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24 July 2009 @ 05:20 pm
Kind of...  
... loving Russell. Does this mean 'Go and watch Supernatural!' is now an insult?! :D :D :D I could say it with such a lovely sneer. Really! ;)

I also rather like this quote (re. claiming Ianto's death was anti-gay): 'It's rather like children picking up nursery blocks and waving them in the air but having no idea what it entails.'

Ah yes. How often I have felt that way in fandom.

I do like it when show creators stick to their guns and tell a good story despite a screaming fanbase calling for their blood. That said, there is danger in arrogantly assuming your fanbase is always wrong. Russell's an interesting study to me now, since he has at times been everything I hate in a creator (self-indulgent, letting his own issues leak through into the show), and at other times (i.e. Children of Earth) has been so hard-core true to the story he's telling and the characters he writes. Let's hope the arrogance displayed in that article continues to be used for the Power of Good! ;)
 
 
 
Nickyobsessive24 on July 24th, 2009 07:59 am (UTC)
RTD is into the Wincest! \o/
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: as snapped by moibop_radar on July 24th, 2009 08:20 am (UTC)
How could he not be? ;)
supacat: if history has taught us anythingsupacat on July 24th, 2009 07:59 am (UTC)
'It's rather like children picking up nursery blocks and waving them in the air but having no idea what it entails.'

LOVE.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Missing Al and Milesbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 08:20 am (UTC)
:D Did that make you feel better?
Diana: Human -- Jack Harknessbutterfly on July 24th, 2009 08:22 am (UTC)
Does this mean 'Go and watch Supernatural!' is now an insult?! :D :D :D I could say it with such a lovely sneer. Really! ;)

That really is kinda how it came off to me. It sounds like he's saying, "Well, if you were only watching the show for the pretty (gay) boys, go off to watch a show that will cater to those needs."

I think, with any kind of strong-willed artist, you run the risk of arrogance. And that only becomes a problem when they stop delivering the goods.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Batgirlbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 09:00 am (UTC)
Yeah, exactly--arrogance can be awesome as long as it produces good results! When it doesn't.... oooohh boy.
Jayne L.: dwwavesserrico on July 24th, 2009 08:26 am (UTC)
He has his drawbacks as a showrunner, but I kind of worship him a bit right now for that interview. Or, you know, worship him A LOT. Whatever. *g*

"Those boys are *beautiful*." Yes, RTD. Yes they are. :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Empire Records leanbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 09:01 am (UTC)
Yeah, I worship him too. ;) I figure I've got to enjoy the novelty of AGREEing with a showrunner's arrogance for once.
Cris: Torchwood - Jack/Ianto - season 3 promoduskwillow on July 24th, 2009 08:43 am (UTC)
God, he pisses me off so much!
This type of response is the same as when asked what they think about fans not liking how they dealt with Clexana triangle in season 7 AlMiles said that "Because people are so invested in these characters. That is the great thing about Smallville fans — they are passionate about the show and the characters. Miles and I take so much crap online for various decisions, and the fact is it makes me smile, because people still care." They just don't get it.

I'm among people who are pissed off, and I dropped the show in an instant, and RTD, and a lot of people, seem to assume it's just because Ianto was killed off. That's just top of the ice berg, after two regulars were already killed off last year.
The main problem is that they took a quirky, unique show that for two years was about characters, and had the story fitted to tell those characters' story, and turned it into a general show, where characters were shaped and twisted to force a story he wanted to tell. It could have been any show. It would have worked brilliantly as Spooks, if you just replace aliens with terrorists. Everything that made Torchwood the show many of us loved was simply ignored or destroyed, and then they end up killing yet another regular, and to add insult he was killed off as some random RedShirt, in a scene that made both him and Jack look like morons because they had no plan going in.
I don't care about how good the story was when it comes at the expense of the show I loved for two seasons. And he just doesn't get it at all:
In many ways, Torchwood was designed as a digital weapon. It’s kind of multi-purpose, multi-adaptable, shape-shifting weapon that can become anything.

Not really. You can't take something that was established as one thing for two years, decide you don't like it the way it is and completely deconstruct it - and then get huffy when people who watched it for those two years get angry.
So I'll take the first two seasons, flawed as they were. That show head charm, humor and heart, and I keep rewatching the episodes. This mini series that aired was not Torchwood as it was established during first two seasons, it wasn't even close.

So yeah, the SPN comment, where he basically tells me that I don't know what I want to watch, and all I need is some "pretty boys" and some slash and I won't be able to tell the difference, is obnoxious, and just confirms to me that he's telling me to Eff off.

Eh, this turned into a rant. Maybe I haven't cooled down as I thought I was. *headdesk*
Sorry. :/
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clex here with youbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 08:58 am (UTC)
Everything that made Torchwood the show many of us loved was simply ignored or destroyed
Yeah, I hear what you're saying but from a really different perspective, since I always thought Torchwood was a terrible show with nothing interesting at all to say--and I was delighted to see it finally tell an interesting (to me, all things being subjective) story. But I see that CoE was completely different from what came before. I guess I just feel like this was signalled in Jack's character from DW, and CoE was the sort of thing I expected when I first heard about Torchwood. It just seems like it took Russell a long time to get to the story he'd wanted to tell all along... and I guess he and I both don't really care about what came in between. I don't mean to be rude to Torchwood fans--I can definitely see why if you loved the show that was there for two seasons you might not love this. So rant away! Don't apologise! Believe me, I have cursed many a show director's blinkered, arrogant view of their audience before (I'm just enjoying the novelty of being in synch with one for once).
supacatsupacat on July 24th, 2009 09:21 am (UTC)
I always thought Torchwood was a terrible show with nothing interesting at all to say--and I was delighted to see it finally tell an interesting (to me, all things being subjective) story.

Here here. Torchwood was a mess of a show, but S3 was some of the best sci-fi of the last 5 years.
Beck: Torchwood Jack by gemstar69beck_liz on July 24th, 2009 11:47 am (UTC)
I liked previous series of Torchwood much more than you, but even I have to admit that it was a terrible show and half the reason I was still watching is that I'm a major Captain Jack Harkness fan. I found Series 3 to be incredibly well-done and I enjoyed it thoroughly. To be honest, I totally saw seeds of this series in the previous two series. Among other things, there's always been darkness in the show, and it's been made clear from day 1 that Torchwood personnel die young.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Playtime girlbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 01:03 pm (UTC)
Interesting! I suddenly found Jack compelling in S3, after seeing him fizzle into self-indulgence and one-dimensionality in seasons 1-2 of Torchwood. I had thought he had potential when he was introduced on Who even though he was never a character I was naturally drawn to. I thought S3 was brilliant! The plotting was so well done, everything built together so perfectly.
Diana: Human -- Jack Harknessbutterfly on July 25th, 2009 12:26 am (UTC)
Honestly, I think this is what the show has been trying to be since the beginning (and "Everything Changes" was really effective and good), but Chris Chibnall just wasn't quite good enough to make it happen, so it often came off as cheesy instead (like "Cyberwoman").
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya Raibop_radar on July 25th, 2009 08:40 am (UTC)
I feel like Children of Earth totally validated Torchwood's existence. And this is from an outright Torchwood hater! That was some seriously good television, and if it took two mediocre seasons to get to it, than so be it, it was worth the wait!
Diana: Sunset -- Gwenbutterfly on July 25th, 2009 09:54 am (UTC)
I've enjoyed TW, but mostly for the great acting of a few (Gwen, Tosh, Owen) and the chemistry of the actors. The plots have been... mostly bad (with a few standouts quality ones, more so in the second season). The continuity in S1 was horrible (and Ianto was a total blank slate -- honestly, the J/I shippers should be glad that the relationship finally got emotional depth, because it didn't really have that in S2, either).

S3 was like they took all the things that worked and ramped them up to eleven, fixed the things that didn't work, and made it to all into a genuinely fantastic show. I wouldn't trade what RTD did on DW for anything, because I've loved all of that, but... wow, part of me wishes that he'd paid TW more attention if this is what he could make it.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on July 26th, 2009 01:05 am (UTC)
Hee, it does seem like when he gives something his full attention it becomes awesome. I was very impressed with the tightness of the plotting and writing in CoE, something which is missing from so many shows. Mostly I've appreciated what RTD with DW, though I don't like the woobie-fication and deification of the Doctor. But he does seem to be someone with flashes of brilliance.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: TW smilebop_radar on July 24th, 2009 01:04 pm (UTC)
Haha, yeah it is so insane that it is amusing. Admittedly I'm only free to be amused right now because I agree with him in this case--the arrogance could just as easily be infuriating.
Drooling Fan Girldroolfangrrl on July 24th, 2009 01:23 pm (UTC)
Just saw Ianto's death. Very melodramatic, one thing I would have changed was his very last words. Something like "Don't let them take the kids" would have fixed it for me, because as is his last concern is that Jack doesn't forget him.

And that Post-show thing? While of slight interest, is really kind of annoying me because it feels extraordinarily self-congratulatory.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Batgirlbop_radar on July 24th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)
Oh, yeah, his actual death made me eyeroll. Soooo dramatic. The only thing I liked about the last line was that Jack so obviously is going to try really hard to forget him.
Laura ☂: dw: thoughtstarryeyedmagic on July 24th, 2009 08:13 pm (UTC)
I would really like to sit down with RTD and have him explain to me why Ianto's death was necessary because I still really don't get it.

I understand what he's saying about character deaths being necessary sometimes. Deaths of favorite characters are always sad, but usually those deaths are accompanied by a feeling a purpose. I usually feel like the death elevates the plot or possibly gives the character who died (or characters close to them) more depth in some way. I didn't feel like Ianto's death did any of that.

Yes, the stakes were high so bad things would undoubtedly have to happen. But honestly, I feel like enough children died in episode 5 (on screen!) for the largeness of the situation to be felt by the viewers.

Also, at the start of this miniseries there was only 3 main characters to begin with! If there were 6 maybe I would understand how it would feel unlikely that they would all survive...but there were only 3 so their likely hood of survival does actually increase a bit.

Ianto was my favorite. I'm not going to lie about that. But really what upsets me the most about the whole thing was how entirely unnecessary it felt.
If Gwen had died (who I like, but much less than Ianto) I would have felt the same way.

I thought Children of Earth was a fantastic miniseries up until that point(better than the actual show). But with Ianto's death in episode 4 and all the horror in episode 5 I really did think they went too far. It wasn't good storytelling IMO.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Ericabop_radar on July 24th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)
I can explain why it was necessary from a narrative point of view, to an outsider, if that helps, but I imagine you will still remain annoyed by it. The big thing was that Jack had to pay a price, had to be challenged emotionally, as a consequence of his actions in the past. Also they needed to 'up the stakes' in the penultimate episode. I can tell you that as someone not passionately attached to any of the characters I would have found it a lot less dramatically compelling if none of the core characters had died. I do think the fact that three had died off previously made it harder for regular fans to swallow, but I see how it kind of had to be Ianto that died--his death was the most challenging to Jack and really set up the final scene where Gwen naively things Jack will stick around with her. Gwen was the perfect character to play that scene--if it had been Ianto the focus would have been on whether Jack was running from their relationship or not. Which wasn't the point.
Laura ☂: sv: loisclarkstarryeyedmagic on July 25th, 2009 01:17 am (UTC)
The big thing was that Jack had to pay a price, had to be challenged emotionally, as a consequence of his actions in the past.
I agree that Jack did have to pay a price, but I kind of think that murdering his grandson was more than enough for that. And possibly too much also. Because really, how many children have you seen murdered (on screen) on television? I can probably count the number on one hand. That's some pretty drastic stuff.

And then Ianto was simply on top of that?

Also they needed to 'up the stakes' in the penultimate episode. I can tell you that as someone not passionately attached to any of the characters I would have found it a lot less dramatically compelling if none of the core characters had died.
I still feel like the whole thing was depressing enough as it was, even if you ignore Ianto's death. Having it be children in danger really does make for a more emotional impact. And then that one man (who was a main character in the miniseries) shooting his entire family? That was intense.

And the fact that there really were only 3 TW characters left as it was...it made another death feel ridiculous. I went in thinking that the show was going to rebuild itself after ending on such a depressing note the last time we saw it...I didn't expect it to be about 10x more depressing than I ever could have imagined.

I can be a big fan of angst sometimes, but there is definitely a point where it's too much and then everything you've done loses a lot of significance.

When its the "end of the world" in a movie or a tv show your audience will only care about that because of the characters that live in that world. I found that after Ianto died I really didn't care about whether Jack and Gwen saved the world or not. There should never be a point when a large part of your viewership no longer cares (or cares less) about your main plot. If Ianto died for a reason then I would probably still care about the main plot, but he didn't.

his death was the most challenging to Jack and really set up the final scene where Gwen naively things Jack will stick around with her. Gwen was the perfect character to play that scene--if it had been Ianto the focus would have been on whether Jack was running from their relationship or not. Which wasn't the point.
I understand what you're saying here but...why did that scene need to happen? Why was it necessary to completley break Jack? That wasn't the only way for him to atone for his past.
Personally, I also prefer a less angsty Jack to begin with. Like when he was first introduced on Doctor Who. Now COE left him with more issues to work through than the Doctor on his darkest days. haha. But that's just a personal preference.

I was struck by how Ianto said that Jack wouldn't have done what he did with the children in the 60s now, he would have stood up to the aliens. He started to do that with Ianto but then...he ran away in the end.
It might have worked better if Ianto had given him the courage to figure out a way to stop the aliens without killing his grandson. Maybe he would have to leave earth for an undetermined amount of time and do something so the children of earth would be safe? If Ianto had died and then he was the person that gave Jack the strength to do something like that it would have given his death purpose.
If he lived, then Jack would still have to give up the most important person in the world to him (ianto) to do what needed to be done. Which wouldn't be running away from the relationship, it would just be standing up and doing what was necessary.

It would show how Jack has grown as a person since that time in the 60s. He was so alone then and apparently just "didn't care". But now he does. Maybe it would be Ianto and Gwen together (if Ianto lived) to help him realize what he needed to do and that could show how the new Torchwood team is like his family that inspires him or something (to make it less romantically focused).

lol, those are just other ideas I'd love to discuss with RTD.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: The Fallbop_radar on July 25th, 2009 08:35 am (UTC)
Mmm, this is definitely an 'agree to disagree' situation since it sounds like what I'm interested in in Jack is completely different to what you were drawn to, and I loooooooved the darkness and disturbing nature (and yes, it was shocking!) of Children of Earth--like I totally lapped up Frobisher killing his family. It was horrible and disturbing but it totally worked for me. I respect that for others that's not what they signed up to watch and it was too much. And obviously my experience watching was as an 'outsider' so I see it from a really different angle.
why did that scene need to happen? Why was it necessary to completley break Jack?
Within Children of Earth, Jack was cast as an anti-hero, a dark character, capable of sacrificing children without it weighing heavily on his conscience. He also thought he was capable of handling things that he actuallly wasn't--Ianto's death was the point at which Jack was shown to be in 'over his head' and where he first actually had to face up to the consequences of his actions in the past. That set up the fact that to save the world this time around he would have to consciously choose to sacrifice a child much closer to him. But notably he had no direct relationship with his grandson, and personally I don't feel his grandson's death affected him nearly as much as Ianto's. I think both deaths were necessary in order to have the anti-hero actively struggle with his conscience--one accidental death angered him and made him determined that Ianto wouldn't have died in vain, so to speak, but the other death was necessary to prove him as the 'ultimate' anti-hero, because it was a conscious decision on Jack's part, with remorse, and it was actually 'heroic' in that it DID save everyone. That's a really dark story, but personally I found it very powerful. Sorry, the warm fuzzy ending you described would have bored me to tears. But that's the thing I guess--you feel you signed up for something very different, something I was never interested in. Whereas CoE was totally to my taste.
Laura ☂: tscc: johncameroncutestarryeyedmagic on July 27th, 2009 05:05 pm (UTC)
I liked a lot of what happened if I think of each sequence separately. Frobisher killing his family was really intensely fascinating. But then I think about everything else that also happened....

I'm a huge fan of anti-hero stories, but I just think they went a bit too far with the whole thing and the ending lost a lot of impact because of that.

It's like they said, "Well, we killed 40% of our cast last season. Why don't we just kill off our most popular character (making 60% of the cast dead) and then possibly murder some kids on screen to top it off!"
That doesn't sound kind of unnecessarily extreme?
I can't really think of any other show I've watched that has ever gone that far with anything. Can you?

My biggest problem? In episode 5 I found the whole thing so ridiculously over the top with all the horrible traumatic events that were happening, that I was kind of laughing at times. And then I just didn't care. RTD argues that he was glad that everyone had such an emotional reaction to it...well, I had an extremely emotional reaction to Ianto dying at first...but then when everything else happened, that stopped. I just felt indifferent/bored and there was a lot of eye rolling going on. I think it's a HUGE problem when some of your audience doesn't really care about the ending of your main plot. And I just didn't anymore.

I get that Torchwood isn't known for it's subtly (lol look at Barrowman's acting) but I think if they wanted to go this dark they needed to do it much more carefully than they did. Throwing every possible bad thing imaginable in your audience's face is over kill. It cheapened Jack's personal journey for me.

The endings I mentioned were just off the top of my head and definitely not the best but....I think they did fit more with the tone of the show, which I think needs to be remembered. I don't consider them warm fuzzy endings (on this show) and I'm sure a lot of people would have found them kind of depressing (again, just within the realms of this particular show).

And also, this has nothing to do with the actual story of COE, but I was never a huge fan of Torchwood. Ianto was mostly what kept me coming back because I enjoyed his snarky comments. He was just a very entertaining character (to me). And it does make me sad that I won't see that again.
In terms of the story, I think I wanted Ianto's death to have more "meaning" than it really did. And I wanted the meaning to be positive, I can't help it. haha maybe that's selfish of me, but I felt like as a huge fan of his character I needed that.

All in all, COE just didn't work for me. At all. I was wrapped up in it originally, and then I felt like they went too far at the end and they totally lost me. I still feel Ianto's death was unnecessary (and will hurt the future of the show greatly because I found the character/actor to be quite wonderful). I feel like Jack's journey could have been more complex if less had happened. I just don't like being hit over the head with anything.

I'm glad that it did work for you though. It makes me feel better about COE as a whole to know that someone really did appreciate it for what it was. And it definitely makes for a more interesting discussion if we have disagreements!

Edited at 2009-07-27 05:07 pm (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on July 27th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
I can't really think of any other show I've watched that has ever gone that far with anything. Can you?
No, I can't, and that was one of the reasons I found it intense and amazing--it went against all my expectations and it's so rare that TV does this. I found it really brave, but I see that it also plays as shocking and at a certain point can be overload for people. It wasn't for me... I don't know what that says about me?! Maybe it's because I read a lot of very full-on books and watch a lot of movies that are far braver than TV. TV often feels so tame to me, and I liked them throwing everything to the wind for once.

well, I had an extremely emotional reaction to Ianto dying at first...but then when everything else happened, that stopped. I just felt indifferent/bored and there was a lot of eye rolling going on
HA! That's amazing. I had the exact opposite reaction. Ianto's death was the one really flat moment in the last two eps. I actually LOL'd aloud during it (thanks to Barrowman's acting) and I couldn't wait for it to be over. SO ridiculously over the top! To me it felt like the one moment of the sort of indulgence I'm used to from Torchwood and Russell in the whole show--and it nearly threw me out. I think it was the support cast--Frobisher, Lois, etc--that drew me back in.

I think they did fit more with the tone of the show, which I think needs to be remembered
I do think the tone of the show changed in CoE. I feel like CoE is a standalone piece that can be enjoyed as scifi, regardless of whether you've previously seen the series or not. Personally I found the (admittedly very dark) tone appealing, but I agree that it did not match what came before and I hear you on it not being a gradual or subtle shift into the new area--they just went full on for it.

I think I wanted Ianto's death to have more "meaning" than it really did.
I think that's natural. Ianto was a very likeable character. He was my favourite too, though that's not saying much as I never liked the series. I think the main thing I personally wanted from his ending was a bit more about the kids--I liked the poignancy of Jack saving Ianto's niece and nephew but not his own grandson, for instance. I could have done with a whole lot less woobie!Jack too. ;)

will hurt the future of the show greatly
Well to be honest I thought the show was over, and thought it was a fab way to go out with a bang. I think if it continues (and I gather it is continuing?!) that will seriously weaken the impact of CoE--which could be a good thing for you!

It makes me feel better about COE as a whole to know that someone really did appreciate it for what it was.
I was in raptures--it's one of the best bits of television I've seen all year. Which probably makes me a very sick puppy! ;) One of the things I liked is that things never really seem to be at stake in the Who verse. So I liked seeing that same universe suffer some really fucked up shit for once. I think a lot of it was the surprise factor--I never expected this show to go that far. And that same surprise/shock that delighted me turned you (and the majority of fans I know) off it. So I know I'm in the minority and I'm surprised myself at the novelty of Russell creating something that played perfectly to my taste!
Laura ☂: sv: loisclarkstarryeyedmagic on July 28th, 2009 12:00 am (UTC)
Maybe it's because I read a lot of very full-on books and watch a lot of movies that are far braver than TV. TV often feels so tame to me, and I liked them throwing everything to the wind for once.
Even though I discuss this far more with my RL friends than my LJ ones, I'm actually more of a film buff than a TV fan. So I agree that sometimes TV can feel tame. But I don't know, I think if you're going to be that dark (especially on a show that has previously been more "amusing" than anything else) you have to walk a very fine line. It's extremely tricky. So I can't really applaud them for being bold since it didn't bring out the emotions in me that it should have.

Ianto's death was the one really flat moment in the last two eps.
I don't really mean the scene specifically (LOL Barrowman's acting was totally ridiculous). I just meant the mere fact that Ianto died at all. If I were reading a book of COE and I read the line "And then Ianto died" I would have to put it down and sob for like 5mins, hahaha. I was completley unspoiled for Ianto's death and really didn't expect it. So the second it happened I got really emotional because of my massive love for the character. Not even Barrowman's over the top acting could have prevented that. haha.

Frankly, I almost wished they had focused on it more in ep 5. LOL I NEEDED TO MOURN HIM. I don't care if it was indulgent. Ianto was the heart and soul of the show (for me), his death was a HUGE deal.

I feel like CoE is a standalone piece that can be enjoyed as scifi, regardless of whether you've previously seen the series or not.
You know, now that you say that I think it might have worked much better as a standalone. You know, with entirely new characters. Like if it wasn't Torchwood at all. Because then Ianto's death wouldn't have been so overpowering. It would have still been unnecessarily dark, but I would have been able to view it objectively.

Although, at the same time the reason I watch any tv show is for the characters. The characters are the heart of the story, if you don't care about them then everything rings hollow.
lol but maybe hollow characters are necessary to enjoy such intense darkness.

Well to be honest I thought the show was over, and thought it was a fab way to go out with a bang. I think if it continues (and I gather it is continuing?!) that will seriously weaken the impact of CoE--which could be a good thing for you!
RTD said at Comic-con that he wants it to continue and thinks it probably will (although nothing is official yet).

I'll probably watch just to check it out but gosh, the idea of the Jack and Gwen show bores me. lol. But maybe there will be some new characters to get attached to? Although, do I even want to put myself through the ringer again if I do get a attached and something like COE happens again? haha I don't know.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on July 28th, 2009 04:33 am (UTC)
I got really emotional because of my massive love for the character. Not even Barrowman's over the top acting could have prevented that
Hee! I see what you're saying. I do know how passionate character attachment can influence a viewing--I don't have it about anyone in Torchwood but I sure have it about, say, Lee in BSG, where regardless of how brilliant the plot was, or how ridiculous the writing around it, I'd be a screaming, crying mess if he died. Favourites are favourites.

I think it might have worked much better as a standalone. You know, with entirely new characters
*nods* I didn't care who the characters were. Probably only Jack was the one I enjoyed as part of a character continuum--because this was the side of his character I always wanted explored. But the identity of the rest didn't matter to me at all.

But I don't want you to think that means I didn't care about the characters! I really, really did--it's just it was built very quickly, and I was really invested in Lois and Frobisher most of all, and partly in Jack's daughter. I also really liked Ianto's sister. Their plots were the ones I got most into and I found some of them (Frobisher's!) heartbreaking but effective. Obviously my attachment to them couldn't be anywhere near as strong as yours for Ianto, because yours had been built up over a longer period, so the two don't equate. But I disagree that the characters shown in CoE were 'hollow' or that character investment wasn't part of my enjoyment. In fact, the darker it is, the more I need strong characterisation, otherwise it would feel gratuitous to me. I realise it DID feel so to you--so maybe none of the characters felt real to you?--but it honestly worked for me--it had a kind of reverse psychology effect on me where I became really sympathetic to Gwen (who irks me) and Jack by the end of the show. They were flawed, yes, but that made me feel for them as 'human'.

I don't know if I'll go back either. I seriously doubt they'll top CoE for me because i don't think it's typical of the stories they tell on Torchwood--it definitely felt like Russell just lobbed up and did a whole new thing with it in S3. Though I've also read commentary from fans who feel there is more continuity with the rest of Torchwood than I (or you) do. So who knows?
Laura ☂: trueblood:  ericsookieminestarryeyedmagic on July 28th, 2009 05:16 pm (UTC)
Oh, I'm not saying that the characters in COE felt hollow. Quite the opposite. I just meant that I may have been able to be more...rational about the whole thing if I didn't have an overwhelming attachment to Ianto. I almost wish they were more hollow.

If all the characters were brand new I would be fond of Ianto I'm sure, and I would have been sad when he died. But I would have shed a tear or 2 and then moved on and wanted to know how they were going to save the world. I would have been more interested in Jack's journey.

But since I've had such intense love for Ianto for many years I felt rather gutted when he died. There was even a moment when I thought, "lol why bother to save a world that Ianto's not in?! What's the point anymore?"

Because as I said in an earlier comment, your audience only cares about the fate of the world because of the characters that live in that world. Jack can't die so there's no point worrying about him. And like you, I felt more sympathy toward Gwen than I had before so I'd be sad about her and Rhys dying, but I could get over that since I never liked Gwen much before this.
So...if they're not saving the world directly for Ianto why should I even care? (Even though it was nice that they tried to save his niece and nephew for him, that's not even remotely enough).

lol this is the problem with killing off so much of your cast. If Tosh and Owen were still around I'd at least care about whether they lived or not.

When I started watching episode 5 all I wanted to do was mourn Ianto. And then they just hit me with every other horrible thing that anyone could possibly imagine. And I was just like "LOL JUST STOP! This is ridiculous!"
I couldn't really handle everything else happening because I so upset over Ianto. I mean, it was overkill to begin with, but it was even worse since my state of mind was seriously FRAGILE! haha.

It was like beating a dead horse. The dead horse which was me. I felt so beat down that I just stopped feeling or caring and became indifferent and started finding things that were supposed to be serious...funny. And not just because of Barrowman's acting.

I also think it may have helped if the episodes aired a week apart. Since it was literally the next day, Ianto's death was still fresh in my mind. Maybe I would have been more into the episode if I had some perspective?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: FNL Lylabop_radar on July 30th, 2009 01:31 pm (UTC)
The dead horse which was me.
Oh noes! :(( What a terrible feeling! I don't have much to add (having hashed it all out above!) except I agree that the fast airings added to the intensity, whether for better or worse--I can imagine if it went sour for you that it would have been hard to process all that so fast. I know I've sometimes been grateful for a week or two's processing-time when TV's been really full on (especially in a killing-my-favourite-character way!!).