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24 August 2009 @ 09:10 am
Vidding fandom post: follow-up  
I'd like to thank everyone who has participated / is participating in the discussion in my post about inclusion and exclusion in vidding fandom. I would like to acknowledge that it's not an easy topic to discuss, and I think overall it's been a very positive (if emotionally draining!) conversation.

I also apologise for conflating approximately 100 different issues into one post--that was not ideal, although it was kind of awesome to see people identify with lots of separate parts! I still feel a bit overwhelmed by the responses but I'm making this post in the spirit of moving forward, especially since I personally find myself in a very different emotional place after the post than before. And you'll see that a great deal of this post is framed personally, because... well it always was a deeply personal post/subject, though definitely one I hoped would be constructive for others in the community and the community as a whole.

Personal notes
1. It's not all in your head. The relief that came from finding other people who felt a similar way, even if only on aspect of my post, was overwhelming. I was glad to see people finding each other in the comments too. Finding a voice was important for me--I think it was for others too.
2. It IS all in your head. In the sense that it's only as important as you make it. YAY! \o/
3. An extraordinary number of people (most people?!) feel like they 'don't fit in' in one way or another--even the people you think fit in.
4. Someone you might read as intimidating may just be shy themselves.
5. There is a great diversity of opinion within the fandom about these issues, and a lot of anxiety. That first part is comforting, the second saddening.
6. The best way to deal with these feelings is to do what you want, yourself. Whether that's vidding what you want. Or creating the space in fandom you'd like to have. It take courage and effort but it can be done.

Personal resolutions

These are in addition or complementary to those in my initial post:
1. Be more courageous in asking for help. Don't let fear stop you.
2. Reach out to others who feel the same way.
3. Assume other people don't see themselves as having status, even if you think they do.
4. Assume other people may think you have status. (Really I just about came away thinking everyone looks like they have status in the eyes of others!) And therefore behave to them the way you would wish those you look up to to behave to you.
5. Lower your expectations. Stop expecting the world to be perfect or others to be so.
6. Make your own fun! <--a personal motto of mine in many situations and something which despite appearances in the previous post, I'm actually very good at doing. :) See more below.
7. Explore other communities.

I don't want to stir up emotions on this again, but I realised I'd said this elsewhere and not on my own journal. This is a purely subjective description of my experience and I do not wish to debate it with anyone. I have had nothing but positive experiences with men in vidding fandom. I was absolutely startled in the recent debate into suddenly thinking of them as men, to be honest, since I usually think of them as vidders first and other aspects of their personality somewhere down the track... maybe. And that's from someone who considers herself a hardcore feminist and has had (more than) her fair share of issues with men elsewhere, in other environments. So I'm going to go back to that mindset as of now. It feels a lot more comfortable.

One of the things I loved about the comments was people throwing out suggestions of things to actually do. My thanks to elynross for her participation in the threads in matters related to Vividcon. Personally, I wanted to highlight a couple of 'action points' (omg! I sound like a frakking committee--sorry, I have work brain on!) evolving for me personally from the discussions.
1. Australian/NZ vidding convention. Even if it's just three people in a cafe. :) To be planned... at some point. I'm sticking my hand up and saying I'm willing to organise this.
2. Rec more diversely. People are interested! That was most encouraging, in fact I came away wondering if I wonder if I sometimes feel as much or more interested in the wider 'remix' culture (I learnt this collective term! *g*) than in the narrower vidding fandom. Hmm. Certainly creatively I'm at a point where I want to draw on much wider material.
3. A Livejournal community for socialising about vidding? Maybe? chaila suggested to me that what a lot of people seem to be expressing is an absence of engagement and connection with other vidders--and it would be cool to have somewhere we could just hang out in a low-pressure environment on LJ. Somewhere to meet others and chat. While we could do that already, without a specific community, going up to someone in their own journal is a little different and I know I've found in other fandoms that having a shared social space can be really valuable. There are heaps of communities that fulfil specific needs or desires in the vidding community already--resource communities, rec communities, places to post vids, like in fandom-specific communities, but maybe there are people who'd like this sort of space as well? The idea is only just beginning to form, but we both like it and if others are interested would love to hear their ideas about what that sort of space would look like for you. We'd really want to invite input from anyone.

Thanks all! :)

PS. If I'm slow to respond it's because I still have Work Crisis, not because I hate you or am a snob. :)

ETA: Adding 'investigate possibility of vidukon recurring to 'do do' list'.
Current Location: sofa of workitude
Current Mood: bouncybouncy
Morgan Dawnmorgandawn on August 24th, 2009 12:31 am (UTC)
My first thought when I read this was: well put! I cannot find anything in here to disagree with.

So I thought I'd rush to say that first.

I love the idea of the vidding convention. And if that vidding social community is created, let me know so I can help boost the signal. I feel so sad when people post "I need a beta" on the vidding community. I never know if they all get help.

ps. I am still laughing about the fact that *none* of us are high status.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya Raibop_radar on August 24th, 2009 12:41 am (UTC)
:D Yay! Thank you! Boosting the signal would be great. I must also say, I'm sorry I was really awkward in the past (I don't know if you noticed?) about linking my vid_chats on the vidding community? It's partly because I have this weird neurosis about posting to comms (I know! I need to get over it!) and partly because at the time I and friends really did feel like we weren't really part of that wider community. Which I recognise now was very silly. :)

I feel so sad when people post "I need a beta" on the vidding community.
Ohh, yes! And yet I never feel brave enough to respond either! Bad Bop. If we get a social comm up, it would be good to have a 'need a beta? willing to beta?' kind of exchange/friending post maybe.

*none* of us are high status.
Glad to bring the LOLZ. They are needed. None of us and all of us, mind you! Seriously... a few people expressed timidity with me and I went to friend them and in every single case found reason to think 'wha... huh? shouldn't that be the other way round?' when I checked out their LJs.
kiki_miserychickiki_miserychic on August 24th, 2009 01:27 am (UTC)
I feel so sad when people post "I need a beta" on the vidding community.
LOL, me too. I've answered a couple of those posts before when I've had the time and felt comfortable enough knowing the source. I've never had a bad experience doing it.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya lanternbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 01:39 am (UTC)
That's encouraging to hear! I love betaing and really should let people know that more often... my own fear that I don't have much to offer gets in the way, but ... I think it might be rubbish. ;) I haz something. *holds a little glowy light of something*

(the caffeine's made me all mental this morn!)
Kass: veronica and wallacekassrachel on August 24th, 2009 01:55 am (UTC)
Thank you for hosting these conversations.

It's funny -- I was realizing earlier today that because you make vids which I really enjoy (and which I think of as being far more sophisticated than mine), I see you as part of the crowd of vidders who I hope to emulate as I become a more confident and hopefully skillful vidder. It had never occurred to me that you might not see yourself as having status in this community! So I laughed when I read your points about status. We probably all need the reminder that status is in the eye of the beholder... :-)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 02:26 am (UTC)
*nods* I think one of the problems with a creative community is that we bring our own creative anxieties to the communal space. Self-doubt is a natural part of the creative process, and so it's soooo easy to fall into thinking you're no good and thinking others have passed some kind of magical test. I think of you as being more accepted (and therefore having greater status) in the community because you've met people in person! I need to stop making these assumptions--or at least stop assuming that the person I'm making them about feels the same way!

Did I just invite the entire fandom to my own personal therapy session? It kind of feels like that? EEK!
Kass: Clex hugkassrachel on August 24th, 2009 05:10 pm (UTC)
Did I just invite the entire fandom to my own personal therapy session? It kind of feels like that? EEK!

Dude, what else is livejournal FOR?


K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clex lovebop_radar on August 24th, 2009 09:59 pm (UTC)
Haha! That could be true... And now we are friended and that is yayful so hey, new friends out of therapy? Seems like a win!
Talithatalitha78 on August 24th, 2009 02:30 am (UTC)
Ohhh, I'd come to a AUS/NZ vid con! I've been dying for an excuse to go back down there, and I'm definitely the type of crazy who would fly all that way for this sort of thing. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Yay!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
OMG!!!! You'd come, to mycon! But that would be so table flippy! Imagine if I went to the States and then you came to Aus! :D *spazzes out at possibilities*

I need to try not to hyperventilate. :p I get too excited about this stuff. But omg, it would be so cool!
Talithatalitha78 on August 24th, 2009 05:11 pm (UTC)
You are such a delight. *giggles happily*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Batgirlbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:37 pm (UTC)
Hey, and now I need to ask you about your experiences getting to Vidukon from overseas. :) halcyon_shift has given me the nod to look into possible timing/location of a second one, and we're wondering how Milton Keynes was for someone coming from OS. Maybe you want to email me? Would love to hear your thoughts!

(Also, if you came to Melbourne that would be so fun! We could sightsee, I always like that. :) You'd have to deal with us hanging our washing outside though. :p)
Talithatalitha78 on August 26th, 2009 12:12 am (UTC)
Milton Keynes was great. Great location, and the hotel was fantastic. The only thing I'd say is that if you have any mobility issues, getting from Heathrow to the Tube to the commuter train might be a hassle. But for anyone who's even slightly used to public transit, it's no problem.

You'd have to deal with us hanging our washing outside though

HAHAHA. I will never live that down. :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Bop_radar TWbop_radar on August 27th, 2009 08:28 am (UTC)
Ohhh good to know. *notes down* And hey, I have a personal hatred of Heathrow and its annoying-to-navigate system, so yup, I can imagine.
Sue: I vid monosuechosethis on August 28th, 2009 02:02 pm (UTC)
I had a little thrill of excitement to read that a second Vidukon is being talked about. I was at the first. Such a thrill to be there with vidders that I look up to. Lovely people.

If it happens again I may even be brave enough to submit a vid :)

The experience helped me come to terms with many of the issues you discuss in your post although I think I still struggle with some of them. Thank you for putting this out for discussion.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 02:39 am (UTC)
yay! That's so good to hear! It's definitely on the cards and I'll poll on the comm about it this weekend.

You should submit! I found it less scary to submit to a smaller con for my first ever premiere (which was at Vidukon). Even then I had the SERIOUS jitters. We all do. Perhaps it also helped that I could hide at the other side of the world while doing it. ;)
ktnushanakt on August 28th, 2009 05:45 am (UTC)
that's it, we're doing it. AUS/NZ vid con is so on now. it'll be like 10 people, but hey, it will be awesome! in a perfect, sideways world, i would be able to convince my uni to give us a space for free.

what do you think about having a more open "video remix" con and inviting AMV and machinima people and stuff? would that be too weird?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 02:41 am (UTC)
YAYY!! OMG, would looooooove it to be a more open 'video remix' con! :D I think that would be so cool! It can be whatever we/people want. And honestly, I'll help organisation-wise any way I can. I am prepared for it to be hard work. I'm seriously invested in it. :)

Space from your uni? That seems brilliant!
ktnushanakt on August 29th, 2009 12:44 pm (UTC)
lol well i certainly don't even have time to think about atm, but hey who knows? my uni has funded weirder stuff, trust me. i can use a bunch of fancy, pseudo-academic words like "collaborative transformative remix digital culture" or somesuch. unis love that. hehe.

well, i'll think about it a bit more and maybe we can talk about arranging one at some point. i know where to find ya! let me know if you have any ideas, eh?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 30th, 2009 06:17 am (UTC)
no worries! I will do much thinking/planning and we can reconvene in time...
Talithatalitha78 on August 29th, 2009 03:49 pm (UTC)
that's it, we're doing it. AUS/NZ vid con is so on now


what do you think about having a more open "video remix" con and inviting AMV and machinima people and stuff

The more, the merrier, I say!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Yay!bop_radar on August 30th, 2009 06:15 am (UTC)
Yays!! :) Now I just have to work out how to turn this little kernel of an idea into reality... :D
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clark basketballbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 02:55 am (UTC)
Hahaha, yeah I still reserve the right to drool. Profusely. And squee. And tell people they're awesome if I think it. But I just won't put myself down in comparison to them, you know? (Eeek that is easier said than done!)
ex_akemi42 on August 24th, 2009 02:54 am (UTC)
I really love the idea of a low pressure LJ comm. One suggestion might to be have themes or weekly "questions." For example, one month, there could be a beta volunteer theme. Another one could be "post the vid you most enjoyed making and explain why." Another could be tech questions. I'll keep rambling...
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 02:57 am (UTC)
Yes, yes, ramble! That's great! We thought maybe we could have weeks of reccing different genres of vid (though we'd of course run into the 'who defines what that genre is' issue, eep)? And definitely an 'introduction' thread so people could meet each other (kind of like a vidders' friending meme).
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Chaotic Neutral Human Sorcerer (4th Level): [comics] The cards you're dealtmyniamh on August 24th, 2009 04:55 am (UTC)
Even if it's just three people in a cafe. I love this idea. Not that I don't think it could be a decent size. There would be a lot of people interested.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 05:16 am (UTC)
:D I'm so fine with it being small! I don't really care about size, I just want to meet up with someone and talk vids, you know? Does... does... that mean you might be interested?
Chaotic Neutral Human Sorcerer (4th Level)myniamh on August 24th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
I'm very interested and I can think of a handful of friends who might be very interested too.

I helped with a HP meet up years ago and it started out with just a few people sitting in a cafe. It was fantastic! =D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Yay!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 07:20 am (UTC)
Oh coool! See I think a small group can be good! It is a tiny malnourished unformed idea yet but I'll keep you posted, ok? I am determined to make it happen!
Kanekokaneko on August 24th, 2009 12:36 pm (UTC)
Aus/NZ vidding con! I'm so there, man!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Nodame rockbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:01 pm (UTC)
Yaaay! (Also I really should have friended you long ago and was just ridiculously shy about it!)
Kaneko: Brad flyingkaneko on August 25th, 2009 10:54 am (UTC)
Hee!! Same!! I'm so glad you posted (yay - vidcon!)
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya lanternbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:02 pm (UTC)
Wow, thanks! I really respect you for that. I think the discussion was a difficult one but an important one for many people... I, like many, don't want to remain stuck in it forever either, if that makes sense.
Andrasteandrastewhite on August 24th, 2009 02:18 pm (UTC)
You don't know me, but I've been following this discussion and would like to take this opportunity to say that I'd be absolutely delighted to be involved in a hypothetical Australia/NZ vid-type con. Even if it's just four people in a cafe :).

(I see from your profile that you're a fellow Melburnian, so it's not like we'd have a shortage of cafes to choose from ...)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:06 pm (UTC)
Oh wow! There are so many more Melburnians than I realised! At least... I think I'm at a count of three or four now. :D That's so exciting! (And adds extra irony to the fact that I've felt so lonely and far away from other vidders!) We can do this. It may be the teeniest 'con' in the world but we'll work out something.
Diardiarmi on August 24th, 2009 02:27 pm (UTC)
I just have to say you are my hero if you are able to follow all the threads, comments and messages that last few days brought. In the middle of Work Crisis... One tough woman of you:)))
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Audrey Tautoubop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:07 pm (UTC)
Er, you haven't seen the state of my house... my hair... or the behind-the-scenes insomnia and how much coffee I drank! ;)
Destinadestina on August 24th, 2009 04:23 pm (UTC)
'Twas an interesting conversation, and I'm glad you hosted it. I dunno, I still have a lot of conflicting feelings about these things, too, but I always think discussion is a good thing. So many diverse points of view were expressed, which just points out how important it is to get to talking about them. Lots of good stuff. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kittenbop_radar on August 24th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
Thanks. Believe me I have many conflicted feelings still too, I just don't want to remain 'stuck' in them: I had that feeling enough before I posted!
rockeandrollhalfeatenmoon on August 26th, 2009 06:55 am (UTC)
Australian/NZ vidding convention. Even if it's just three people in a cafe.

Kind of followed over to your journal after commenting in the first post... it's a real shame I only saw your post after Manifest, because Shinomatrix/InfinitySquared organises an AMV editors' dinner for the Saturday night of the convention every year. I don't know about vidding but as far as AMVs go, there is a real community of editors in Melbourne, even if it's a small one.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Nodame wowbop_radar on August 26th, 2009 07:42 am (UTC)
Really?!!! If there is a community for vidding in Melbourne it's entirely passed me by... I have massive longing for fellow vidders/editors to talk to! How do you think AMV people would feel about a vidder stalking them? :p (only half joking!) It's not that I don't watch any anime! *makes puppy eyes* I watch some! I've just never vidded it... and AMV is Teh Awesome. I have massive love for AMV. You're really thinking I should get more involved in things locally... even if they're not live-action.
rockeandrollhalfeatenmoon on August 27th, 2009 05:05 am (UTC)
I was talking to shinomatrix yesterday and mentioned talking to you and he said he wished you could have come to the dinner, so it sounds like they wouldn't mind! Most of the AMV types I know in Melbourne do live-action vids as well. rose_papillon in particular has done a few Harry Potter vids.

I sometimes feel like anime fandom is way more local and community-based and just ACTIVE in Melbourne than SFF fandom or media fandom, which is quite odd. Hmmm.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 27th, 2009 08:27 am (UTC)
Oh cool! Thank you! Maybe some other time I could meet up... if I get a vidding con/gathering going locally it would be great to hear from vidder/editors in other fields!

I sort of know what you mean re. Melbourne! I remember the anime club at MUP being huge and well organised when I was there. And people seemed really friendly and it felt like there was a wider network of fans as well. I like some anime but it never quite held my attention at the time (I'm too eclectic in my tastes some times! a bit of this... a bit of that... *g*).
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois red umbrellabop_radar on September 4th, 2009 02:37 am (UTC)
Awwww, wow, really?! :) *hugs* Thanks so much! It's lovely to hear that and not feel so alone either. I think we sometimes just need to reach out to people more, but it gets so hard when you think it's all 'just you'. It's been overwhelming for me, making the post and then the response... and I'm so glad other people took something positive from it.

You make cool vids. I remember this! *nods*