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25 January 2009 @ 03:01 pm
BSG 4.12 A Disquiet Follows My Soul  
Despite the cracktastic title (srsly, who makes these up? don't answer that!), this wasn't completely terrible (I still wouldn't watch it though, mskatej and supacat).

I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because it wasn't that engaging, but I was pleasantly surprised by this episode. While there were still a lot of WTF elements and unintended lolz, there was some solid content in there too. And hey, Gaeta is my total HERO after this episode! (Sorry, Lee, babe, you are waaaay too entrenched in the quagmire of compromise in this instance.) It will end badly, I fear for him, but he completely holds my sympathy and I think he's an excellent choice to represent the many (most!) members of the Fleet who will not accept a Cylon alliance.

Most unwelcome incidental elements
1. Adama's bathroom routine x 2
2. Adama reading (blessedly brief)
3. Adama stonewalling stupidly in the press conference (you do yourself no favours, dude!)
4. Adama giving Roslin 'permission' to live for today (she doesn't need his permission, writers, GAH! 5. I hate the way they write A/R)
6. Adama saying he hates the job (well for FRAK'S sake JUST RESIGN ALREADY!)
Gah. He's still driving me nuts. There was way too much of him in this episode.

Most cracktastic/annoying aspects
1. Tigh and Caprica and an ultrasound. *rotfl* I can't even... has the show made ANY attempt to explain Caprica's attraction to Tigh? AT ALL? Don't answer that. The greater implications of their baby were also largely ignored. They were dealt with as a couple's squishy bonding moment. Future of the Cylon nation? Does anyone else even care that Cylons can reproduce now?! You should all be running scared, humans! /frustration
2. Chief's baby is now HotDog's baby? Say what now? I would be more annoyed if I actually cared about the characters in question. But it is another laughable instance of RDM having no clear plan from the outset and getting himself in ridiculous situations he has to retcon later. Cally's attempt to kill the kidlet makes a lot less sense now.
3. Roslin's crazy!jog (just plain embarrassing)
4. Bill overacts with a toothbrush.
5. Tigh TOLD Adama and Lee about Ellen and their reaction was 'oh, interesting, guess we don't have to worry about her or tell anyone'. Huh? *genuinely confused face*

Things I liked
- Gaeta
- The media frenzy at the press conference, and finding out that most of the Fleet is NOT in favour of an Alliance
- Zarek. A bit. Ok, I don't really like the guy but I really like the plot and the fact that someone is stepping up and voicing the anti-Cylon. I don't view Zarek as a purist though because he's too much of a politician. It's Gaeta the idealist with his reformed naivety that I feel for and admire.
- Finally getting to see the context of the press conference scene and Lee's faux pas.
- Intentional humour making a return! Possibly the best aspect of the whole episode. I liked Lee being amused at Zarek's 'sorry, I get confused about what your job is on any given day' (me too, Zarek, me too) and I rather liked Tigh's snarky 'maybe you'd like a chart to keep it all straight' when Chief was doing his whole 'I'm a Cylon, I'm a human, I'm a ... ?' thing

Most lingering reaction
Hahaha, Adama, you have only yourself to blame.

I thought about trying to see things his way, but really? I think the guy needs to step down. I think the Adama/Roslin administration has been out of touch with the Quorum, and beyond that with the reality of people's opinions in the fleet, for a long, long, time. And they're now paying the price.

So they want their to be an Alliance? Well they're going to have to realise people won't swallow that easily. And they are going to have to listen to those people and take their views into account. The A/R administration was in a weak position already when it came to having the faith of the fleet with them. To think they could sell an Alliance now at this time seems pretty naive.

I have a lot of sympathy for Roslin and I thought her speech about having played the role of the dying leader for long enough was one of the episode highlights. At a personal level, I like her saying 'enough's enough'. However, it creates a frightening vacuum. Lee is in a very awkward position here and can only really stand by and watch it happen. He tries to play things the right way, he's right in saying Roslin needs to step forward and speak to the people (she's needed to do more of that for a long time), but he can't force anything without stepping outside of regulations.

I'm still not completely clear why Lee is so pro-Cylon-Alliance now, but I really liked hearing about the practical reasons why an Alliance with the Cylons was a desirable outcome for logistic reasons. I hold out hope (HAHAHAHA FOOLISH) that he may eventually be able to bridge the gap between the rebels and the military led by Adama.

However, I'm still finding Gaeta the character who is most easy to sympathise with here. I think he represents more 'normal' members of the Fleet--people who have suffered personally at the hands of the Cylons, both in the initial attacks and then on New Caprica, as well as in the flight/war period. I find it absolutely insane that Tigh still holds his position, and I really loved Gaeta tackling Kara about these things.

Yeah, I do feel sorry for Kara about being dead (dear god, the things this show makes one write!) but not on the Cylon front. From being a hardcore anti-collaborator she became an advocate for the Alliance. She believed that a destiny she knew was linked to the Cylons was a destiny humanity should chase. When she found out she'd been literally sleeping with the enemy, her reaction was ... nothing. Given that Gaeta didn't know anything about Kara's recent personal trauma, I think it's completely reasonable for him to call her on her hypocrisy. And given that the fact her husband is a Cylon has been completely ignored elsewhere in the show, I was absolutely partying at Gaeta's (appropriate) bitchiness in that scene. I fear for Gaeta though because Kara is this show's hero.

Kara and Adama. Sigh.

I'd trade them in for Gaeta and Lee any day.
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: blahblah
 
 
 
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - kendraantismiles on January 25th, 2009 08:38 am (UTC)
I still haven't seen the episode. Hearing that it's got a bunch of Adama in it doesn't make me want to see it more. If anything, it lessens my interest. I hate Adama. He's a self-centered ass who plays the victim card ("oh, my son has betrayed me by upholding the ideals of democracy and refusing to let my best friend arrest my commander-in-chief; I WILL NEVER FORGIVE HIM FOR THIS TREACHERY") and he's so self-righteous and a frankly, a poor authority figure. I don't know if I'd want him as my CO if I was military. :/

And yes, I would trade Kara and Adama for Gaeta and Lee any day of the week. I'm so over Kara and Adama. I want them gone. I wish Kara had stayed dead and never come back because then season 4 would probably be a helluva lot stronger and it would've underscored the fact that they're in a war and death comes unexpectedly and at random. Having her resurrect really damaged the reality of the show, even more than when Roslin's delusions turned out to be true.

The only characters I'm invested in are Lee, Gaeta, and Zarek. If Dee hadn't shot herself, I would've been invested in her storyline too. She redeemed herself in my eyes that episode. In fact, if she'd lived, I would've become the conductor for the "get Lee and Dee back together (but only if they're like they were in Notion)" train. That's an unpopular opinion, but it's true. *shrugs*

As for everyone else? They could die and I really wouldn't care.
patron saint of neglected female characters: gaetarose_griffes on January 25th, 2009 03:33 pm (UTC)
Having Tom Zarek around actually makes Adama much more bearable. He's still not right, but at least he's not over-the-top manic; he's forced to be wily while dealing with Zarek.

I think you'd like Gaeta's scene with Kara, too. He clearly wins in their little battle of words.
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - kendraantismiles on January 25th, 2009 08:58 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing Gaeta's scene with Kara. I've been waiting for Kara to get a verbal smackdown since Demetrius, so this is a welcome surprise. I love that Gaeta wins. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC)
That's the clincher for me. I love Kara, I'm sympathetic to her (despite appearances) but the way they've written it this season she NEEDS a verbal smackdown. Gaeta was so super-slick at delivering it, I loved it. He was so calm and Kara was all inflammatory. Which given that Gaeta's goal was to inflame her, is really both hilarious and wonderful. *hearts Gaeta*
Raprap541 on January 25th, 2009 03:00 pm (UTC)
I have to admit it was pretty sweet to see Gaeta publically bring up some ugly points to Kara - her murder plots with Cylons, her husband being a Cylon, her vision leading them all to doom, and all Kara could do was make cripple jokes.

And yes, Kara's the hero and that means we're watching the start of Gaeta's death arc. I will buy you a virtual gift of your choice if he's not executed within the next five episodes. I say five btw, because I already have the feeling that this is gonnna draaaaaggggg until those promised final three eepisodes where finally everything is revealed.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee frak betide!bop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC)
Yes, it was sweeeeeeeeeet! I can just imagine how all the Kara fans must be yelping. But the thing is, Kara isn't some sweet little innocent that needs defending. She can take care of herself and I do think that she should be accountable for her actions like everyone else. But she's so good at denial that there's a danger she never will be. Gaeta took it far (pulling in perception issues as well as cold hard facts) but like Adama, Kara did herself no favours with her response. Given that I think someone needs to oppose the Alliance, I'm completely pro-Gaeta here.

And I totally lol'd at your bet. I can't bet against that! I agree! But yeah with the draggage... seriously, is ANYone going to die quickly this season? *yawns*

It's official. I need a Gaeta icon.
Call Me OneTrackcallmeonetrack on January 25th, 2009 03:52 pm (UTC)
Aw I'm sad to hear you say you've given up on Kara and would trade her for Gaeta (although a tad amused because that would mean shipping Gaeta/Lee).

I thought the Kara/Gaeta scene was really well done and in-character for both of them and Gaeta clearly wins. I also don't think he's going to be executed anytime soon. I think the rebellion is going to land all of our leads in serious trouble but that Gaeta will remain safe. I can't decide if I think the revolution will stretch out over the whole next seven eps or what. That might get tiresome. Next week should be exciting though.

And OMG Yes to the incredibly quiet/non-reaction to Ellen being the fifth. They wanted to know who the fifth was for so long and they just you know take Tigh's word for it? That he had a vision/flashback and knew? That's pretty flimsy for two (Adama and Lee) such nonbelievers in general. And Laura never believes anyone's visions/prophecies but her own, so I'm hard-pressed to think she'd buy into it. I guess they're just distracted by earth and misery? IDK.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee lolbop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
Oh I haven't really given up on Kara, I just have major issues with the way the writers write her plots. At a personal level I'm really sympathetic to her and my heart bled seeing her sitting there, clearly in deep angst about her deadness.

I am torn... on the one hand I don't want the rebellion to drag out because I'm fed up with the dragging, but on the other hand once it's over that's it for me with the plots that I will actually like this season!!

They wanted to know who the fifth was for so long and they just you know take Tigh's word for it? That he had a vision/flashback and knew? That's pretty flimsy for two (Adama and Lee) such nonbelievers in general.
I know!!! It's SOOOO ridiculous and totally exemplifies how much the show has changed. It's really sloppy writing. Even if Adama believed Tigh despite their tiff last week, why would LEE take Adama's word that Tigh had had a vision? At first my reaction was actually 'omg! Lee thinks KARA is the Cylon and that she died a long time ago!' because it just seemed so un-frakking-believable that they bought Ellen on Tigh's word. I mean honestly, wouldn't that sound like the ramblings of a crazy old man Cylon?! o.O

I can't fanwank that one away, I'm afraid.
Vacuum state of peacebzoppa on January 25th, 2009 04:55 pm (UTC)
Hee, I think this is my pattern for the season:

iheartschnickle calls me on Friday or Saturday to update me on events.

Then I read your reactions.

Nope, no need for me to watch it! :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC)
That sounds blessedly pressure-free! :p Glad to be of assistance. I'll let you know as soon as anything you need to watch actually happens but suspect it won't be until the much-promised probably-over-hyped final three episodes. ;)
thrace_adama: K/L profiles no textthrace_adama on January 25th, 2009 05:15 pm (UTC)
I was pleasantly surprised by this episode, as I'd known by last week's preview that it wouldn't be the most exciting for or interesting to me.

I loved the Gaeta/Kara scene, though I was completely on her side for this one. Kara is not responsible for his leg (she was the first to rush to his aid, though) and she had absolutely no way of knowing her husband would turn out to be a Cylon. Gaeta was clearly trying to rile her up and get her out of the room, and thus he really went into the whole conversation trying to be as hateful as possible--Kara was just reacting with the Starbuck shield in place.

I do recognize that Gaeta was on the mark, however, about the fact that she almost airlocked him for being a collaborator and then only a few months later was supporting a Cylon alliance. But at the same time, Kara was never promoting an alliance between all Cylons, just the rebels, who had the same goal as the humans. Didn't mean she liked them or accepted them, but--like Lee now--she was trying to do what she thought would most help the fleet in the end. And Gaeta himself has had a relationship with a Cylon--if his one bad experience with that 8 hadn't happened, would he still be in the same situation? I do wonder about that. I am no big fan of the Cylons (how could you forget that only four years ago they wiped out your entire civilization and that they are the *only* reason you needed to find Earth in the first place?), but I am more sympathetic toward the rebels at this point and to just doing anything neccessary to keep the fleet going until they can find a new home.

I completely, completely agree with you about everything in your "Most unwelcome incidental elements" and "Most cracktastic/annoying aspects". Cally/Hotdog is a total retcon way to explain why Nicky's never been important as a half-human/half-Cylon, but it just does not work with the picture I always had of Cally. And yeah, makes her whole last episode look ridiculous if she knew Nicky wasn't Tyrol's.

Rap: Artsy Mean Kararap541 on January 25th, 2009 06:51 pm (UTC)
Kara is not responsible for his leg (she was the first to rush to his aid, though) and she had absolutely no way of knowing her husband would turn out to be a Cylon.

I would argue that Kara is responsible for his leg in that she provoked a mutiny by acting crazy, and also by insisting that Gaeta wait fifteen hours in a garbage ship for medical care while she went off on her vision quest. Her vision quest that all things considered, led everyone to shit.

I suspect Gaeta would be a lot less pissed off about losing his leg to Kara's vision if Earth hadn't been all messed up.

Kara was all about Kara on the Demetrious and that killed Matthias and crippled Gaeta.

I do see your point that Gaeta was clearly just getting some digs in, but frankly I think Kara needs to understand that she isn't going to get hugs and kisses and "oh we all feel *your* pain and we want this to be *all about you*" from her shipmates and sometimes her anger at their suspicion and distrust makes me want to shake her. Because she had the vision, led them to Earth and yeah, people are going to blame her and wonder about her and this really isn't an unreasonable reaction.
is that how they do it in the pros?: tv - bsg - kendraantismiles on January 25th, 2009 08:57 pm (UTC)
*nods*

I agree with everything you just said. Kara tends to be all about Kara, and it makes me so furious. You're completely right that Kara needs to learn that she is not the only one hurting right now. I hope she gets more anger and hate from other characters because that's realistic and truthfully, I myself want her to get what's coming to her.

(I really don't like Kara, if you couldn't tell. ;))
Rap: BoxerKararap541 on January 25th, 2009 09:11 pm (UTC)
Hhehehe I don't hate Kara, but she's definetely earned Gaeta's ire, and after a while her lack of awareness of others gets grating. People have every reason to be unhappy with her, and angry with her, and while Gaeta was clearly intending to pick a fight and be a prime ass.... it's interesting to note that he's got some legitemate wrongs caused by Kara and her reaction when confronted is "I don't care, I don't care, I don't care".

Regardless of his leg - I can see where thats iffy with people - he's got a legit point about the airlock. And Kara is loudly telling everyone in the room that she doesn't give a shit about killing innocent people. But she *will* be pissy about how no one trusts her not to murder them... even though she's loudly declaring how she doesn't give two shits who dies on her watch or by her hands.

I like Kara as a character, but she's not exactly standing on the moral high ground here, and people are not being unreasonable meanie haters if they aren't trusting her.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on January 26th, 2009 01:06 am (UTC)
it's interesting to note that he's got some legitemate wrongs caused by Kara and her reaction when confronted is "I don't care, I don't care, I don't care".
Yeah, that's the bit of Kara that I don't like. I understand her character journey, I see her point of view, but she's not a saint and when confronted with her bad actions, I expect more from a hero than 'I don't care, I can do whatever I want'.

he's got a legit point about the airlock. And Kara is loudly telling everyone in the room that she doesn't give a shit about killing innocent people
Absolutely legit! And the lightness with which Kara takes that is really ugly.

I like Kara as a character, but she's not exactly standing on the moral high ground here, and people are not being unreasonable meanie haters if they aren't trusting her.
Yeah, I agree. I like Kara too, I'm totally not a hater, but I think she's on very flimsy ground in comparison to Gaeta.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing challengebop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:35 pm (UTC)
I suspect Gaeta would be a lot less pissed off about losing his leg to Kara's vision if Earth hadn't been all messed up.
Absolutely! And if Kara's vision quest hadn't been ALL CYLON. It's not just that her husband turned out to be a Cylon and that makes her actions look even worse in retrospect, it's that she KNEW they were chasing a Cylon vision all along.
thrace_adama: pony IIthrace_adama on January 26th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC)
would argue that Kara is responsible for his leg in that she provoked a mutiny by acting crazy...

She was definitely acting crazy, but mutiny is mutiny and Gaeta doesn't come out smelling like roses there to me, I'm sorry. (And no, I'm not trying to defend Anders here at all--the man was an idiot in that scene and HE should be the one apologizing for the leg). I also feel Gaeta was just looking for a reason to mutiny since Kara came back; he had a grudge and he was suspicious of her and nothing would have changed that imo.

...but frankly I think Kara needs to understand that she isn't going to get hugs and kisses and "oh we all feel *your* pain and we want this to be *all about you*" from her shipmates...

Oh, Kara has always needed to understand that the world doesn't revolve around her, ITA! But, again, she's Kara and I love her for her all her flaws.
Allison: Kara - Bitchfrolicndetour on January 25th, 2009 09:13 pm (UTC)
Agreed re: Kara.

Kara is not responsible for his leg (she was the first to rush to his aid, though) and she had absolutely no way of knowing her husband would turn out to be a Cylon.

But at the same time, Kara was never promoting an alliance between all Cylons, just the rebels, who had the same goal as the humans.

*nod* Can't defend her actions in Collaborators very far, being a fan of due process and all, but I I think her rage was directed at those who collaborated in a brutal occupation. She wasn't knifing Helo in the back for intentionally sleeping with a Cylon, so I see no hypocrisy in her (unintentionally) sleeping with one. I did love (from a dramatic perspective) how vicious and utterly below the belt they both were in that scene. I mean, I could not believe she brought up the leg - except for how I totally could because she's Starbuck, but you're right, she did rush to his aid eve though he was shot in the act of mutinying against her. That and, well, I'm pretty much always on her side. <3

Edited for spelling and to add that ever since season two at least, and Athena, I think Kara's attitude toward the Cylons has been more complex than simply "kill 'em all." She's been more able than most to see them as individuals under the right circumstances, so I didn't see her being reluctantly pro-Alliance as a huge stretch for her character.

Edited at 2009-01-25 09:49 pm (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on January 26th, 2009 01:12 am (UTC)
I mean, I could not believe she brought up the leg - except for how I totally could because she's Starbuck
Heh, yeah, never my favourite aspect of her personality.

she did rush to his aid eve though he was shot in the act of mutinying against her
She did, and I loved that about her. I just don't love her in this scene because she did herself no favours at all. There IS a good side to Kara (seen in the rushing to Gaeta's aid at the time, though not in the then-letting-him-develop-gangrene-while-she-indulge-her-Cylon-destiny), but it wasn't on show in this scene. A smarter move would have been to say 'you know what, fair call on these points' and point out where Gaeta was exaggerating. That would have defused an explosive situation, instead she made it worse.

Btw, I don't see her as being at ALL reluctant in her pro-Alliance state. She seems to be so pro-Cylon she nearly is one. (I'm still not convinced she isn't)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)
I disagree slightly on the Gaeta/Kara scene, though I thought it was brilliantly written on both sides. I have personal sympathy for Kara, but I think while Gaeta was pushing for a reaction he was more on the money most of the time.

If Kara had admitted that her vision quest was Cylon and that that maybe, you know, looks like a big mistake now. And if she'd had any reaction other than 'oh well' to her husband being revealed as a Cylon, then I think she'd be a lot more sympathetic. Also, she will never admit her hypocrisy when it comes to the collaborator thing. She's too rigid and defensive. A more gracious person would admit that she'd had a change of perspective and apologise. I mean, she nearly killed Gaeta.

Gaeta himself has had a relationship with a Cylon--if his one bad experience with that 8 hadn't happened, would he still be in the same situation?
Er, I think finding out that your girlfriend used you to kill dozens of people you knew is more than a bad experience. Also, the fact that one 8 is capable of this level of deception bodes really ill for the rest of them. On that grounds alone, the Alliance should be rethought.

But yes, Gaeta did have an epiphany experience about the Cylons. Also, finding Earth and Dee's suicide contributed. But Kara could have had a similar epiphany when she found Earth in ashes, her own dead body and her husband a Cylon! That could have resulted in her turning round and thinking 'what the frak was I/were we thinking?!' and opposing the Alliance. It didn't. There's ... something wrong there.

it just does not work with the picture I always had of Cally. And yeah, makes her whole last episode look ridiculous if she knew Nicky wasn't Tyrol's.
Yeah, that's a real pity. I was one of the few people that liked that episode and thought it gave Cally great poignancy as a character.
thrace_adama: K/L profiles no textthrace_adama on January 26th, 2009 11:02 pm (UTC)
I very rarely feel the need to defend Starbuck, so this a bit strange. I agree 100% that Kara can be a total bitch sometimes and definitely is not your typical hero (her tragic flaws are many indeed!); I just really felt for her in this scene.

I hope I didn't come across as argumentative in my original comment, and I apologize if I did. I was just giving my take on the situation. And of course, the fact that I am biased toward Kara and against Gaeta (never been a big fan of his) in general doesn't give me any objectivity in this whatsoever.

If Kara had admitted that her vision quest was Cylon and that that maybe, you know, looks like a big mistake now. And if she'd had any reaction other than 'oh well' to her husband being revealed as a Cylon, then I think she'd be a lot more sympathetic.

But that's just how Kara is! She's internalized all this (as she did with the death of her pilots in Scar) and is projecting the Starbuck persona and all the toughness that goes with it as a shield. She does feel guilty; I don't think she needs Gaeta to point that out to her. Kara has a great fear of being perceived as weak, so I think that's part of it, too--she'd rather die than show anyone how vulnerable she is in her guilt over Earth or Sam or Gaeta's leg. I'm not saying I agree with Kara not even trying to apologize, but it's how Kara's always been and I still love her.

Er, I think finding out that your girlfriend used you to kill dozens of people you knew is more than a bad experience.

Ack, yes, of course. That was a ridiculous understatement on my part and I didn't mean to imply that that wasn't an absolutely horrible experience for Gaeta. I just mean that we have seen that not *all* the Cylons are like that 8. Athena and Boomer (before she was switched on and went crazy with the knowledge that her whole life was a lie), as well as Caprica Six and Natalie (not to mention Tyrol, Sam, and Tigh), have shown immense loyalty to the ones they love, for instance. And we wouldn't judge all of humanity based on one or even a handful of humans (I mean, Baltar and Cain don't exactly represent the best of our species), so I just wish Gaeta would consider that. I myself am very wary of the Alliance, but at the same time I don't feel that tearing the fleet apart is the best way to go about dealing with it. They all need each other now if they're going to survive--the rebels have everything to lose now too.

There's ... something wrong there.
I hadn't even thought of that, but that's a very good point. None of the Cylons seem to know anything about it either, though, so I guess she just doesn't blame them. Yet at least!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 27th, 2009 07:57 am (UTC)
I just really felt for her in this scene.
Oh, I felt for her too! I love Kara and at an emotional level I could see she was really struggling. She's going through things people can't even begin to understand. And don't worry--you didn't sound argumentative, probably I was a little too much so. I really think the Kara/Gaeta scene was one of those where both sides of the picture are very well-developed, convincing and in character. Where our personal sympathies lie depends on so many factors. For me, Gaeta was a little bit the voice of the viewer in that scene--because I've had issues with Kara's plot all season and finally someone was bringing up some of the things that annoyed me the most! ;) I don't blame Kara for a lot of those things--for instance I think it's the writers' fault that there's been no reaction from her about Anders being a Cylon--but I really did appreciate someone bringing it up.

I think you're right--that IS just how Kara is, and I think one of the reasons I liked the scene was that both characters were really firmly in character (however frustrating I find that!). I've never been a big fan of the Starbuck persona and I've always hit frustrations with Kara, even though I love her and wish her only well.

we wouldn't judge all of humanity based on one or even a handful of humans
Mmm, I absolutely agree! But I think most Cylons are murderous, since they carried out the genocide (not counting the Final Five there because we assume they weren't involved) and the ones that are a 'handful' are actually the rare individuals that you listed. I really struggle when people argue that because these few Cylons have demonstrated loyalty to humans it means they all can. To me, that is extapolating a false generalisation from a small handful of people. If the recent revelation about Gaeta's 8 proves anything, it's that even when they seem like they have 'reformed' they have a strong impulse towards killing humans. For me, that's a warning bell the whole fleet should listen to. But I understand that I probably hold an unpopular opinion there.

I don't think tearing the fleet apart is the right idea either, but I understand why Gaeta's doing it and why he feels that it really is the last remaining option available to him. I wish circumstances were such that he could have gone to Lee instead, because I think Lee would have navigated a much more unified solution.
thrace_adamathrace_adama on January 28th, 2009 02:11 am (UTC)
If the recent revelation about Gaeta's 8 proves anything, it's that even when they seem like they have 'reformed' they have a strong impulse towards killing humans.

Fair enough. And after I posted my last comment, I was actually thinking about what someone once said in the show about the 8's...about how they're loyal until they "see something shiny," which fits more in line with your reasoning, I think. So I've decided it's just really a complicated, complicated thing and I should probably leave it at that! It'll be interesting to see where RDM takes it all, in this and even in "Caprica."


I wish circumstances were such that he could have gone to Lee instead, because I think Lee would have navigated a much more unified solution.

Absolutely with you there. That would've been really interesting to me, too. Though of course such a logical step wouldn't have provided *nearly* enough angst for RDM & Co. Heh. Still, I am so looking forward to this week's ep, as both sides do have their points and, erm, I do believe that Starbuck and Apollo are going to be bringing the sexy! ;)
Allison: Baltar/Gaeta -Where's my pen?frolicndetour on January 25th, 2009 09:22 pm (UTC)
1. I thought Ishay had murder in her eyes when she was doing that ultrasound! I've decided that's why Cottle lied to her about Nicky, because that's the only way to make sense of that retcon. ;p

I do like how sympathetic they're making Gaeta's choices, even though I think trusting Zarek with the future of the Fleet is an even dumber idea than trusting Baltar. At least he's consistent. I really hope he doesn't get killed! If anyone has been set up for a redemption arc it's him.

The Adama toothbrushing with heroic musical accompaniment was so WTF until I realized he was doing it to hide the alcohol on his breath. Oh Bill!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on January 25th, 2009 11:33 pm (UTC)
I don't think even that makes sense of the retcon! But I can let it go because I don't REALLY care about Cally and Chief that much. And if I have to watch Hotdog and Chief co-parenting I think I will tear my eyeballs out ...

even though I think trusting Zarek with the future of the Fleet is an even dumber idea than trusting Baltar. At least he's consistent. I really hope he doesn't get killed! If anyone has been set up for a redemption arc it's him.
Aww, I know. Being me, I of course wished that Gaeta had gone to LEE not Zarek. But I see why he wouldn't do that. He'd look at Lee and think Lee's far too compromised. Whereas actually Lee would be sympathetic but balanced. Gaeta is naive, yes, and I wouldn't trust Zarek an inch. But it was very believable writing that he would do this given what he's gone through so I am thrilled on that front.

The Adama toothbrushing with heroic musical accompaniment was so WTF until I realized he was doing it to hide the alcohol on his breath. Oh Bill!
I didn't even realise! lol And oh, gawd, since when has alcoholism become tragedo-heroic?!
Allison: Kara - :Dfrolicndetour on January 25th, 2009 11:39 pm (UTC)
I don't think even that makes sense of the retcon! But I can let it go because I don't REALLY care about Cally and Chief that much.

It's okay, I think we both care more than the writers do! I listened to the podcast, and in addition to being totally pleased with himself for pulling off this flawless retcon, Ron originally wanted to make FIGURSKI the Daddy. Speaking of tearing your eyeballs out...
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on January 26th, 2009 12:44 am (UTC)
OHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOES!!!!! Oh, RDM, you have so lost it! (And yeah, I'd heard about his smugness vis a vis the retconning. There are no words.)
fruitsome: l_archiecandlegrapefruitzzz on January 26th, 2009 12:01 am (UTC)
I nearly guessed it was Hotdog because I was frantically thinking of all the cast with speaking parts that might have met Cally.

A/R makes me yak, and not because of their age. It's a self-entitled autocratic drama-queen enabling lovefest and they just make each other worse. I think they should either declare a military dictatorship (as a pair, why not) or go away, because they can't claim to represent the people any more.

Heh, Lee still can't do public speaking. Heh heh. Tyrol's pronoun problems were also pretty amusing.

I fear for Gaeta though because Kara is this show's hero.

Oh he'll be shown to be wrong, because she's one of the Chosen Few characters who are always right. I just happen to like her a lot more than the other two. I'm surprised she doesn't get more stick for her cylon boyfriend.

What did you think of Baltar's church service? Is he just rambling off the top of his head now?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on January 26th, 2009 12:48 am (UTC)
. I think they should either declare a military dictatorship (as a pair, why not) or go away, because they can't claim to represent the people any more.
Definitely. I just want them to go away.

he'll be shown to be wrong, because she's one of the Chosen Few characters who are always right. I just happen to like her a lot more than the other two.
Absolutely! So do I. But I also know that she's in the Chosen Few and that annoys me on principle.

I'm surprised she doesn't get more stick for her cylon boyfriend.
Same. Even if noone but Gaeta has mentioned it before, I'm sure they're all THINKING it. But then it belongs in the box of things that make no sense like Tigh still serving...

What did you think of Baltar's church service? Is he just rambling off the top of his head now?
Mostly I was just sulking about the absence of Head!Six. I miss her. Gaius without her makes no sense, and yeah, I got the feeling he was just rambling aimlessly waiting for her to show back up again... I did rather love that he smoked casually while Chief and Hotdog punched each other. Gaius and I were as one in that moment. Bored now... ;)
m_a_r_i_k_s: fight side by sidem_a_r_i_k_s on January 26th, 2009 12:55 pm (UTC)
What I liked the most about this episode is that it finally addressed the problem of the majority of the people NOT accepting Cylons as new allies.

I'm still not completely clear why Lee is so pro-Cylon-Alliance now, but I really liked hearing about the practical reasons why an Alliance with the Cylons was a desirable outcome for logistic reasons. I hold out hope (HAHAHAHA FOOLISH) that he may eventually be able to bridge the gap between the rebels and the military led by Adama.

One of the scenes I had understanding problems with was the one in Adama’s quarters when they were discussing FTL upgrades. How could there not have been a more drastic reaction from Lee to Tyrol’s “price” that humans would have to pay - Cylons becoming citizens with full rights and liberties and the 13th seat in the Quorum? It amazes me. And did Adama actually consider giving them what they wanted + installing new Cylon devices after he’d been so paranoid about having networked systems on his ship?

The only explanation I’ve got for Lee’s lack of disagreement at that moment is that his actions might be based on realism pragmatism and pure calculation that Humans don’t have any chances against Cavil’s fleet that will soon catch up with them, so giving the enemies-allies what they want for technical advantage (or rather equality), given that their resources are running out, is actually better than risking a big chance of perishing with 30 000 people in the final battle…

As for his later decision to support his dad and the Alliance in Quorum, I can only come up with these reasons:
1. He was actually the one who forged the Alliance in the first place, so backing up from it given the stakes I mentioned above would be… strange, to say the least.
2. He’s the one who’s usually good at seeing the big picture, right? I think he might be angry with his father/president’s inaction but at the same time he doesn’t have the authority to do it his way and realizes that trying to compromise is the best he can do at this point.
3. He understands that Zarek’s “Deciding to turn to the Cylons for help is a way of preserving Adama-Roslin administration in power” is basically bullshit, the accent Zarek makes here is wrong and a lot of his motivation resides within his own thirst for power, and Lee can’t betray his father, however selfishly and blindly Bill might be acting, in favor of that kind of potential leader.

Adama and Roslin? You want “to live for yourself before you die” and you don’t care..? Fine! But first of all resign, both of you! Untie Lee’s hands, dammit!

On the one hand I’m happy for the shippers I know… On the other – if Lee and Kara got together in such a manner and forgot about their duties selfishly relishing in their own cocoon of happiness, being blind to all the other people suffering and by their inaction condemning those people to further losses and bloodshed – I would be pissed as hell at my couple and I would be really ashamed! Do you hear me, A/R shippers? I know, you probably don’t care as well…

And then there’s Kara/Gaeta scene that I really liked! She’s definitely the Kara I’ve known for years who needs to learn to apologize when she knows exactly when and how terribly wrong she was instead of turning the problem upside down and making it the victim’s fault.
And he’s definitely the guy who’s fed up with Adama family’s hypocrisy (including Lee’s attempts to find a compromise, which to Gaeta’s eyes is a hypocrisy anyway), a guy, who needs to stop blaming the Humans for his disillusionments and stop putting his trust into leaders like Baltar and Zarek only to be disappointed all over again in the end.

Also, Gaeta said he understands the consequences of mutiny may be a horrible bloodshed, and I don’t think he fully sees it. Zarek does, but then, for him it’s not the first time. As for Gaeta, he doesn’t get that what he’s doing may very well result in human population diminishing by 50 percent and then being exterminated by Cavil’s fleet that might find them in the middle of a civil war and use it to its advantage.


K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Presidentbop_radar on January 27th, 2009 07:22 am (UTC)
What I liked the most about this episode is that it finally addressed the problem of the majority of the people NOT accepting Cylons as new allies.
Absolutely! For that alone it gets a big 'tick' in the positive column from me.

One of the scenes I had understanding problems with was the one in Adama’s quarters when they were discussing FTL upgrades.
Sigh. I did too. I tried to go with it but it still sat strangely with me--these characters have just undergone such an extreme change in approach and I don't really see why. I do think the scene was meant to show us that the humans were choosing an alliance with Cylons for practical, logistical reasons. (Though I too expected a much bigger reaction to the Cylons-as-full-citizens issue.)

I think your reasoning re. Lee is very impressive. I just wish I believed the writers had put in as much effort. I suspect they didn't really think about him. I definitely think Lee would feel like Zarek was a bad choice, and regardless of how he feels about the Cylon Alliance he basically can't make any significant action himself without being insubordinate. This is why I feel so angry at Adama and Roslin--they need to move out of the way and let someone else take over. And I'd have far more confidence in Lee finding a balanced solution if an Alliance really is necessary.

if Lee and Kara got together in such a manner and forgot about their duties selfishly relishing in their own cocoon of happiness, being blind to all the other people suffering and by their inaction condemning those people to further losses and bloodshed
Oh, absolutely! It's double standards galore on this show.

I completely agree on the Kara/Gaeta scene and Gaeta generally. I at least found that plot engaging and the characters believable.

m_a_r_i_k_s: Тай - выборm_a_r_i_k_s on January 26th, 2009 12:56 pm (UTC)
I like that the mess they’re in makes me look at my favorite characters (Lee, Kara, Roslin…) through the prism of other character’s perception and realize how wrong or partly wrong they are and empathize with those I usually don’t empathize with, like Gaeta, Zarek (to a certain extent) and the majority of the fleet that doesn’t want a “Happily Ever After” with any kind of Cylons.

What I don’t like is that now LEE will have to deal with the consequences of his dad’s egotistic actions. But then that’s always been the case, hasn’t it?

What I also liked:

Cottle being snarky!
Baltar blaming his God for all, yet obviously deciding to be a perfect creation for two weeks longer! :D
Tyrol confusing sides!
Ishay giving deadly glances to Caprica and apologizing to Gaeta!

…has the show made ANY attempt to explain Caprica's attraction to Tigh?

No it hasn’t, but then I haven’t seen any genuine attraction to Tigh there, only her fascination with her unborn child! She’s been dreaming about becoming a mother since S1 and now she’s just making her dream come true using him because Baltar didn’t give her what she always wanted. And sure enough, she needs a father figure – it doesn’t mean she loves Tigh :)

And I completely agree about Tyrol/Cally/HotDog “clever” plot device, I just don’t seem to care about it that much.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Sixbop_radar on January 27th, 2009 07:26 am (UTC)
I like that the mess they’re in makes me look at my favorite characters (Lee, Kara, Roslin…) through the prism of other character’s perception and realize how wrong or partly wrong they are and empathize with those I usually don’t empathize with, like Gaeta, Zarek (to a certain extent) and the majority of the fleet that doesn’t want a “Happily Ever After” with any kind of Cylons.
This holds true for me as well, definitely! I think that's why I was pleasantly surprised with this episode. The old ensemble cast feeling was back and I could see different character perspectives at once, in tension with each other.

What I don’t like is that now LEE will have to deal with the consequences of his dad’s egotistic actions. But then that’s always been the case, hasn’t it?
Heh. Yeah, he really will, and yes, always the way. Sigh.

now she’s just making her dream come true using him because Baltar didn’t give her what she always wanted. And sure enough, she needs a father figure – it doesn’t mean she loves Tigh :)
Good thinking! Though I'm not sure why she felt the need to draw Tigh into that experience with her 'look at our baby!' comments. So can we assume she was just trying to get a baby on Tigh all along? Did she know he was a Cylon?! I'm so confused!
m_a_r_i_k_s: kissingm_a_r_i_k_s on January 27th, 2009 11:01 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure why she felt the need to draw Tigh into that experience with her 'look at our baby!' comments. So can we assume she was just trying to get a baby on Tigh all along? Did she know he was a Cylon?! I'm so confused!

I don't think she new he was a Cylon, I think for her he was just the one who was coming to visit her in her cell on a daily basis/giving her attention when Baltar forgot about her or chose to ignore her completely - that's why she got attracted to Tigh, and not because she actually fell in love with him. And now she's happy about the baby because it's been her dream to become a mother for so long! And I guess she might be grateful to Tigh for giving her this baby. So her behavior makes sense to me.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Sixbop_radar on January 28th, 2009 12:33 am (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation! I was baffled because I didn't see Caprica as that needy. I guess my personal reading is that she's suffering a bit of Stockholm Syndrome, but it's good to hear from someone for whom the plot makes a bit more sense!
is that how they do it in the pros?: *gen - a big fuck youantismiles on January 27th, 2009 04:12 am (UTC)
So... I sat down and watched the episode. I hated it. I absolutely, positively, with the power of twenty thousand 50-kilo nukes, hated it. The only things that I enjoyed this episode were Ishay and Cottle, Lee, Zarek, and most of all Gaeta. Everyone else I want to be airlocked as of yesterday.

Dear gods, it's episodes like these that remind me why I detest RDM and this show. They would never have pulled this bullshit in the first season. Damn the writers to hell.

*is pissed off beyond belief*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on January 27th, 2009 07:13 am (UTC)
See, that's how last week's episode made me feel. Perhaps I've just grown more used to the horror since last week? The initial 'shock' of recalling how lameass the show is these days has begun to wear off and I am clutching at straws (and trying to stay sane!).
hazy: doorways by mehazyshade on January 28th, 2009 11:13 pm (UTC)
Gaeta is kind of my new hero too. ;) It was definitely refreshing to see one of the characters actually questioning the alliance with the Cylons. There was never enough debate or disagreement about that. I'm glad they showed us the Quorum and the fleet's disquiet with Adama & Roslin's decisions and I hope we get to see more of the fall-out.

re: Adama's bathroom routine
Oh Bop, I was just waiting for him to smash the poor mirror again. :p
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama hugbop_radar on January 29th, 2009 09:48 am (UTC)
I used to date someone who called himself a 'smasher' because he got all ragey and broke things a lot. Adama reminds me of him. The behaviour pattern was met with the same 'deeply unimpressed' response from me, and hence the 'used to date'. :D

I hope we get more of the fallout and the debate and disagreement about the Alliance too. Then I wouldn't have to jump up and down about it so much myself! :)