obey D'Anna that implies they are pretty anti-human/Cylon-alliance. That could bode ill, yet I don't get the sense the show's actually thought that through at all.
daybreak777: forehead to foreheaddaybreak777 on June 14th, 2008 11:56 pm (UTC)
Ah, Boppy, I am glad to see that you were happy with this episode. I wasn’t quite as squeey but I’ll save that for my journal. I want to tell you the things about the ep that did make me happy. Namely, LEE!

Now, you know I’ve been a little bit in love with Lee for going on eight months now. It started with Razor and seeing him come into his own on the Pegasus as leader. In Revelations, for the first time, Lee was alone, really alone and he stepped up to the challenge. I loved it. This was always the Lee I could love. Finally. :-) I am so glad you’ve been around to explain him to me. It made watching his development this episode all the more enjoyable.

Against all expectation, I actually did feel some sympathy for Bill. . . . But ohhh, heartbreak on the 'I'll take care of it!' line.
This makes me smile. Yay! And Bop, Lee kissed his father’s forehead! I am powerless against Lee and forehead-kissing. He could kiss Jake the dog’s forehead and I’d melt. Absolutely powerless. It was so sad and so Lee. But I was glad to see Lee become caretaker. First, because it shows he can. Second, I was glad to see Bill let him in. I know that losing Zak broke Bill. He didn’t let Lee in on that grief. Nor when they lost Kara. But this time, this time he just gives up and lets go in front of someone, his son. I actually liked to see that in Bill too. I think Lee and Bill both tend to keep emotions pinned up and it was good for Lee to see Bill lose it. Grief doesn’t mean you’re weak.

She's basically just found out that she's been reliving her experience with Leoben without even knowing it.
Cripes! You’re right. I thought of this when she went off it the raptor with Sam, Leoben and Sharon. All Cylons and she didn’t even know. That has gotta make you question some things about yourself. I sure wish we would have had more of Kara reacting, though too.

I totally LOL'd when Bill said they had to 'roll a hard six' (what the frak does that MEAN?! I still don't know!
I’m not a gambler, but isn’t it about rolling dice? Dice have six sides and sometimes in life, you just let it roll . . .

I guess that’s it for me now. Still thinking. It is sure good to see you happy with the show and yes, this definitely counts as meta. I still don’t quite know what ‘meta’ really means but I often let it be defined by the commenters. So as a commenter I say this is good meta!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee concentratingbop_radar on June 15th, 2008 03:06 am (UTC)
you know I’ve been a little bit in love with Lee for going on eight months now. It started with Razor
It's so interesting how this happened. Because I've been in love with Kara since Razor too! I am so much gentler on her when I go back and watch earlier seasons now. I feel like I was let into her character in a way I never had before and I love her so much more. But unlike Lee, her destiny journey hasn't been successful. She has the hero's quest journey and it's not been fulfilled properly. :(

In Revelations, for the first time, Lee was alone, really alone and he stepped up to the challenge. I loved it.
He did step up to the challenge, yes. *proud* It's interesting that this brings out the love in you. For me, it just brings the zen, if that makes sense. I mean, sure I was fangirling him, but internally I've felt more love for him when he's been broken and failing... because he needed it more then. When he's successful I just get a happy content feeling of 'ahhh, yes, this is the Lee I know'. :)

! I am powerless against Lee and forehead-kissing. He could kiss Jake the dog’s forehead and I’d melt.
HAHAHA, you are too funny! And I TOTALLY WANT TO SEE THAT. Lee-Jake would make me melt, for sure! 'It's ok, Jake! I'll deal with it!' *giggle*

I think Lee and Bill both tend to keep emotions pinned up and it was good for Lee to see Bill lose it. Grief doesn’t mean you’re weak.
Mmmm, it's really interesting reversal because early on it was Lee who was always way more demonstratively emo and Bill who was gruff and disapproving of that. I agree that this is something they both needed: Lee needed to know that Bill could break and that he was more than just the scary figure in the study, and Bill needed to know that Lee could be the strong one.

I thought of this when she went off it the raptor with Sam, Leoben and Sharon. All Cylons and she didn’t even know. That has gotta make you question some things about yourself. I sure wish we would have had more of Kara reacting, though too.
Yeah, it's such a mindfrak for her to find out that she was with all those Cylons... and I agree that not getting to see her react was one of the major disappointments in this episode. Probably THE major one for me. I get the feeling it just won't be addressed at all now because 'the Cylons are our friends'. The Uniting. Sigh. I still have issues with it...

I’m not a gambler, but isn’t it about rolling dice? Dice have six sides and sometimes in life, you just let it roll . . .
Hahaha, yeah I guess. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a saying because you don't know which way the dice will land, and also what the hell is hard about rolling it?! Oh well. I think Lee is still WTF about that saying too, so that pleases me. :D

So as a commenter I say this is good meta!
Hahaha, you are sweet! I already have more brewing, but... first vidding.
daybreak777: I'll take care of itdaybreak777 on June 18th, 2008 05:09 am (UTC)
I had to wait to reply until I got this icon. I love it!

internally I've felt more love for him when he's been broken and failing ...
Aww, poor Lee. But not me. I love him more when he pulls it together. To see he can get past his disappointments and be stronger for them. Kinda like Adama buttoning up that uniform. Something about that got to me. Still broken but trying his best for them. Those two! *sniffs*

Lee needed to know that Bill could break and that he was more than just the scary figure in the study, and Bill needed to know that Lee could be the strong one.
Exactly! I actually think they can move on together from this point. No reset. Yeah, they may fall back, they are family. Once seen it can't be unseen. Lee knows his father can hurt and grieve. He can finally forgive him for Zak. And Lee earned his father and Laura's respect. Finally. Now they Laura and Bill will probably both die or something. :-)

The Uniting. Sigh. I still have issues with it...
I don't have as many issues with this version of it. Maybe because D'Anna had so many issues herself, she sort of was suspicious in my place. And then her face on the planet. That's the worse, to reluctantly agree to something and have it blow up in your face. So through D'Anna I wasn't so annoyed with the Uniting. It was super-quick and based on little in my opinion, but as one of my reading list peeps said, at that point what could they do?

I think Lee is still WTF about that saying too, so that pleases me. :D
Really? I always took it to mean, "Sometimes you have to take a chance." A big chance. The point is, you don't know where the dice will land. You roll anyway. That's Adama and Kara. "That's what trust is." Lee has finally gotten there too. Taking the big chances. Sometimes going on instinct alone, like with Kara. But I guess he was WTF in the beginning. (Besides in BSG world dice should have 8 sides but why quibble?)

but... first vidding
Yes, go vid! Don't mind this comment!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on June 18th, 2008 09:52 am (UTC)
t was super-quick and based on little in my opinion, but as one of my reading list peeps said, at that point what could they do?
You're right. I too have LESS issues than previously. And D'Anna did help--I agree.

That's Adama and Kara. "That's what trust is." Lee has finally gotten there too.
I'm biting my tongue because I really feel Lee has been there for a very long time and it's Adama and Kara who sometimes aren't. But Lee's resolution and chance-taking is far quieter and less grandstand-y (usually) than Kara and Adama's so people don't see it so much. But whatever. They were all on the same page here, briefly!

I really want to vid but wow, I am SUPER wound up from work today...
an uncivil servant: helo yummyangela8675 on July 11th, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC)
Sorry for the random comment, but rolling a hard six is a term used in craps. You usually hear "hard six" or "hard eight." Rolling a hard six/eight is done when you rolled two dice and they come up as three/three or four/four. It's a specific, one-roll-at-a-time-only side bet on a craps table because rolling matching numbers is less probable and therefore more profitable (you can roll a one/five, two/four or three/three to get six, but the hard one is three/three because you only have one possible ways the dice can land, not four.) Same with eights (four/four vs. two/six, three/five.)

Hope that helps.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee concentratingbop_radar on July 12th, 2008 05:48 am (UTC)
Ahhhh, ok! I've always wondered--thanks for explaining it.
dianora: bsg lee billdianora2 on June 15th, 2008 03:38 am (UTC)
But this time, this time he just gives up and lets go in front of someone, his son.

Aww, I didn't really think of it that way, but it's so true and so lovely put like that. I LOVE THEM.

And I want to see Lee kissing Jake's forehead too, heeeee.
daybreak777: I'll take care of itdaybreak777 on June 18th, 2008 05:12 am (UTC)
I LOVE THEM.
ME TOO. Them ftw!

Now I just need an icon of Lee with Jake. I would just die of awww. :-)

Edited at 2008-06-18 05:13 am (UTC)
CapnZebbie: stalkerkittycapnzebbie on June 15th, 2008 01:52 am (UTC)
In that last scene I kept expecting to see the Statue of Liberty sticking up out of the sand. I wonder if anyone else had that image stuck in their head?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on June 15th, 2008 03:07 am (UTC)
Hmmm, maybe. Apparently people are saying it was NYC. I didn't get that. It's very interesting to see how people are responding to that scene.
dianora: bsg karadianora2 on June 15th, 2008 03:39 am (UTC)
I actually made a joke to my friend that they were going to see the Statue of Liberty stuck in the sand, seconds before they showed Earth. *g*
Allisonfrolicndetour on June 15th, 2008 09:26 am (UTC)
I was also completely unspoiled (I even thought I'd accidentally been spoiled for a couple things, but they turned out to be foilers!). It was such an experience! And yeah, I went back and watched the trailer afterwards, and not only did they give away Tigh confessing and Kara saving him just in time, they showed humans and Cylons standing together on Earth. In the promo.

I also loved the Kara/Lee interaction, and it just shows how easily they can resume their friendship even after a separation. "Mr. Pres" was so cute and familiar! And she was all excited about walking with him on Earth. (And Lee was the pessimist; kind of the reverse of Scar.) And I think her words at least did foreshadow Lee picking up for Adama in this ep. (My one complaint is that it didn't really seem like something Kara would say, but, eh. *handwave*)

The Dee/Gaeta friendship has been there in the background forever and I think they should get together and have tiny, gorgeous, efficient babies. :D

Ahhh! I didn't even take in the Laura/Ellen parallel, but I think that's spot on. Man, Adama/Tigh really IS the greatest love story of the series!

but I do also believe that Tigh knew there was some real risk to himself, and I believe he was willing to die if necessary.

It occurred to me that the moment he realized he could save the Fleet was the first time we've seen him smile since Ellen died. And he seemed more broken when Kara stopped the execution than before. Oh Tigh!

And his breakdown about so many people to die kind of just confused me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one; that didn't make sense except as a 'see kids, war is pointless' anvil and it took me partway of of the scene. Lee was excellent however. <3

I think they really were compelled to fixate on the Viper; even Tory felt it. :) I wanted to see more of Kara's reaction too! (Well, like you, I did and I didn't)

to me, I feel she'd be seriously VERY freaked out to know that Sam had been lying to her and sleeping with her all this time knowing he was a Cylon.

While I took from Bear McCreary's blog that the intent was to show Kara grappling with the realization that Sam was a Cylon and she didn't want him killed, I definitely think there was a sense of betrayal as well, especially since she doesn't know when he was activated. :/

In Tory's defense (... did I just say that?); her opinion of Lee has been filtered through Roslin's fear that politically, he can't make the hardest calls. It's part of the dichotomy of Lee that he won't suppress Baltar but he'll totally airlock Tigh. ;) Just another reason why that L/L scene at the end was so fabulous!

I think Galen has been suicidal since Cally died; remember how he was the only one who didn't bat an eyelash about D'Anna when they first learned of her? He was laughing when they got arrested. So I don't think the nod was sinister so much as letting Tigh know he didn't care. Which is charming and yet... poor Nick!

I don't think it's just your being a Lee fan; I've wanted more on his grappling with religion and Cylon issues since HTBiM! We need more of the process. It calls for fic. ;)

With you on laughing at the cult and Lee making a lovely gesture. I'm just going to stop my tape after their hug and that last shot of Earth when I rewatch over the hiatus. ;) Good call on 'something for everyone.'

I do hope the FF is someone dead, whom we'll see again, and female. If they were with the Fleet then they have to explain why they weren't activated and why D'Anna lied. Or, someone suggested to me that it might be someone waiting for the on Earth. (eeep!)

ETA: I did think that was the temple of Aurora. Kara got her wish to walk there with Lee and Laura got hers to see Adama pick up the first fist-full of dirt. Writers = Evil.

Edited at 2008-06-15 09:34 am (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Presidentbop_radar on June 15th, 2008 09:55 am (UTC)
not only did they give away Tigh confessing and Kara saving him just in time, they showed humans and Cylons standing together on Earth. In the promo.
Oh my frakking god! That is TERRIBLE. This is why promos are EVIL. I shun them. *happy spoilerphobe* It was sooo much better not knowing, wasn't it?! :)

And she was all excited about walking with him on Earth. (And Lee was the pessimist; kind of the reverse of Scar.)
Yeah, that was interesting. He's a contrarian again: he's so positive about humanity's potential and yet he doesn't really believe they'll find Earth. Perhaps the fact that he wasn't as invested in it (in a belief/faith sense) as Kara will mean he's going to be able to help them work through the grief of Earth being a deadend. Increasingly I'm thinking they won't stay here... they go somewhere else.

I think they should get together and have tiny, gorgeous, efficient babies. :D
They really really should and ever since Gaeta got his leg caught off I have wanted it even more! Dee did the whole bedside thing with Lee... Gaeta needs that!

Man, Adama/Tigh really IS the greatest love story of the series!
Hee! It really is! And I think it was their fight and the parallel he drew then between Adama loving Roslin and Tigh loving Caprica!Ellen that made me figure that's what was going on for Tigh.

It occurred to me that the moment he realized he could save the Fleet was the first time we've seen him smile since Ellen died.
WOW! What a cool insight. Yes... I loved the dignity with which he stood in the airlock. The proud old soldier... *sniffs*

that didn't make sense except as a 'see kids, war is pointless' anvil and it took me partway of of the scene.
Yeah... I think I am frustrated because I can see the potential in going down that path. It's a reversal of positions for Adama to be the nihilistic 'what is it all for anyway?' person and Lee to be the one telling him it IS worth fighting for. But I just don't think they scripted it well enough to pull it off to its full potential.

While I took from Bear McCreary's blog that the intent was to show Kara grappling with the realization that Sam was a Cylon and she didn't want him killed
Hahaha, that was supposed to be conveyed (only) musically?! You are KIDDING me. No, you're not... sigh. As much as I love Bear McCreary's music.. that was a HELL of a big plot point to leave to musical explanation. And you know my thoughts on having to refer to other sources for interpretation of scenes. ;)

Ok this is what I got, independent of that... Kara felt shocked and betrayed in the immediate moment of reveal and then didn't get a chance to work through that with Sam before he was taken away. In some ways I think that's good because she didn't get a chance to lash out at him, and I'm not sure that would have helped... she was left on her own with nowhere to turn but her own mind and that would have been spiralling into dark places so instead she focussed on the Viper. Outwardly that seems like a decision to trust Sam but actually I think it had more to do with the fact that it gave her something to hang on to... and then of course it proved him right and that gave her Hope. I'm torn because I'm glad she got Hope, but I'm kind of annoyed because the writers have a get out of jail free card about this issue now. They may choose not to take it, they may choose to show Kara still having trust issues to work through with Sam, but... I kind of think they'll take it. :/

her opinion of Lee has been filtered through Roslin's fear that politically, he can't make the hardest calls
Good call. But they're still wrong! Roslin has been blind to Lee all season, underestimating him... they don't understand that his decision not to suppress Gaius IS strength, just of a different form. But yes, Tory would have bought into this myth of Lee as irresolute.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on June 15th, 2008 09:56 am (UTC)

Which is charming and yet... poor Nick!
Yeah... I don't find it charming. I find it chilling. But dianora2 had a great reading of it above. I feel unsettled by Galen. On the one hand, I can understand him feeling this was inevitable, but if he felt that way then why not turn himself in? He's basically just letting himself be blown around rudderless on the seas of fate... I guess he really is THAT depressed. :(

We need more of the process. It calls for fic. ;)
Yup, it really does! As do the Kara/Anders issues. Exploration is required, fic writers! *uses megaphone*

I do hope the FF is someone dead, whom we'll see again, and female.
I want it to be Kendra! :D It won't be Kendra...

Kara got her wish to walk there with Lee and Laura got hers to see Adama pick up the first fist-full of dirt. Writers = Evil.
Haha, yes, I had that thought! This is SO their sick sense of humour at work. But I kind of love it. :D
patron saint of neglected female characters: chiefrose_griffes on June 16th, 2008 08:01 pm (UTC)
Side note: Galen really creeped me out with his little nod to Tigh. What the hell was that?

I see that others have already said stuff about it, but I'll throw in my opinion that it was like a salute. Tigh's the one who once said "That's the man I'll be" until he dies--and he was living up to that statement in that moment. So I viewed it as a tribute.

Everything else with Tyrol did give me the creeps in this episode, though. Like he's given up on everything.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee not a herobop_radar on June 17th, 2008 08:51 am (UTC)
Yeah, cool--it definitely helps to hear how others viewed his action. And yeah, he seemed REALLY nihilistic. :( Given how few lines of dialogue he had, I was impressed how clearly that was shown by Aaron Douglas.
(Anonymous) on June 17th, 2008 05:56 am (UTC)
Parents have to die comment
I think the comment about the children and the parents having to die is about Earth being the parents, and the remaining humans and Cylons being the children. Now that their parents (earth) are "dead" they can achieve their full potential.

Steve.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on June 17th, 2008 06:18 am (UTC)
Re: Parents have to die comment
Nice! I like it. Thanks for commenting.
Alexandra Leaving: BSG - Lee/Kara hugsalexandral on June 17th, 2008 04:01 pm (UTC)
Oh, my glee that they ACTUALLY TALKED. THANK GOD!

Hee! When this came up I remembered your words and thought "YAY!". :D

Third was seeing Gaeta back on duty! :D I'm so glad. And I squeed when Dee called him 'Felix' and I loved the way she lifted her chin when he said 'good to go'. I think those two would be really cute together, and I guess I'm just really glad that Gaeta has a friend to see him through this hard time. (In my personal canon she totally visited him in hospital.)

I am totally shipping these two and I hope we will see more of it.

Lee didn't really seem to react at all to finding out that Sam and Galen were Cylons. That felt odd to me. He's worked with Tyrol for so long!

I think Lee was in the full "President mode" here. He didn't have any time nor should have had any time for any personal reaction. Someone had to hold this all together and in a situation like this the emotional balance and the trust in the leader is very shaky. He will have time to react like a person, but at this moment he was the President and had to think the thoughts about everyone else. I thought he was awesome here. :D

And that the buzzer wasn't going to go off in the heads of the Final Five until D'Anna showed up? o.O

I am trying to think about this. The fifth cylon must have been with D'Anna too, to swith the sequence on. Is it some new version of cylon?? I am so curious!
canadiangirl_86 on June 18th, 2008 04:54 am (UTC)
Excellent write-up! I agree with you on practically every point here so I won't bother with a hugeass response, but I have to comment on a couple things!

It felt like they raced through the material in this episode: it could comfortably have been a two-parter. The rest of the season really dragged, and then in this ep they hit the fast forward button.

I'm with you on this. But for me the pace really became unrealistic starting with Kara and Lee's scene at her viper. We've discussed this already but it was such a critical point - not just in the episode but in the entire SERIES.

It feels like she's really found that calm centred space that we've seen flickers of ever since her return.

This is one thing about these two that gives me comfort this season. She seems so at peace when she's around him and it makes my shipper heart soar. I know we've hardly seen them at all this season but they truly are connecting on a whole new level now.

And I squeed when Dee called him 'Felix' and I loved the way she lifted her chin when he said 'good to go'.

The weird thing about Dee, I really do enjoy her when she's interacting with people OTHER THAN LEE. Particularly after seeing the extended UB.

And his breakdown about so many people to die kind of just confused me. I mean I think he's made mistakes sometimes but to generalise like that made no sense and I couldn't quite understand what emotional journey he was undergoing there.

With Bill's comment: "all those people I've sent to die...for what?" I personally interpreted it as him asking himself, what the hell has been the point of everything they've gone through if your best friend could be a Cylon? He just doesn't know who the enemy is anymore and it's understandably a frightening thought. What has he been fighting for? That's what I took it to mean, anyway.

Lee didn't really seem to react at all to finding out that Sam and Galen were Cylons. That felt odd to me.

I mentioned this in my review, but you really need to go back and look at the expression on Lee's face when Sam walks into the airlock. I thought the rage in it was beyond belief. Srsly. They didn't get a chance to explore it in this episode but I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of bad blood between Lee and Sam come 4.5. It's going to bring back everything that happened between them in season three and place it in a whole new light. That's my guess, anyway.

But thank goodness they built in time for a Laura-Lee scene. *grateful* It was short but beautiful and I actually really love that it wasn't played as conflict. They were both just so beautifully gracious to each other!

Oh, their scene was lovely and made my teary. And the way Jamie delivered that, "Thank you" was so...GUH! *huggles him*

Edited at 2008-06-18 04:56 am (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee no creditbop_radar on June 19th, 2008 12:34 pm (UTC)
She seems so at peace when she's around him and it makes my shipper heart soar. I know we've hardly seen them at all this season but they truly are connecting on a whole new level now.
I think so too. I want to hang on to that.

what the hell has been the point of everything they've gone through if your best friend could be a Cylon? He just doesn't know who the enemy is anymore and it's understandably a frightening thought.
Yup, that makes sense. Maybe it was just another place where I felt they needed a beat or two more to truly deliver the scene fully.

It's going to bring back everything that happened between them in season three and place it in a whole new light. That's my guess, anyway.
Ohhh, I would love that if that was so! :) I would like to think that there will be these ramifications for this, that it won't be as simple as 'oh well we know it wasn't your fault you were a Cylon'.

the way Jamie delivered that, "Thank you" was so...GUH! *huggles him*
YES! It makes my heart all splodey, the way he said that! ALmost my favourite moment in the whole ep!
Nora Norwich: Kara seriousnorwich36 on November 25th, 2008 01:21 am (UTC)
I think I'm the last person on earth to see this episode! The last few times I checked hulu it hadn't been posted, and suddenly today it was there, so I stayed late at work to watch.

And amazingly, I was unspoiled after all this time, so it really packed a punch. I have to admit, though, I was expecting the devastation on earth (is it all radioactive? That sure looked like a geiger counter early in that scene) just because the jubilation of finding earth was done at such length--I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I really liked your review. I agree with you that the episode seemed like it had too much packed into it, and should have probably been a two-parter.

I really enjoyed Tigh in this episode--probably because he got his shit together. :) I'm very glad they chose him as the one to threaten airlock to, because if it had been either of the other two I would have been bidding for them to get airlocked. But as it was, I was invested in Tigh staying alive, because he was the only one with the guts to come forward. He acted out of love for Bill

Yeah. I loved how so much of the suspense in this episode was "Will character X do the right thing," and for me Tigh's choice was somehow the most compelling, if only because he had been taking the coward's way out for so long. I really loved seeing him man up and actually tell Bill. And wow, Bill's denial and shock and devastation afterward says more about their friendship than anything previously on the show, I thought. (It almost made up, for me, that we didn't get enough of Kara reacting to Sam's betrayal. Though not quite)

Like you, I love seeing Lee all presidential and making the tough decisions--and having both his dad and Roslin acknowledge the fact that he was in charge and did make good decisions.

Wow. I'm not really sure where the show is going to go from here, now. I mean, I guess there's still the final Cylon reveal, but they're on earth. Now what? (When does the new season start? Is it this spring, I hope?)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on November 26th, 2008 12:17 am (UTC)
have to admit, though, I was expecting the devastation on earth (is it all radioactive? That sure looked like a geiger counter early in that scene) just because the jubilation of finding earth was done at such length--I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Yeah, for sure!

Tigh's choice was somehow the most compelling, if only because he had been taking the coward's way out for so long
Tigh was awesome--a real highlight in this episode, and has remained so in my memory long after the dust from the ep settled. A lot of the rest of the episode (or its consequences) did not settle well with me at all. But individual performances like Tigh's were great.

I mean, I guess there's still the final Cylon reveal, but they're on earth. Now what? (When does the new season start? Is it this spring, I hope?)
January, I think! Which seems relatively soon. And yeah, I have no idea... I'm mostly unspoiled apart from one clip from the promo. My theory is they'll have to go somewhere else--and that this is not meant to be their final destination. I think they'll explore the fallout from the Cylon alliance a bit more too (at least let's hope!) and I kind of cynically expect lots of drawn out overplayed character death but as to the final outcome, I don't know. I just hope they manage to pace the final half of the season better than they paced the first half.
Nora Norwich: Kara seriousnorwich36 on November 26th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
Oh, I didn't realize there was a trailer out yet. *Goes to watch*

Hmm. I hate to say it, but now I kind of want to be spoiled. I think. I don't know, BSG makes me a lot more tense than the other shows I watch, possibly because it is much more likely--especially since this is the final season--to actually kill off characters I care about, and I almost want to know about it before it happens, just to brace myself.

January, huh? That's...pretty close, actually, considering how the holidays eat up time.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on November 26th, 2008 10:20 am (UTC)
I haven't seen the promo but got spoiled for a shot from it. I am not sure whether to watch it or not. I am very, very nervous. Tense is right! Like you, I'm debating whether it would be better to know now so I can brace myself for the worst. But I've been indecisive for months and spoilerphobia is hard to break.
Nora Norwichnorwich36 on November 27th, 2008 01:05 am (UTC)
Well, to be honest, it seemed to me like 2/3 of the material in the promo was from the season finale, so I don't know how spoiled you'd get watching it. Maybe if I slowed it to a crawl and watched carefully I might learn something substantive, but I can't say I did from watching it at regular speed.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: The Fallbop_radar on November 27th, 2008 02:51 am (UTC)
HA! That cracks me up. In that case it was SERIOUSLY overhyped on my f'list! ;-) And judging by the cut-tags, they've been raking through it for clues!