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09 January 2009 @ 03:39 pm
I'm one of 'those' fans.  
This is the post I've been meaning to make for a really long time. It's confession time. I have had it with Battlestar. I will be watching the rest of Season 4 because I'm a completionist and part of me needs to know just how fully and completely they massacre the show I once loved. But I may not be the chirpiest little fangirl on your f'list this season, so if you're here for squee, you might want to skip my posts.

I still love the fans though! The thing I was most sad about in losing the show, ultimately, was how cut off it made me feel from the other fans. So I'm vowing not to let it. I'm still here, and if you are squeeing your little hearts out I'll be smiling from a distance and maybe commenting occasionally when I can agree/join in. (Let's hope there are at least a FEW instances of that in the remainder of the season!)

But I need to get this off my chest first. This post is for me, and is not directed at anyone in particular. I'm not really asking for debate here (which is unusual for me and indicates a complete disengagement with the material)--this is just how I feel.


I hated the first half of Season 4, thought it was a nonsensical trainwreck, and can't see it getting any better, particularly given the inflated ego of its creator.

Going back further, I do feel like BSG has been losing momentum for a long time. The first season and a half were near-perfect television. The second half of season 2 was a bit of a jumble, but I could roll with most of it. Season 3 was also jumbly--I honestly believe it had some really interesting material, but it became much more obvious by then that the writers were not good at keeping character threads running from episode to episode. There was also a lot of melodrama. I didn't think about it too consciously at the time, but I definitely felt the shift away from a gritty realism-based character-driven show to one a bit more in love with its ideas and 'shocking' impact and sloppy in its execution.

I could roll with that. I never expected the show to be perfect forever and hey, I still got to see the characters I loved every week! Looking back, I realise that in season 3 I also had the security of it not being the end of the story. IMO, the middle of stories is often weak--whether in film or TV or even books. It's often the place where the creator wallows, indulges themself or otherwise procrastinates about reaching the anticipated conclusion. But I had faith that it would 'come good' because the creators were so conscious of wanting to end the show on their own terms. (Kudos!)

Season 4 was a tragic disappointment. I went in with so much excitement, sure that this was where we'd get all the answers, all the resolutions--and each week I wound up with more questions (often gaping plothole nitpicks now) and more confusion about where the show was actually headed. I'm ashamed to say it but I feel like I faked how much I was enjoying it each week because I couldn't face the sorrow I felt at seeing my beloved show turn to nonsense.

Briefly, these were my issues:
- Kara came back from the dead. They needed to give us an explanation. Also I was not comfortable with her reconciliation with her mother in Maelstrom but we don't even know if that really happened, let alone what Kara is. Recently, hearing that Katee herself flipped out about having no idea what her character's motivation was any more was yet another nail in the coffin for me with this show. RDM evidently dismissed her concerns as all part of his glorious masterpiece. Um, dude, if your lead actress is telling you she has no idea who her character is maybe the audience will notice too! We did. By mid-season I felt like Kara was not a character any more so much as a puppet for the writers to push the plot development they wanted.
- Lee followed suit swiftly after. What should have been a fabulous highlight in a Lee-fan's journey--Lee gaining the presidency--was so badly executed (head!cats and that stupid whiteboard?!) that it was very hard to enjoy it. I coped in usual fashion by taking it out on Adama, but really the old man's not to blame: the writers are. After that, they gave Lee some poncy and improbable speeches (the Cylon Alliance one the worst) and expected us to roll with it. I tried. And failed.
- Gratuitous cruelty! Gaeta lost a leg for no reason. They better give us a reason in 4.5, I'm telling you--though I am somewhat encouraged that the webisodes are about him--perhaps he'll prove important (Final Cylon?).
- Too much time wasted on plots that went nowhere. Exactly how many meetings of the Four did we have to see?! We GET IT ALREADY! There are Cylons in the Fleet! That we have known for ages! (Well actually two of them are 'pasted on, yay!' but let's handwave that... *eyeroll*) I expected to see far more exploration of what it meant for the other fleet members to find out that these people they knew so well were Cylons. Instead, the reveals were rushed in the season cliffhanger with barely time to react at all. I guess they're saving some fallout for season 4.5, but to my mind that is far too late. There are too many other things that need resolved.
- Too much Baltar!sex. Again with the wasted screentime! His cult better be really frakking important in the final outcome because we sure had to see a lot of it. *yawns*
- Stupid mystical destiny shit. I'm actually quite fond of destiny. I love a good Destiny Versus Freewill arm wrestle! But in this case, BSG decided that Freewill had vacated the premises and we should all bow down at the altar of Destiny (otherwise known as the writers' room). Worst moment of the season? Lee telling Kara her 'everything is connected' idea was 'a bit of a stretch' (YUH HUH UNDERSTATEMENT).
- The ball being completely dropped on the Kara/Lee relationship. I was stunned. I was not one of those people who thought the brig scene was a farewell or ending: in fact I now think the main reason I wasn't was because I was among the unspoiled and hadn't read the interviews with actors. To me it was very obviously setting up expectations of a continued relationship. It was saying 'this is here, when you are ready'--but it came to nothing.
- Booooring Adama/Roslin reading scenes and Adama being an idiot (hanging around in space to find her). And ok, I've seen a little bit of the webisodes and can I say how much it annoys me that now any time two characters are separated they have this crazy idea that they'll be able to MAGICALLY FIND EACH OTHER, OMG! Who the hell put that idea into their heads? Adama. And RDM. What happened to realism?
- The doubly annoying thing about the reliance on all this nonsensical romantic destiny bizzo is that it is applied with a double standard. Do you think if Kara was missing and Lee said he could 'magically find her' he actually would? No. Because a) theirs is a tragic love and we must retain the tragedy above all else (apparently) and b) he's a character who is always, brutally, made to face the consequences of his actions. But certain other characters, *cough*, don't get so much as a slap on the wrist for things like shooting an officer in the leg. Oh, and they heal miraculously too! (But the dude they shoot doesn't, oh no...)
All of this has built a world for me where I feel like the writers can and will do whatever the hell they want with no respect for the universe's rules. (Are there even any anymore?) That makes it very hard for me to respect the vision they craft or get anything meaningful out of it.

Then there's all the things Season 4.0 did not address:
- who made the Cylons and how did they evolve?
- how are the Final Five different from the other Cylons? what form do they actually take?
- how come they can breed? and/or how can two Cylons have a child? what happened to the necessity for love for conception? (Because you cannot convince me that Tigh and Caprica share omg!truelove.).
- why are the humans still desperate to find Earth even though they know the Cylons know where it is? Wasn't the point that it was a haven from the Cylons? o.O (Seriously, CANNOT get past the fact that not ONE SINGLE human character raised that as an issue.)

I also think the show did a sloppy job of showing why humans suddenly think teaming up with the Cylons is a good idea. New Caprica is so fresh in their memories, it is very hard to see what's really different about them settling on Earth together (if they had been able to). A few things had changed (factions within the Cylons, and losing the ability to regenerate) but those were not actually given on the show as reasons... it played more as if those were incidental occurrences (um, no, they're fundamental shifts in what it means to be a Cylon! think about that humans--reflect on it!). Far more time was spent on Tory and the Chief having boring existential crises. I'm telling you, Tory and the Chief (both of whom I dislike) better prove to be really important characters in the endgame or I'll feel even more cheated of that time!

Out of all the things that the first half of the season failed to address, the least interesting of all to me is who the Final Cylon is. You know what? I couldn't give a frak. If it's someone we don't know at all, then why would I care? And if it's someone we do know then it's not going to be a shock because we've all had lots of time to think of all the possibilities. The only thing that would surprise and delight me is if it were Kendra. (It won't be.) Yet that is all the show producers seem to think we care about. I went to that 'clues' site. It was so boring! I don't caaaaaaaaaare, people! Give me some real gritty facts about the Cylons and what makes them tick, how they evolved, how culpable humanity is for their existence and how tested their capacity for change is. Don't give me this 'who's the final cylon? da da... DUM!' bullshit. If they're not the 'enemy' any more, WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER?!!!!!

Sorry, it annoys me so much. As you can see. *giggle* Believe me, I do laugh at myself. It is only because I loved the show so much and thought it was so good that I'm so angry. And right around the time that it started getting more and more critical recognition, I feel it lost the plot. Nowadays it seems like no matter how bad the episode is, people will still be marvelling at it because of BSG's reputation--and not judging it on its true merits. That makes me sad.

So, we come to Season 4.5. What could possibly make this trainwreck better? Well, there are a few things I could think of. Again, warning for brutal and unpopular opinions:
1. Roslin needs to die--pronto! I was kind to her and didn't list the long-winded dying above in the list of things that took up way too much time in season 4.0 but it did. She's been dying for so long now I've ceased to really care. I will expect any future possibly dying to be yet another fakeout. Actually I fear she'll still be alive in the finale. Don't get me wrong: I think Roslin is one of the most interesting characters on the show, but if you're going to have her die, then have her die. Have the courage of your convictions! She's already been saved once, improbably, by magical baby blood (whee! the beginning of the decline?) ... having her saved again just makes the show producers look pathetic.
2. We need to find out more about the Cylons' history, how they were built and evolved, and the humans need to find something out that will make them reflect on their own culpability in creating the Cylons. That, to me, is the one thing that could make it even vaguely plausible that the humans settle down and intermarry with the beings that committed genocide. It's always going to be a stretch, but if it their history was explored really well--and the remaining Cylons expressed true and utter remorse--then it might work. I doubt it will be explored at all.
3. We need to discover what Head!Six's agenda is, what she is, and this needs to be part of the significant endgame. The Gaius-Head!Six relationship has been such an intriguing part of the show from the pilot on--we need delivery on this! Instead I get the feeling the writers are taking Gaius in a new unplanned-originally direction.
4. The unrelenting bleakness needs to end. Yes, I respect that the ending of this show may very well be that of a classic 'tragedy'. Everyone may die. But dear god, give us some light before the end! Just some flashes of humanity, of compassion and of real love. I honestly believe the writers have forgotten or never knew what that was. Their definition of love appears to be: 'I hurt/abuse you because I love you. It's for your own good.'
5. The endgame needs to be more interesting then humans converting to the Cylon religion and breeding with each other--because that idea is both simplistic and nauseating. I could buy that some humans would do so, but if it's truly a case of all the humans having their moment of realisation that the Cylons only hurt them because they love them so much, then I will seriously LOSE MY SHIT.
6. Kara needs to choose Lee and divorce Anders. While Anders is still alive. I've had it with the writers wanting to keep all ships possible/alive/open. I'm sure that what will actually happen is that Anders will die a martyr's death, and Kara will feel so belatedly guilty that she vows to cherish his memory forever. Lee can't compete with a dead guy. We know that. He shouldn't have to. Kara needs to man up and actually make a decision and make it clear to both men who she chooses. Hahahahaa, yeah that won't happen. *eyeroll* Don't expect me to be happy about any tokenistic Kara/Lee moments they throw us after Anders's death or in the finale--they'll be meaningless to me if Lee is once again Kara's second choice to a dead guy.
7. The characterisation needs to level up. Character actions need to have something more behind them then 'we need XX to do this because the plot is ZYX'.
8. Stop with the killing of third-tier characters we don't care about! Either do something really brave like killing a main cast member (ACTUALLY killing them--not Kara's unexplained returned from death state) or don't bother with the forced melodrama.
9. The evillest Cylons need to lose and die. I will still be a bit uncomfortable with the idea that the other Cylons get off scot free--I don't really feel like the show has convincingly shown that there is that much difference between the models--but I can roll with it in a pinch. However the Cavills and Dorals need to die. At least give the humans that much!
10. Give the Destiny plot some interest by reintroducing doubt/ambiguity... what happened to the days when we couldn't tell if Gaius was genuinely guided by God or had simply fluked his way through life by being a lucky opportunist? Give us some of that free will back! And stop using destiny as a way to excuse all the plot holes or not bother explaining things.
11. If there is a single deity entity controlling all this, let it be Head!Cat. :D Because seriously, that idea thrown out so casually by Kara, struck fear into my soul! Are they all going to have an audience with God at the end of this? I feel like RDM's Catholicism is showing... eeek.
12. Please, please don't make Leoben do anything disturbing to Kara. She's suffered enough. In fact please keep him far, far away from her.
Notice what isn't on the list? Yup, that's right, I'm no longer worried about Lee dying. Right now, dying might be better than having his character integrity destroyed any further. Yeah, I'll be very pissed off if it happens, but I don't get the feeling it will until the finale. And then everyone else might be dead too. So it's not high on my list of worries.

I could go on, but I figure no-one's read even this far. ;) That's ok. I feel better for getting it out there.

I'd like to thank siljamus and rap541 for making me feel less alone and less like a crazy person when I was in my biggest BSG despair phase--each in very different but special ways. I actually feel more zen about 4.5 because my expectations are low. I have no idea how much I will or won't feel like posting about the show yet--but I'll honestly be really happy for all of you if you enjoy it, even if I don't feel the same joy. I'd like to think that the show will deliver for at least some fans.

Now I really should get round to watching the rest of the webisodes, shouldn't I?
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: cynicalcynical
 
 
 
Amalthiaamothea on January 9th, 2009 06:52 am (UTC)
I'm not watching the webisodes.

I was disappointed by halfway through season 3 that the plots weren't nearly as good as the first season and a half.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on January 9th, 2009 07:20 am (UTC)
Yeah, it really took an abrupt dive in quality. I tried to give it the benefit of doubt about it's capacity to come back from that for a long time, but I think that time has now passed.
Lacy: heart string by flatlinedlacylaces on January 9th, 2009 07:14 am (UTC)
I have lost touch with BSG as well. My frustration has even prevented me from reading fan fiction. During Season 3 I think my frustration reached it's peak.

I also don't get why we had to see so much of Gaius' sex life and his cult, and the President's assistant and her existential crisis. That's totally time that could have been spent exploring the Cylon's history, evolution, and back story, as well as answering the billions of unanswered questions and unresolved plot points.

I will definitely be watching though because I need closure, even if it will only lead to more frustration. But once it's over I can let go of the show and move on and hold on to my love of when the show was amazing. And if we don't get it, I can pretend that Lee and Kara did get their happy ending with Kara choosing Lee and growing up, finally.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee awesome sexybop_radar on January 9th, 2009 07:19 am (UTC)
It's good to hear I'm not the only one frustrated. Like you, I need closure. I think I'll mourn two things--the dive in quality in the show and also the death of Kara/Lee. And yes, like you, I've reconciled myself to writing my own ending (at least in my head!) if we don't get a Kara-chooses-Lee resolution.

Edited at 2009-01-09 07:23 am (UTC)
daybreak777: pilotsdaybreak777 on January 9th, 2009 07:57 am (UTC)
Hee! This made me giggle. I like when people are ranty. And you sound more matter-of-fact now, rather than totally ragey and annoyed. I would respond in depth (yes, I read all of it) except you and I have kinda been discussing this for six months. I can't disagree with you about Kara's characterization or Gaeta's leg. Just can't. So you know most of my feelings on most of these points.

I'm just glad you are around BSG at all. There was a time when you couldn't even read anything about it.

And you know my vision for Kara and Lee. Together forever and since maybe the show won't do them justice (but I hope they will), I wrote an ending for them myself.

Watch the webisodes! Not BSG's finest but I found them amusing entertaining. :-)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee separationbop_radar on January 9th, 2009 09:00 am (UTC)
Yeah, I'm pretty zen now, DB! :)

(Sorry about earlier--there was a whole in-law-in-hospital thing going on.)

The webisodes broke me when Hoshi claimed to have some magical sparkly way to find Gaeta by sheer willpower. That and the dumbest murder plot ever involving safety tape being removed from a screwdriver.. I mean really! What is this? 'Inspector Gaeta'?!?! But ok, I'll try again...
(no subject) - daybreak777 on January 9th, 2009 02:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daybreak777 on January 9th, 2009 10:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
elzedelzed on January 9th, 2009 08:35 am (UTC)
Eh, like you, there are several elements in season 4 that annoy me (and yes, the show's season 1 magic, well, as dimmed). Personally, the destiny stuff has always agravvated me - goes against my every rationalist principle - and the development of Kara's character in season 3 (not least with Leoben in her head, ack), well, sigh.

Havng said that- perhaps because I watched the first three seasons in one fell swoop over a few weeks; and season 4.0 is the first one I watched, as it were, in real time... well, I'm not quite as disappointed as you are. The unrelenting bleakness I think is absolutely inherent to the show; as for the love triangles - tiresome, absolutely, but at least they leave the fanfic writers creative space. Still, I could do with some form of Lee/Kara relationship this last season.

But, you know, I do feel your pain. On the other hand, mind you, the Adama/Roslin shippers have got what is surely a long overdue boost....

;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Presidentbop_radar on January 9th, 2009 08:55 am (UTC)
Yes, I think if I'd only caught up with it recently I would not be so disappointed. But I disagree that the unrelenting bleakness is inherent--while the show has always been very, very dark, in the first couple of seasons, there were moments of relief. Hell, there was comedy occasionally--and I believe that the audience needs those moments of catharsis and release. I'm not talking about it taking up more than 10 per cent of the time. But there's something very unsubtle about showing utter blackness and nothing else. That's doesn't pass as 'clever' in my eyes (though I think it does in RDM's).

Oh, if I was an Adama/Roslin fan I'd no doubt be a bit happier.
(no subject) - elzed on January 9th, 2009 09:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on January 9th, 2009 09:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
latteaddict: Truth hurts - K/L maelstromlatteaddict on January 9th, 2009 08:44 am (UTC)
6. Kara needs to choose Lee and divorce Anders. While Anders is still alive. I've had it with the writers wanting to keep all ships possible/alive/open.

You know I multi-ship but I actually need to see this scenario happen too. There's nothing more meaningless than a relationship being an afterthought or second choice or a result of inaction. If Sam dies (before Kara chooses) and becomes a martyr for Kara to carry a torch for, it definitely will diminish all subsequent Lee/Kara moments and any possible K/L ending. I also have the same requirement for Lee/Dee. From the brig kiss, it seems like Lee has definitely chosen Kara but in actuality, he chose Dee in TaB and reaffirmed that choice in Maelstrom and it's only because of random circumstance (Dee suddenly one day up and leaving him against his wishes) that he was free to kiss Kara in Six of One. Lee never had to make a choice. Dee removed herself so Lee was free to kiss girl #2. There's a possibility of Dee being killed off in 4.5 and I have the same fear as you (re Sam) that Dee will be martyred in Lee's eyes and he will feel eternally guilty for not being a better husband to her. I would like Lee to take back all the lies he said in TaB and tell Dee the truth that Kara's the one he loves and always has been. But like you, I know I'll never get it. I suspect Sam and Dee's dignity will be preserved and if they die it will be heroic and selfless...which will basically taint any future Lee and Kara have.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee owns Karabop_radar on January 9th, 2009 08:58 am (UTC)
I have a very strong feeling that Anders is going to die a martyr's death. TBH I hadn't honestly even thought about Dee (does anyone care if she dies?) but I agree that it should be made 100% clear that they are both divorced and choosing each other, the past relationships were a mistake and that they're setting out on a new future together. Even if the show didn't let them have a happy ending after that (by killing one or both), I would feel far more satisfied on a fundamental level than if we get what I think we will get, which is martyr's death(s?) and ambiguity at best.

I suspect Sam and Dee's dignity will be preserved and if they die it will be heroic and selfless...which will basically taint any future Lee and Kara have.
That is so depressing, but I feel absolutely certain it will be the case.
is that how they do it in the pros?: *gen - a big fuck youantismiles on January 9th, 2009 09:37 am (UTC)
OMG WORD TO THE GAZILLIONTH POWER.

This is everything I wanted to say and more. Once again, you said exactly what I was thinking.

*sigh* It's sad that BSG has become the show I love to hate. Dammit, I wish I wasn't a completionist, too. :/
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:19 pm (UTC)
:D :D Thanks!

You have no idea how long this post has existed in my head before I had the courage to say it. But it needed to be said before 4.5.

Completionists have it tough (but are AWESOME!).
a reason to fight: BSG - Lee/Kara - End Of The Lineareasontofight on January 9th, 2009 10:56 am (UTC)
I agree with most of your comments here, though won't go through it all because what S4 did is stop me thinking about the show. I marathoned S1-3 the first time round and spent a lot of time disecting everything and working out what it all meant. I didn't hate S4, but I stopped analysing and just watched it - maybe because I knew I wouldn't like what was happening if I questioned it too much.

But the one thing I agree with completely is:

'Out of all the things that the first half of the season failed to address, the least interesting of all to me is who the Final Cylon is. You know what? I couldn't give a frak. If it's someone we don't know at all, then why would I care? And if it's someone we do know then it's not going to be a shock because we've all had lots of time to think of all the possibilities'

I honestly don't care who the final one is. I'm pretty sure it'll be someone we know, and know well, but (other than hoping it's not Lee) who gives a crap?! I've gone through every character it could be so many times that I won't be the slightest bit shocked when we find out. And I think having us find out about the final four already lessens the impact of the final one. We've already gone through characters we like (and Anders) becoming Cylons and it won't bother me to find out one more is. Apart from Lee because a) I ♥ him and b) he's the only character with a parent actually on the show and so it wouldn't be feasible. All I care about now is an explanation of how the Cylons evolved and why the final four and one are different or special. I also need Roslin to die too. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee plottingbop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:29 pm (UTC)
Yup, I think if I hadn't felt a responsibility to meta every week the same would have happened to me. I definitely hit the 'I don't even care' wall at some stage in 4.0 and then when I did look more closely at the eps nothing hung together. Like 'Revelations'! I remember being genuinely amazed by it on first watch because of all the fast drama and reveals. On second watch? It doesn't make sense at ALLL. It's cliched, poorly paced, and a real stretch and raises heaps of issues for the overall plotting and characterization. Sigh.

I honestly don't care who the final one is.
I KNOW, RIGHT?! I had to say this almost more than anyone else. I could not be more bored by the whole question. I feel like TPTB think this is still a big deal to us: it's not. Guess what? I've thought long and hard about what it will mean if Bill is the Final Cylon (Lame). I've thought long and hard about it being Roslin (somewhat less lame). I've thought long and hard about it being Kara (too obvious) and Lee (annoying but possible), and every other character that has crossed our screen including the frigging animals.

already gone through characters we like (and Anders) becoming Cylons and it won't bother me to find out one more is
Hahaha, I love how Anders is in parantheses. *smirk* Yeah, that's the other thing that makes me not care--I feel like we've 'been there done that' and it wasn't that great. I mean we got to see some pretty horrible and tragic impacts of it on The Chief and his life, but I expected a lot more exploration of what it did to the Tigh-Adama friendship and that only came out really late. Instead we got Tigh screwing Caprica which was so WT? I can't even think about it without laughing. Tory got a bit more time but I still feel her proximity to the President was underused. And as for Anders, well any expectation that Kara would find it in any way an issue that her husband was a Cylon was destined to be disappointed. So if the fallout about the Final Cylon follows the similar blah pattern, I think it will be the most tedious and yawn-enducing part of Season 4.
Zoi: bsg-tigh3gomez on January 9th, 2009 11:30 am (UTC)
Oops,there's a chance I'm one of 'those' fans,too.Can I join the club,please? *smile*

Yes,I do enjoy and embrace the squee when necessary,but my lj entries on Season 4 have been quite whiny,and I am glad that there seem to be people who feel underwhelmed/ unsatisfied by it.

I am in complete agreement with most of your statements:
-Kara's return was not explored the way it should and I'm left with a fear that the remaining episodes will not properly resolve/explain this storyline...And to make things worse,S4 made me somehow disconnect with Kara(who happens to be one of my favorite characters) because of the odd plot and writing.
-Lee?Another favorite of mine.So much potential this season...All wasted.He and Adama were totally underused in S4.
-Way too much (stupidly)secret-cylon-meetings.Way,WAY too much of Baltar's harem/ sexcapades.Which,needless to say,was a story that did not promote the plot at all.
-I'm not really a fan of the cylons,so I was not happy with all that cylon stuff.Too much of the season was about them,and I I love/enjoy the humans a lot more.
-The K/L (non-)storyline.Meh.Inconsistent writing for one of the most important relationships through the whole series.Complete luck of continuity from the brig scene in 4.2 up to...the season finale.
And as a shipper,I'm extra bitter.
-OMG,yes!!!The 'destinies'!!Enough with it already!!
I'm not that much of a fan of the whole 'spiritual' thingy,so the destinies,prophecies,blah thing got tiring for me pretty soon.
*sigh* I preferred my fleet when they where just a bunch of beings fighting for survival.

Oh,sorry if I went too long,or too whiny.

As a conclusion,I will watch and discuss the new season.But I have lost some of my trust in Ron and Co,so I won't expect much.If something happens to positively surprise me,great!But I am not holding my breath that S4.5 will be the BEST!THING!EVER! or that I will get satisfied by the series finale...(which I bet will be rather ambiguous in many aspects).

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Humans!bop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:39 pm (UTC)
He and Adama were totally underused in S4
Yes, it's like they ceased to have any real agency except when whipped out of the props cupboard by the writers at the last moment to solve a plotting problem.

I'm not really a fan of the cylons,so I was not happy with all that cylon stuff.Too much of the season was about them,and I I love/enjoy the humans a lot more.
Yeah, look, me too. And halfway through the season I did think that was the only problem. But I don't think it is! I've done a lot of thinking about the Cylons since, especially because I'm so in love with the portrayal of Cameron (in Sarah Connor Chroncles) and I think it's not that my dislike of the Cylons is inherent, it's actually just that what they show us on the show about them is vague, boring and unsatisfying. I loooove the idea of the Cylons! Robots that evolve is a plot I can really get into... evil robots, check ... robots that develop consciences, check. It's just that BSG's exploration of these ideas is really half-baked.

I preferred my fleet when they where just a bunch of beings fighting for survival.
SAME. What's with the spirtualism? So bad. *eyeroll* Lee allowing Kara's comment about their being a deity directing everything (YUH: RDM) to go unrebutted was the final straw for me. Where are the atheists and sceptics? Where are the people saying 'um... you don't think this recent religosity and clutching at straws could be a symptom of us all finally going insane, do you?' (It sure looks like that to me.)

Please feel free to rant/whine away. This post is the end result of over six months of grief, anger and numbness about the whole situation. I love this show with all my heart. It broke that heart. It is no. 1 on my list of shows that should have been absolutely awesome but turned into trainwrecks. *sniffles*

Yeah, I've totally lost all faith in the producers. And I'm getting really sick of being told that the finale will be the BEST!THING!EVER! and my little mind will be blown. Oh yeah?! o.O Bring it, then, bitches! Blow me! :p

So yup, complete cynicism about the finale, and the more times they tell me that I will/must LOVE IT AS THE BEST THING EVER, the less likely I am to.

Edited at 2009-01-09 10:40 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - 3gomez on January 12th, 2009 01:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on January 13th, 2009 08:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kate: Gaius and Sixmskatej on January 9th, 2009 12:58 pm (UTC)
I agree with you one hundred percent.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Sixbop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:41 pm (UTC)
It had to be said.
Cosettecosetteferaud on January 9th, 2009 01:35 pm (UTC)
Ouch! That hurt :). As you know, I’m a newish BSG fan; I mean, I discovered the show a year ago and I marathoned S1-3. Then I watched season 4 in real time and, despite that it is not my favorite season at all, I am still excited about the show and its endgame. I guess that I am in a different place than you right now, but I can perfectly understand your disappointment because you have been here for so long; and I think you finally burned out: he previous hiatus was so long and, after that, season 4 was a weird season (I wouldn’t state that it was a bad season but it is true that it left too many unanswered questions and some character characterizations were not well-handled). So even if I am still hopeful and excited, I must confess that I agree with most of the points you mention here:

By mid-season I felt like Kara was not a character any more so much as a puppet for the writers to push the plot development they wanted.
I completely agree with you here. I always considered myself a Kara girl. I fall for her practically from the very first moment I met her in the miniseries. However, I must admit that I have problems with her characterization this season. Well, I have been very annoyed with her during S4… I couldn’t understand all her craziness during the Demetrius story arch, and right now I am totally clueless about how she feels about Lee -and Sam- anymore… But I still love Kara. And I hope RDM and co. will give us the answers we need.

Lee gaining the presidency--was so badly executed.
I couldn’t agree more. For me, “Sine qua non” was the worst episode of this season by far. It was hilarious (and in a bad sense). Lee gaining the presidency in such a silly and rushed way was absurd (Romo and the dead cat, OMG!!! O_O). I am OK with Lee being president (I’ve always preferred him in the political scenario), but the plot development in this specific story arch was absolutely lame.

Too much Baltar!sex.
I am not a fan of Baltar, that is for sure. And that messianic role of him (as a smart flister pointed out, now we could call him “Baltar Christ”) is too obvious. Baltar has never been my favorite character, but I preferred the frivolous scientist of seasons 1 and 2. And let’s hope that his storyline will be a pivotal element of the final outcome.

The ball being completely dropped on the Kara/Lee relationship
Yes. That makes me very sad. The brig scene is one of my all time favorite K/L scenes. It was such a honest moment for them. It screamed “we love each other” and “we are meant to be together”, and “maybe now it is not the moment but we will find a way to work it out”. So I can’t understand the lack of interaction between Kara and Lee throughout season 4.
And yes, please, Kara need to choose Lee and divorce Anders while Anders is alive. I agree with you here: I don’t want Lee to be the choice for Kara because Anders is already dead. I would feel terribly cheated if that is the resolution of Kara and Lee’s love story. Anyway, I also have the feeling that Anders is going to be a martyr…
The only thing I feel for sure is that I want a confirmation that Kara and Lee are meant to be together because they are the love of each other’s lives. If RDM and co. give me that, I think I could live happily (even if Kara and Lee’s ending is not a happy one... As a matter of fact, I think that K/L love story should have a bittersweet ending… epic = tragic, and theirs is a epic love story).
But I’m hopeful anyway. My Pilot!Love is strong. And I want to believe that Lee and Kara will have their moment.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:54 pm (UTC)
Oh no! *rushes to reassure* I worried about making this post because I did not want to upset anyone and I know there are new fans like you and callmeonetrack very much in first flush of love with the show. And I don't want to put out that flame! Because it IS a very good show. I still completely understand why people love it and once season 4 is over, I will go back to loving it unreservedly, even if that means that I deny the existence of seasons 3 and 4. ;) The first couple of seasons are some of the best television ever.

Yes, the long hiatuses did not help. *nods*

couldn’t understand all her craziness during the Demetrius story arch, and right now I am totally clueless about how she feels about Lee -and Sam- anymore
It was really interesting watching the Kara fans in season 4. They all seemed to 'lose touch' with her at some point--though not all at the same times. They seemed to lose that instinctive thread of understanding between them and Kara that made them be able to explain exactly what was going on with her to those of us that never really understand her well. That's really sad. I hope it comes back.

I am OK with Lee being president (I’ve always preferred him in the political scenario), but the plot development in this specific story arch was absolutely lame.
Yeah, I love the idea of Lee being president in theory, but the execution was aaaaawwwwwwful.

now we could call him “Baltar Christ”)
Yes, the overt Christian overtones in that plot really bothered me. Also, now that i have vidded him, I find it one of the most tragic aspects of the whole show that his original scientific scepticism and atheism was eroded by head!Six and her abuse of him.

The brig scene is one of my all time favorite K/L scenes.
Same. At that time in the season, I was genuinely upbeat about all the possibilities. I was surprised by how slowly the plot was unfolding but I still had faith.

I would feel terribly cheated if that is the resolution of Kara and Lee’s love story. Anyway, I also have the feeling that Anders is going to be a martyr…
I think this will be a dreadful mistake on the part of TPTB but I think it will happen. I don't think they realise how cheated a lot of fans (and casual viewers--because most casual viewers I know believe that Kara/Lee is the OTP of the show) will feel.

I have always expected a tragic or bittersweet ending for Kara/Lee, because as you say it's an epic love story. I loooove tragedy and epics so that could have played perfectly for me. But I feel they undermined the 'true love' of K/L way too much with the alterna!ships, particularly Anders, and the fact that Kara is still married to him! So they're going to have to work really hard from here on to redeem that and show that K/L is the REAL love. A moment of 'oh, I love you too!' before one of them dies isn't going to be enough for me, I'm afraid.
Cosettecosetteferaud on January 9th, 2009 01:36 pm (UTC)
I’m being wordy, sorry :)

who the Final Cylon is. You know what? I couldn't give a frak.
Same feeling here. I don’t care at all who the final cylon is. I only care about my characters now (especially Lee and Kara… and if caring mainly for them makes me a bad BSG fan –because the show is much more than them, I know- I think I can live with that :) ).

Roslin needs to die—pronto
Oh, yes please. Well, what I really need is the death of a main character. For me, Adama or Roslin would be fine (and not because I don’t care for them, I like both of them –especially Laura, I find her one of the best characters of the show-), but I don’t need more meaningless deaths. Just I want RDM to be brave enough to do that.

The unrelenting bleakness needs to end.
I agree here, too. We all know that BSG is a dark show; and I have always liked it. But most of times (especially since S3) it is too painful to watch: everything seems so hopeless, bleak and depressing… I think that the audience needs some lighter moments (as there were in S1 and 2).

I know I'm being pretty critical, but I’m still hopeful about the ending. I doubt that BSG is going to have a happy ending, but I think they will give us some light; and I (want to) believe that the final chapter of this story will be satisfying and touching (and please, please, I don’t want an ambiguous ending!!). Anyway, I will be here to watch and discuss. Let’s see what happens :)

Sorry for my wordiness (I’ll try to be more succinct next time :D)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee solacebop_radar on January 9th, 2009 10:58 pm (UTC)
I think most BSG fans have a strong loyalty to one or two characters--it's a really interesting fandom that way because depending on who our character is we view the show very differently.

Yes, RDM needs to be brave and have a main character death early in season 4. Laura would be my vote, because it's been foreshadowed so much. Otherwise Adama.

I think that the audience needs some lighter moments (as there were in S1 and 2).
Exactly! It was always a dark show and will always be, but I think crafting some lighter moments as well would make it more sophisticated.

I am VERY GLAD that you have faith and hope in the show still. I wish I shared it but I am honestly glad some people do. Please don't take my feelings about the show to heart--our exprerience with the show has been very different because of the way we watched. And regardless I will still enjoy the buzz from week to week--watching the show with people in fandom is very exciting, I hope you will enjoy it!
(no subject) - cosetteferaud on January 9th, 2009 11:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on January 10th, 2009 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Lee - Awesome - Airingsasta77 on January 9th, 2009 02:21 pm (UTC)
BSG still remains my all time favorite show, WTFs, continuity errors, bad Lee characterization, melodrama, and all. ;) I actually feel the series, while not returning to the glory days of Season 1 and Season 2.0, got back on track in Season 4.0. Baltar's harem left me cold, but I found much to enjoy. Of course, I got Lee and Laura talking again which helped a lot. :) Many of the things you wished were addressed in 4.0 and want to be addressed in 4.5 are going to be addressed. Yes, I believe Ron when he says the majority of plot points will be resolved.

Doing my rewatch I felt Season 2.5 held up better than I originally thought, but I will agree with you that Season 3 remains a mess. Way too much time spent on melodrama - Fat Lee, Kara NC angst, the Lee/Kara/Sam/Dee Quadrangle of Doom - and then there was the run of silly standalones that I'm about to embark on. I do feel that Ron wanted to try new things and just lost sight of what was important to the series and the fans.

I'm sorry you and others have lost your squee for the show, but please don't feel you have to talk about the upcoming eps unless you are really moved to do so, even if it is negative. I like reading differing opinions because they make me think. Accept maybe about Lee/Kara. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee smilebop_radar on January 9th, 2009 11:03 pm (UTC)
Awww, I'm glad you still love it. You've made me question where it stands in my personal canon. Hmm. It's still in the top 5, probably top 3... I still think seasons 1 and 2 are some of the best television out there ever.

While season 4.0 was airing I found things to enjoy, including the Lee-Laura interaction (probably my season highlight). But it all settled really badly with me because so little of it so far makes any sense.

I may end up posting every week: I really have no idea! I just needed to be upfront about how I felt going in. I really admire you and QoT and others for doing a full rewatch before going into season 4. I wanted to in theory but every time I thought about the show I felt so miserable and let down that I couldn't face it. If it levels up again I will enjoy a rewatch once it's over. But it got so bad that I couldn't even vid the show--and that's bad for me.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 9th, 2009 11:05 pm (UTC)
No idea! But it is SO ANNOYING. This is top of my list of 'truly amazing shows that turn to complete crap' now. The first couple of seasons are some of the best television ever, truly. But I feel badly let down by the rest.

Actually. I think I do know why: the creators' ego kicks in and makes them not listen to reason any more.
Call Me OneTrackcallmeonetrack on January 9th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC)
I'm actually really glad you posted this because I've wondered for a while just what happened/how severely your love for the show had been squashed. (As you probably know, I'm more in the same place Cosette is above timeline-wise and with my show love.) So it was enlightening and I'm glad you're still going to participate in this fandom (even if it's more limited than before.) I will really miss your meta posts and I always like hearing your feedback on new fics and vids and whatnot. So I feel bad if you can't watch/read also because of your show disgust.

Re: 4.5 I have the strong suspicion it's mostly going to be like 4.0 (very plot heavy, lacking character development, lots of timewasting with Baltar/Head Six/Leoben and all the other elements I find less than scintillating.) BUT I do think the three-part finale will be excellent. The cast (esp. Katee) is pretty vocal about saying when things don't work and the unequivocal feeling/response for them on the finale is how perfect and fitting and wonderful is. I'm taking that as a good sign.

Also, this is not spoilery, but I know you don't like to read or hear anything about what's coming, but RDM did an interview with Alan Sepinwall last week where he specifically answers what will and what won't be addressed in 4.5 (just yes or no answers). There's not really any spoilery stuff there by most standards. I don't know if it would make you feel better to know you're whether or not you're going to get answers to some of the questions you raise above. Or maybe it doesn't matter since you're zen/not really engaging in BSG much anymore.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on January 9th, 2009 11:14 pm (UTC)
Thank you--it was very hard for me to make this post. I sound pretty calm here but it actually broke my heart that the show spoiled in my eyes so much. There were actual tears about it. Also I really didn't want to upset anyone who was still enjoying it or was new to the show--because I still love it and understand why other people do.

Re: 4.5 I have the strong suspicion it's mostly going to be like 4.0 (very plot heavy, lacking character development, lots of timewasting
*nods* I really think so.

I have heard all the squee about the finale but I'm so cynical I just can't believe it, and I also feel a bit resentful already: I hate being told what I will feel. Um, thanks, I'll make my own mind up! So I don't know... I believe that it will be better than the rest of 4.5, I believe it will be 'shocking!' but can I believe it will actually stand up to close examination? Not sure.

Thanks for the idea about the interview but I find RDM's ideas of what constitutes an answer and 'resolution' to be pretty out of whack with my own. I think it would just annoy me more. I'll wait for 4.5 to prove itself on its own merits. If it does resolve any of the things above then my prediction is that I will post about it because I'll actually have something interesting to discuss! *g*

And yes, it was really awful for me to feel so sad about the show I couldn't read fic or watch vids. That's mostly over now, but I don't know what will happen. The funny thing is I really think once the show is over, no matter how disappointing it is, I'll feel FAR more able to do so! I'm weird like that, but once it's all over I'll feel more comfortable running with my own version of canon in my mind and/or discussing what happened. But until I know how much more of my beloved show they will destroy I feel like I'm a bit in limbo and when I read something about it part of my brain is just thinking about that and not engaging properly with the fic or meta or vid.
m_a_r_i_k_s: duelm_a_r_i_k_s on January 9th, 2009 02:54 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately, I agree with most of your points here, Bop. 5 years ago BSG started as a very different show, much more consistent in terms of charactarisation and storytelling. And I see how you feel because I've been watching it in real time since S2 started, living through numerous discussions and debates with my friends in real time, and then to have it turned into something you don't enjoy watching anymore can be very frustrating.

Personally, I think it's been quite a ride, and for the most part I don't regret getting involved in it. I still think that it's one of the best shows the tv-screens have ever known, just not the fourth season of it. No other tv-show or imaginary universe on screen has ever touched me so deeply and made me want to think, understand motivations of different characters' actions, talk about it, care! and create! In that respect, BSG is still a miracle to my eyes. In it's best moments it manages to combine personal, psychological, social, political and universally human levels of different issues exploration.

Just as you, I'll still be watching because I need that closure, I need to see them answering those many questions and give TPTB a chance to satisfy me at least to some extent. If I don't like S4.5 in general - I'll just have to try to come up with my on version of closure in my head, which would be very disappointing.

I'm sure Roslin will die though. If not, RDM will make a complete fool of himself and I actually think he realises it.

Kara's storyline and characterisation was one of the major issues for me in S4. The scariest thing about it is the fact that Moore could make a plot-tool even out of his *favorite!* character. I also think that Kara's arch was far worse than Lee's in S4. Maybe I'm biased here, but I'd prefer any form of political or ideological struggle where Lee and Roslin are involved to crazy prophesies and destinies, which only break my second favorite character even more than she already is... to the point when she acts like she's actually nuts and needs medical help.

What I really need to see in S4.5 is humans realising that their alliance with the Cylons is a bad joke and that they'd been conned into it by prophesies, circumstances, whatever! Pretty please? I can't stand this anymore, especially after Geita's journey in webisodes, which made me detest Sharon's model completely. How am I supposed to empathise with the "good" party of Cylons if it consists of Leobens, Sharons and... well, Sixes - the least friendly model from the get-go?

I don't care if they want to be closer to the Final Four and discover their true nature/history/destiny, it doesn't make them less guilty for what they'd done to the human race for frak's sake! Moreover, they never acknowledged any kind of responsibility for the holocaust, let alone showed remorse.

Kara needs to choose Lee and divorce Anders. While Anders is still alive. I've had it with the writers wanting to keep all ships possible/alive/open. I'm sure that what will actually happen is that Anders will die a martyr's death, and Kara will feel so belatedly guilty that she vows to cherish his memory forever.

This is my biggest fear. I need her to choose Lee, DAMMIT! And while I can totally see that Lee's already made his choice, it wouldn't hurt him to actually divorce Dee too, not just shake hands and say something like "well, sorry, it didn't work out, but I'll sill follow the footsteps of my father and wear your ring as a reminder of my failure". GUH.

All in all, I'll still be here for the characters that I love to bits (no matter how many times RDM and Co. screw with them) and for getting some answers, if not for the high quality most subtle storytelling.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on January 9th, 2009 11:52 pm (UTC)
I love your icon!

Personally, I think it's been quite a ride, and for the most part I don't regret getting involved in it. I still think that it's one of the best shows the tv-screens have ever known, just not the fourth season of it.
Same! And I still love it. *g* Just not the fourth season.

I need that closure, I need to see them answering those many questions and give TPTB a chance to satisfy me at least to some extent. If I don't like S4.5 in general - I'll just have to try to come up with my on version of closure in my head, which would be very disappointing
It would be, but I'm perfectly willing to do it. :) I read a novel as a little girl (a very famous Australian children's book) and it ended with the death of my favourite character. I was so upset I sat down right then and there and wrote a different ending. So whenever I think about something I love being destroyed in the end, I think back to that and think that I can do that again--if only in my head. I'll always have the characters I love in my heart, regardless of what RDM does to them.

Kara's arch was far worse than Lee's in S4
It was. 'Sine qua non' was not a great episode but at least Lee wasn't put through such embarrassingly dreadful and confusing material (offensive material sometimes!) as Kara. Poor girl needs a break.

How am I supposed to empathise with the "good" party of Cylons if it consists of Leobens, Sharons and... well, Sixes - the least friendly model from the get-go?
Yeah... I find them all 'interesting' psychologically, but not sympathetic. 'Good' is only relative. And yes, I need them to say that they deeply regret participating in the genocide and are willing to be held responsible for it. If then the humans are generous enough to release them from that because they see the capacity for change in these models, I will buy it. But I don't feel they've confronted what they've done.

it wouldn't hurt him to actually divorce Dee too
Oh, I know! That was ridiculous. If they're going to have the alterna!marriages, at least make it clear when they're over and have proper divorces!

The characters I love will always be in my heart regardless of what RDM does to them, and Lee is still my favourite TV character ever.