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29 April 2009 @ 07:05 pm
She's not his frakking angel  
This post is about the finale of Battlestar Galactica. Don't click if you haven't seen it, and even if you have, don't click unless you want a rant.

So Jamie Bamber gave an interview at Jules Vernes about Lee's emotions in the finale. At first I was hesitant to watch this because I know his view of the finale is very glowing, and that I'd find it hard to swallow. Then I read that he referred to Lee having an epiphany about Kara being his 'angel' and I found that very hard to take. daybreak777 and antismiles wanted to know why.

I found I actually did have quite a bit to say on this subject, but first I thought I should really watch the interview myself. Which I did.

The thing I liked best about the interview was Jamie saying that Lee was selfish in thinking that Kara came back as 'his' angel. DUH. That was the only part where I felt like what he was describing was in character for Lee. The self-centredness, yeah, that bit I can buy... (though it shows a Lee who hasn't grown emotionally in four seasons). This other business about having a spiritual epiphany? o.O It is entirely possible that my atheist goggles are blinding me here but I know that I, and many other fans, found it hard to buy that Lee was 'at peace' at the end, that the disappearance of Kara was a moment he reflected on in a meditative way. Yes, I know that's what they showed us (overlaid with the Pigeon Sledgehammer) but I just found it ridiculous. I love Jamie, but a bigger load of bullshit, I have rarely heard.

But my real problem with this 'Kara is Lee's angel' line, is not what it means for Lee--I can see Lee making sense of her that way in time (though not in the immediate moment of departure, for frak's sake!)--but what it means for Kara.

I never wrote my list of issues with the finale, but way up that list was Kara disappearing. There are many reasons why this was an appallingly abrupt ending for Kara's character, but the hardest part for me to swallow was the implication that Kara had been an angel, working for 'destiny' for the whole of Season 4. I think it was indigo419 (forgive me if I got that wrong) who summed up the most implausible part of that equation: why, then, was Kara shown as having a very real and vivid internal life in Season 4? She carried on relationships, she appeared troubled by old issues (like her relationship with Adama), she experienced existential crises (finding her own body)... all of which makes little sense if she was just an angel. I realise many people have posted in far more detail about why this was so implausible--I'm just summarising here.

So on the one hand we have the implausibility. It's doubly implausible that Kara was Lee's angel. Even Jamie points out that she affected a lot of other people. The arc of Season 4 was about Kara bringing the whole of mankind to their 'end' (and what an ignoble end it was) so Lee was really just a speck on the dashboard of Kara's destiny. That was just Lee's ego wanking it how he wanted it.

But other than the implausability, why is being an angel a reductive end for Kara's character? Isn't the idea of being an angel romantic? Well, perhaps... to some people. But for me, and I know these things are personal, that's not what I fell for in Kara. I didn't fall for a one-dimensional icon, or a beacon of light, or a figurehead. I fell for a flawed, complex character who struggled with her own identity and in her relationships with other. From the very beginning there was always the danger that Kara be lost behind the persona of 'Starbuck'. In fandom too, Kara was often the subject of hagiographic treatment (she's a wronged saint, a martyr, can do no wrong...). I'd swing the other way and say, Kara was a cruel, dangerous self-absorbed lunatic. IMHO. But then Lee was one too. And I loved them that way.

I also loved them growing as individuals. Being an 'Angel' implies a fixed state, following an agenda bigger than yourself. That's last part is definitely something we saw Kara struggle with in season 4, but SHE FRAKKING HATED IT. She hated being Destiny's Pawn. Wouldn't you? And yet the finale wanted us to swallow an ending that saw her disappear when her 'mission' was complete. So Kara the person doesn't really matter, only her objective does? Gre-at. Unfortunately I signed up for the character journeys.

The other reason I hate the angel-ification of Kara is what it means in a ship sense. I believe there was ALWAYS a part of Lee that saw Kara as 'more' than just Kara, that attributed to her all sorts of powerful, barely articulated meaning. You can see it in his eyes when she returns with the Arrow of Apollo, or when she saves him in the mini-series. It's certainly part of his love for her, but is it the totality? Does Lee just worship Kara? Or does he see the real person? That was a very big issue for me in much of seasons 1 and 2, and even beyond. I had fairly heated arguments with supacat on this subject, since she felt that from Kara's point of view, she felt that Lee didn't really know or love the 'real', messy, flawed Kara. When Lee lashed out in anger at her, she saw that as his lack of acceptance of who she really was. I guess you could say the argument was that Lee was a 'fair weather' lover.

I never saw it that way. I believe the idolisation was only part of the make-up of Lee's love for Kara. It wasn't growth for Lee to feel like Kara was his 'lucky star' or his 'angel'. But I did see growth in the ship, I saw Lee struggle to deal with the real Kara over the years, and thereby show his commitment to her. It wasn't easy loving Kara Thrace, but he did love her, and he kept coming back to her. Even after they'd closed the door on a romantic relationship, in Maelstrom he desperately wanted to give her what she needed to overcome her fear. Or, to give another example, many fans liked the scene in which Lee said it 'didn't matter' after Gaius confirmed that Kara was dead. (Wow, that scene makes NO sense if Kara's an angel, does it?) Many commented on his acceptance of her even while she was struggling with her identity. Lee loved the totality of Kara, and Kara in all forms. He was even able to love her after death.

That's the only romantic spin I can put on Season 4, but it hardly comes as a surprise. Of course he loved her after death. But I think it's a lot easier to love a memory than a real, living, fighting, argumentative bitch of a woman. I guess I wanted to see him love the latter, and I'll never get over that.

Kara was always more than Lee's angel. Kara herself would laugh herself silly if she heard Lee call her that. Lee would probably hang his head and smile sheepishly because even HE knows it's a bit far-fetched. But then I guess being alone on a planet inhabited only by cavemen would send ANYone a bit loopy. *eyeroll*

Yeah, I know the whole of BSG fandom has probably talked the finale to death by now but I wasn't here and apparently I'm still ragey.
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m_a_r_i_k_s: to the heavensm_a_r_i_k_s on April 29th, 2009 11:41 am (UTC)
but to have Lee only ever have loved that 'angel' Kara... It makes me so angry because I think there was always the danger that Lee put Kara on a pedestal

Exactly. For many non Lee fans it often seemed like his feelings were bordering with worship and that he loved only the ideal Kara he created in his mind and rejected her screwed up side, had a tendency to put her failures in her face and make her feel unworthy and not measuring up to his expectations. So to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace, which is bullshit because we all know that Kara loved the real Lee and not just Apollo, Commander Adama or the President (unlike Dee) and Lee loved and respected the real Kara as a whole, unlike Anders. His growth after her death and return was among other things about him allowing her to make mistakes and still loving her and supporting. They both showed each other some sides of one another that they never opened to anyone else in their lives and they also took a path of learning to accept them without judgment.

I’ m never going to be ok with the fact that Lee was “at peace” when she left him and vise-versa. He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake! So is it an adequate reaction for a man who’s desperately in love with her and has been thinking she’d come back in real flesh for many months to just have some sort of internal reconciliation, accept it and move on, go climbing the mountains?!! Bullshit. That’s not the Lee I know and love. Just as it’s not Kara who disappeared so abruptly without even saying goodbye. It’s a fucking joke, because never in a million years will I believe that she would be so damn cruel to him! Not when she’s been feeling tremendous guilt and regret for what she did to Lee on New Caprica since Maelstrom on (even more so in Six Of One)! Not when she’s been acting like she didn’t believe he could ever forgive her or give her another chance, which she clearly craved for.

And let’s not mention the absurdity of the fact that Lee decided to generally stay away from Kara after she returned and that she kept her distance from him too. I’ll never buy it. I mean, obviously the only reason they stayed apart from each other was the writers damn disloyalty to the characters.

I'd swing the other way and say, Kara was a cruel, dangerous self-absorbed lunatic. IMHO. But then Lee was one too. And I loved them that way.

*Nods* You just keep writing and I’ll be putting “ITA” below every couple of sentences, ok?

Being an 'Angel' implies a fixed state, following an agenda bigger than yourself. That's last part is definitely something we saw Kara struggle with in season 4, but SHE FRAKKING HATED IT.

Hell. She even told Baltar the only thing she was sure of was that she wasn’t a frakking angel. The girl abhorred the very idea… she’s been miserable since Leoben started to brainwash her about her destiny being bigger than herself.

I fucking despise RDM for what he did to these characters that I adore… He trapped Kara, the person of the strongest free will in some mythical form and left her with her fucking destiny that I’m supposed to believe soothed her pain and freed her soul, he reduced Lee to a frakwit of a leader who’s against all kinds of technology in a potentially lethally dangerous new world and puts forward an idea to spread out instead of sticking together, thus condemning all his people to becoming merely a part of genetic material. And I’m supposed to believe that that’s character growth and the Colonials struggles weren’t all in vain, that they actually made a difference?! *rage is back in town* :((((

I'm way too ranty. I wonder if I can ever get over this and find a way to enjoy the early seasons or at least think about the characters in my daily life without having a feeling like my heart's ripped out of my chest. *hugs*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on April 29th, 2009 12:05 pm (UTC)
to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace
Yeah, exactly. And while I know that Jamie was not meaning to reduce her to one thing--he made a point of explaining that Kara was many things to Lee--I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking. It's a really simplistic copout to me: instead of showing a real, complicacted messy individual, or actually tackling some--SHOCK!--science fiction to explain how Kara could have appeared to die and then return, they get to handwave everything we saw of Kara from Maelstrom on as her in angel form.

He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake!
RIGHT. It's not like he had known but had been struggling to come to terms with it and then finally managed to do so. In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation in 4.18, he was so in love with Kara that he was just happy to have her in any form, he really didn't want to engage with the issue of her being 'dead'. He said it wasn't important. Well, it WAS when she DISAPPEARED!

Just as it’s not Kara who disappeared so abruptly without even saying goodbye.
I haven't really thought of it from that side... I guess the only way it makes any sense to me is if Kara had no choice in the matter, and that totally guts me. But I don't believe she actively did it to him, I really don't. I believe that if she knew she was leaving, she would have had more to say to him.

he even told Baltar the only thing she was sure of was that she wasn’t a frakking angel. The girl abhorred the very idea… she’s been miserable since Leoben started to brainwash her about her destiny being bigger than herself.
I know!! It's absolutely TERRIBLE. When I heard that Jamie said that I felt sick for Kara all over again. I know he was speaking purely from Lee's character journey... but that's half the problem. The character journeys CONFLICT. Surely even Katee thinks that Kara was more than just a damn angel in season 4? Hell, she was still given so much difficult material to deal with. And Kara was at war with the idea constantly. So she was basically tortured after death? Trapped in a consciousness she'd rather not inhabit? That's TERRIBLE. And I don't think the one thing she wanted was to be remembered... I have never seen anything in Kara's character that wanted to be publicly acknowledged as a hero, remembered. She was always all 'frak you' about her image. And in terms of being remembered by Lee, well I don't buy that she'd ever be in doubt about that (for better or worse!).

he reduced Lee to a frakwit of a leader who’s against all kinds of technology in a potentially lethally dangerous new world and puts forward an idea to spread out instead of sticking together, thus condemning all his people to becoming merely a part of genetic material.
Ahh, you thereby sum up the crux of my Number One issue with the finale. I think I saw the cracks for this in the pompous and hand-wave-y speech they had Lee give in 4.10 when they hooked up with the Cylons. Yes, everyone pointed out that they just had to move the plot forward and there wasn't time for details, but I think it opened the door to having Lee-as-leader voice whatever-the-fuck-bullshit RDM felt like spewing out from then on. Who knows if he'd even thought up the finale solution yet? Was the idea to spread out planned from the start? Really?! REALLY?!

Jamie's a well-read man. He's read 'Civilisation or 'Guns, Germs and Steel' (I forget which but either would do in terms of getting a clue). Could HE not say something to RDM about this nonsense?! Someone seriously needs to put the hard questions about survival to RDM. If he was going to play it as 'the Colonials all get absorbed into New Earth's genetic landscape' then he should have at least painted that as a DARK ending, not a frakking pastoral waltz through the meadows...

OMG I WILL NEVER STOP BEING ANGRY!
(no subject) - m_a_r_i_k_s on April 30th, 2009 07:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 3rd, 2009 12:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - m_a_r_i_k_s on April 30th, 2009 07:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 3rd, 2009 01:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samstareagle on May 7th, 2009 05:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 11th, 2009 02:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samstareagle on May 11th, 2009 11:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Call Me OneTrack: seriously?callmeonetrack on April 29th, 2009 01:43 pm (UTC)
Dudes. WORD. Just word to all of this (your post and Mariks' response)

I get that JB would take this spin to try to make it okay for himself as someone who invested so much in this relationship playing Lee. But...just But.

And to further infuriate you, that scene in Islanded? RDM said it was supposed to clue us in to the idea that Lee knew she wasn't real and had accepted it. Apparently we were supposed to pay attention to the "It doesn't matter" and not the "YOU'RE HERE" part. Total bull.

And apparently Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.

There are so very many things wrong with this finale that you could spend your whole life meta-posting about it and never run out of issues.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on April 29th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)
RDM said it was supposed to clue us in to the idea that Lee knew she wasn't real and had accepted it.
Well that worked didn't it? RDM needs to get a fucking clue and realise that if a scene is SUPPOSED to do something then it needs to be EXECUTED that way. I don't know anyone who took from that scene 'oh, Lee's totally cool with Kara being non-corporeal now and will be fine if she just floats away'. What part of that scene acknowledged that Lee knew Kara might DISAPPEAR?! Swing it the other way and finding out someone is alive after death but being ok with that might mean that you thought they were, oh I don't know, IMMORTAL or something. Not exactly a stretch!

Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.
OMG, if I'd known that I would have written the post about that, not Jamie's understandable throwaway line about Kara's meaning to Lee... (which is less offensive in the scheme of things, but just part of a continuum of reducing the complex character of Kara to a one-dimensional cut out).

There are so very many things wrong with this finale that you could spend your whole life meta-posting about it and never run out of issues.
It's so true, which is kind of why I've resisted thus far. But this Kara-as-Angel bullshit really riles me.
indigo419: Lee wince Scar syliaindigo419 on April 29th, 2009 02:36 pm (UTC)
why, then, was Kara shown as having a very real and vivid internal life in Season 4?

I'm with you - still angry about the end, and angriest about Kara's fate. I don't understand how Ron could go so wrong with his main characters - the first ones he'd ever conceived for the series, if we are to believe his own account. How sloppy.

I understand running out of time, and biting more than one can chew, but this was choking on a colossal scale. He had two years to write this resolution. I can't believe he couldn't come up with something at least half as good as any of the fans who wrote their own version of the characters' endings. He could've swallowed his pride and asked someone on his writing staff to help craft this, for crying out loud! This was worse than bad. This was self-contradictory and puerile and - even though I don't believe a show should cater to its fans - the equivalent of spitting in fans' eyes. We hoped for an epic conclusion, and instead we got epic fail.

Whether Ron intended it this way or not, I take Kara's end to mean: I didn't care enough to pay attention to the story we were telling all along. I didn't care enough to think this through and write an ending that went beyond connecting the dots (yeah, anyone can do that in a half-assed manner) to being consistent and satisfying and, y'know, complex. In the beginning RDM prided himself on writing a show that didn't tell you what to think. I don't know why he thought a reductive, simplistic ending would be satisfying to this audience. It was insulting to everyone's intelligence to be told, basically, "oh, just squint a little bit and pretend it all works. The mytharcs you cared about? We never figured out what they were about." I'm being a little over-dramatic now (and I can't remember where I first read this analogy or what it was in reference to), but this is worse than finding out the tooth fairy doesn't exist. This is him unmasking the tooth fairy, and taking back all the money she left you and the rest of your piggy bank besides.

/bitter /ragey <-- (except it's not actually the end because I can't get over my rage. You know what I'm truly mad about? I used to drift off to sleep most nights conjuring up pilot!stories. Just making up romantic moments between Kara and Lee, that put me in a happy place before sleep... and sometimes the stories even turned into fic. I can't do that any more, because thinking of pilots makes me angry. I want that back. I want them back.)
dianora: bsg lee/pigeondianora2 on April 29th, 2009 05:13 pm (UTC)
IAWTC.
(no subject) - indigo419 on April 30th, 2009 03:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - bop_radar on April 29th, 2009 11:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - bop_radar on May 3rd, 2009 01:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
dianora: bsg dear rdmdianora2 on April 29th, 2009 05:12 pm (UTC)
Don't worry, even those of us who HAVE talked the finale to death are still ragey. *g*

Anyway, I agree with all this. Jamie is just very fond of reading deep meaning into things -- must be that comp lit degree. ;) I do think, though, that when he said Kara was "his angel," that he wasn't really implying that she was his and ONLY his. It's more an acknowledgment of who she is, an angel, and that in his heart she is his. Kind of like if I were to say "He's my Lee," he's not really MY Lee, but....you know what I mean. Maybe. LOL.

But yeah, the finale is still a steaming pile of crap.
The First Evil: Lee - Awesome - Airingsasta77 on April 29th, 2009 11:52 pm (UTC)
I do think, though, that when he said Kara was "his angel," that he wasn't really implying that she was his and ONLY his. It's more an acknowledgment of who she is, an angel, and that in his heart she is his. Kind of like if I were to say "He's my Lee," he's not really MY Lee, but....you know what I mean.

As I said to Bop, I wish Jamie and Ron and everyone else wouldn't use the term angel because I feel it's overly simplistic, but what you said, yes, I totally agree and get it. :)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 29th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dianora2 on April 30th, 2009 03:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 30th, 2009 04:59 am (UTC) (Expand)
Blue: BSG - This Never Happenedblue_meridian on April 29th, 2009 08:37 pm (UTC)
Finale? What finale? THERE WAS NO FINALE, GOT IT?! *denial*

Speaking of, something you might enjoy if you haven't seen it: a Kara vid circa s4, minus the glowy bits, that is beautiful and haunting.

Follow Me Into the Darkness by threezerotwo
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara destinybop_radar on April 29th, 2009 11:57 pm (UTC)
Ohh, I have downloaded that but am afraid of getting triggered into another rage fit. :D I'm not so good with the denial, as you can see... I'll work on it.
(no subject) - blue_meridian on April 30th, 2009 12:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on April 30th, 2009 01:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - blue_meridian on April 30th, 2009 01:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Lee/Kara - starlit_trailasta77 on April 29th, 2009 11:49 pm (UTC)
I can see Lee being at peace at the end, but I feel the series did an inadequate job of getting Lee to that point. Lee let go of a lot of baggage in Season 4 (disclaimer: no, I don't see Kara as being baggage, but I do think he stopped obsessing over the possibility of he and Kara being anything more than what they were to each other) and once they reached earth I saw him, for better or worse, living in the moment and seeing a world of possibility open to him. I have to say I am a bit disappointed that I have to make an intuitive leap when it comes to Lee in the finale when more time could have been dedicated to his arc, Kara's arc, Laura's arc, instead of wasting time on subplots that went nowhere, like Caprica's pregnancy.

I really don't feel that Kara was just an angel. I think that's an overly simplistic term to use and I wish Ron, Jamie, and others hadn't used it since, yes, there is an implication that Kara was merely a pawn of ''God' and destiny and I don't see that. I don't have a problem with Kara dying and being brought back from the dead, but I wish we had gotten some explanation as to why. Kara and the audience have been aware she's had a special destiny since Season 1. I found it interesting to watch her, as well as others, both embrace their destiny and rail against it and see how free will works itself into all of it.

Kara's destiny was to lead humanity to it's end, but I'm not seeing why she had to die and resurrect to do it. Did she have to resurrect in order to speak to her father? To hear the music? To make a connection with the hybrid? I can deal with all of that, but none of that was made clear. If I have a problem with the finale it's not so much how it ended, but how we got there with a lack of foundation or explanation for choices that were made.

It's certainly part of his love for her, but is it the totality? Does Lee just worship Kara? Or does he see the real person? That was a very big issue for me in much of seasons 1 and 2, and even beyond. I had fairly heated arguments with supacat on this subject, since she felt that from Kara's point of view, she felt that Lee didn't really know or love the 'real', messy, flawed Kara. When Lee lashed out in anger at her, she saw that as his lack of acceptance of who she really was. I guess you could say the argument was that Lee was a 'fair weather' lover.

Lee Adama could be a real ass. He too often expected people to live up to his sometimes impossibly high standards and there were times Kara failed to be the person he, not wanted her to be, but had the potential to be. Part of that was born of selfishness, but part of that was also a genuine concern at the damage he saw her doing to herself, her attempts to sabotage herself, because she viewed herself as unworthy, broken, destructive, and an all around screw-up. Through the years, Lee saw the best of Kara Thrace. He saw her with Zak and saw her happy. I think he wanted to see that person again (preferably while in a relationship with him) and when she failed to be the person he believed she could be he would get angry and lash out. He knew that was a failing on his part and not hers.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on April 30th, 2009 12:05 am (UTC)
I feel the series did an inadequate job of getting Lee to that point
ABSOLUTELY. I wanted that journey--I really wanted to see Lee get some peace at the end, but they didn't write a journey I found convincing.

I have to say I am a bit disappointed that I have to make an intuitive leap when it comes to Lee in the finale
I'm more than a bit disappointed. I'm livid. My reactions are OTT--I've never felt this strongly about a TV series or character before and it's a little bit insane, I admit it, but that's how it is for me. I hope I'm never like this again about anything. I had to make intuitive leaps about Lee throughout season 4, and I had to swallow a bunch of shit like 4.10 where he suddenly got onboard with Kara's mystical bullshit. I didn't want to have to swallow more in the finale.

I wish Ron, Jamie, and others hadn't used it since, yes, there is an implication that Kara was merely a pawn of ''God' and destiny
Yes, I wish they'd stop saying it. I don't blame Jamie, he's just giving the party line his own twist. I blame Ron. Ron and his stupid Catholicism that makes him think angels are cool.

and see how free will works itself into all of it.
Yeah, that was interesting. Until they threw free will out the airlock.

? I can deal with all of that, but none of that was made clear. If I have a problem with the finale it's not so much how it ended, but how we got there with a lack of foundation or explanation for choices that were made.
That's a good way of putting it and is certainly a large part of my problem with it. (But I will NEVER, NEVER buy the stupid pastoral-romantic bullshit that saw Lee think it was a good idea to jetison all technology and then split up across the planet so they could all be raped by Cro-Magnon men with absolutely no defence and then breed feral pre-evolved babies.)
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on April 30th, 2009 01:34 am (UTC)
I don't feel like there's anything about the "angel" crap that is supposed to be about Kara herself
Yeah, and I get why Jamie's not focussed on that (he wasn't playing Kara!) but I don't get how RDM and the ENTIRE WRITING TEAM could have forgotten about Kara as a character.

What was interesting about the whole idea of destiny--and I admit I did find it interesting for much of the series--was that these were ordinary, flawed individuals struggling with it and against it.
Yeah, like you I did find it interesting--but the part I found interesting was the struggle and the ambiguity. The finale was sooooooooooooooo reductive. I can't think of a better word than that, I keep coming back to it. And I totally agree that Kara's dehumanisation is part of a larger canvas of the complete obliteration of the female characters on the show.

RDM has ALWAYS fanwanked his own material. I've never liked Jane Espenson. I generally like completely different writers to most of fandom and she's a prime example. The woman is an idiot. I will avoid her like the plague. The only good thing I can think of about BSG is that it's given me a masterlist of writers to avoid.
canadiangirl_86 on April 30th, 2009 01:03 am (UTC)
Boppy, I agree with you completely, but I gotta take what I can get at this point. As ridiculously mystical as Kara being an "angel" is and as much as I wish I could just discard the finale and its canon....that's what the show gave us. I am latching on to every positive K/L comment being made right now. Sad but true.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee separationbop_radar on April 30th, 2009 01:36 am (UTC)
Just be glad you can. If I had access to some sort of emotional comfort or release I'd be snatching it too. But instead everything about the show triggers rage or tears in me. I envy those of you who can find a silver lining. As always.
thrace_adama: K/L hug res shipthrace_adama on April 30th, 2009 01:58 am (UTC)
I'm of two minds about JB's latest comments. My initial reaction was just sheer appreciation for (and relief at, tbh) his being as much of a shipper as ever and saying such beautiful things about pilots and their relationship overall. And I do still feel that he was just making the most of the material he got and doing his job--he *had* to make it work for himself and for his character in order to act it (even if I personally don't agree with his being able to see Lee making the decisions he made in the finale or reacting the way he did to Kara's disappearance). I also still incredibly garateful to him for finding what beauty he could and giving us the tiniest (*tiniest*) bit of comfort with those words--after all, he could have fed us what RDM was trying to push in the finale: that Kara and Lee were just obsessed with each other (completely ignoring their deep friendship and 4-season journey!)/doomed from the start/stuck on the table/wtf-ever. So I think I'm taking what I can and trying to take solace in the fact that at least one person involved with the show still recognizes and appreciates how much the two really did mean to each other *throughout the series*.

On the other hand, I do totally agree with absolutely every point you make here. I *hate* that Kara was reduced to some tool of destiny and am sad that JB has pretty much ignored this side of the issue in order to make it work for him and his character. Not that he should have to give himself the headache of trying to make that work too, but yeah, it's stuff like this that shows *once again* how screwed up it all was and how, really, nothing anyone says about the finale is going to make it okay. But I sure love the Bambino for trying (and for making me feel better about the K/L ship as a whole after KS' latest comments made me sad)! :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee's farewellbop_radar on April 30th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC)
I agree that Jamie had to make it work for himself. I understand that. I'm just still angry that that's what he was given to work with... and I do find it admirable that Jamie can find beauty in it. I just wish I could see that myself, and I don't personally feel very comforted. Though it's fabulous that fans like yourself can feel so! I guess I just would rather have heard Jamie talk about what Kara meant to Lee as a living, breathing human being... like if he'd mentioned that Lee had gone through a grieving process when Kara died. And if the show had actually shown Lee *knowing* or at the very least guessing that her return was impermanent. Sigh,

I wasn't around for Katee's latest round of comments, I think. Let me guess? Kara loves Sam forever, blah blah blah? Yeah, whatevs. We all know Katee took over the show with her massive hard on for Michael. I'm not really interested in hearing anything she has to say. Ron seemed perfectly happy to climb on board with her ideas and it's Ron I blame for his fickleness to his central characters and central relationship.
(no subject) - thrace_adama on May 2nd, 2009 05:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 3rd, 2009 01:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thrace_adama on May 3rd, 2009 04:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on May 4th, 2009 06:59 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jonathan Toews does not want a sandwich.svmadelyn on April 30th, 2009 02:27 am (UTC)
I'm someone who actually really enjoyed Season Four, and even I thought that finale was a travesty. So, well. YES. *points to your post*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee armsbop_radar on April 30th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC)
Thanks! :) The finale was just... *shudders*
hazy: BSG: K/L shelter by mehazyshade on April 30th, 2009 10:05 pm (UTC)
Word. And I'm still bloody angry, too. :(
Bless Jamie for trying to make sense of it all from the Lee POV and being a big ol' romantic, but everytime I hear the Kara-as-angel thing I want to kick something.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on May 3rd, 2009 01:04 am (UTC)
Same. :( It's good to hear you feel the same because I feel we have a very similar outlook on pilots. Damn, I miss them.
samstareaglesamstareagle on May 7th, 2009 02:32 am (UTC)
The more time I have to think about S4 (ALL of S4, not just the finale)...the more annoyed I get. The less it resembles the same show as the earlier seasons, and the more absurd the actions the storylines and actions of the characters become... My conclusion... S4 was a horrible REMAKE of BSG. It's the Galactica 1980 to TOS Galactica. It wasn't even the same show!!! So OF COURSE the finale would crash and burn...it wasn't even the same story anymore!!!

Look back at the character development for EVERYBODY in S3, from Lee to Sam to Racetrack...now look for that same development is S4. It ISN'T there. All the characters are flung backwards by the writers to act like cardboard cutouts of versions of themselves from earlier episodes for expedience so the writers could pull lousy storylines and try and dupe the viewers by expecting them to accept crazy plots just because Kara was acting all Kick-A S1 again. That is an insult to dramatic form, and totally unworthy of being considered the same show.

Don't get me wrong...I LOVE the actors and what they did with their characters, and I understand that their feeling about the show being over could have easily distracted them from what was going on in the story...but the producers and writers have NO excuse for this. This was their responsibility and they frakked it up beyond belief.

And I DID like certain things from S4 and even the finale...but they would have been sooo much better if they'd had a good story to put them in. As it is, they're just loose moments for us ficcers to work into what I'm sure will be an infinitely reimagined fic verse continuation that we'll give back to the characters that were robbed of their dignity in the final season.

And we won't even go on strike to do it...:P
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic foreverbop_radar on May 11th, 2009 01:55 pm (UTC)
The more time I have to think about S4 (ALL of S4, not just the finale)...the more annoyed I get.
Hee. A familiar feeling, trust me. And it IS all of season 4. I know a lot of people only had their epiphany in the finale, and that's understandable if they were clinging on desperately to hope--a human thing to do, but really this whole season was a DISASTER.

All the characters are flung backwards by the writers to act like cardboard cutouts of versions of themselves
*nods* I absolutely agree. It wasn't that what was shown was totally never in their characters--well... except in a few instances--but it was such a pared down, one-dimensional version of that. Or it was all over the place and incoherent. I think Katee, for instance, tried to bring layers to individual scenes she played but her scenes don't make coherent sense viewed back to back--her characterisation jumps around all over the place.

the producers and writers have NO excuse for this
I feel that very strongly. The actors should feel proud--they all did an outstanding job, I couldn't fault any of them. But he producers seriously lost it.

an infinitely reimagined fic verse continuation that we'll give back to the characters that were robbed of their dignity in the final season.
I really hope that is true. I feel strongly that the material should be reclaimed by the fandom, who will do a damn sight better with it than the show did. I wish I could contribute to that but what creativity I have doesn't flow that way, I'm afraid. I shall have to settle for reading!