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29 August 2009 @ 02:21 pm
Vid chats poll  
I have had Many Thoughts since posting about vidding fandom. One main one has to do with vidding chats.

For those new friends who may not know, I ran a series of chats about vidding in my journal. A bit of history about them: vidding chats began because I wanted to talk to other people about things to do with vidding (pretty simple!) and because I'd recently realised a few other friends wanted to too. We originally polled for interest on them here. Once they got started, I personally underestimated the interest from a wider group but it was really cool to have people from different backgrounds and experience levels pop up and share their thoughts. I tried hard to make the chats welcoming and inclusive, but I'm also aware that my own biases (including a propensity to crap on!) came through. And I became more self-conscious over time about the limitations of me being the OP. I'd always hoped people would talk to each other as well as to me, and this did happen a bit but there was still definitely an extent to which it felt like I and other people were commenting into a vacuum. Also, there were many great suggestions for topics but I didn't always feel I would be the best person to host them. For instance, some people wanted more of a focus on newbie issues, but I can't get around the fact that after three years of vidding I'm not really a newbie any more. And some people wanted more technical or high-level (for want of a better word) discussions and I thought 'ohhh, that would be cool! I'd love that too!' but wondered how to host them because I wouldn't necessarily have much to contribute to a discussion myself. Of course, I could have hosted both (and sort of did) by being honest about the perspective I was speaking from and encouraging others to share their thoughts.

The other issue was simply a time one: I got very busy at work and still am. Some momentum with them was lost. So... I've been wondering for some time whether vid chats should have their own community. And following recent discussion, that seems even more desireable to me. So that they can be seen to belong to the wider community, so that they seem more welcoming because it's not just one person hosting and so that there can be more chats covering more areas.

Of course, I have no idea if other people agree! And it would totally depend on whether there's enough interest and whether other people would be willing to host chats some time. Personally I feel there would have to be other moderators of such a comm, other than me. While I can't imagine never hosting one again myself, I think it'd be really important to have people from a range of backgrounds and experience levels host. I'd absolutely love feedback on this. So! Poll.

Poll #1450417 Vid chats

If vid chats were to continue I would prefer them to be:

in your journal.
in a separate, dedicated community.

If vid chats had their own community:

I would probably be more likely to participate.
I would probably be as likely to participate, depending on topic.
I would probably be less likely to participate.

If vid chats had their own community:

I would prefer there to be a group of moderators who took it in turn to host chats.
I would prefer it to be open for anyone to host chats.
I would prefer some balance of both--people could host chats after/in consultation with the moderators.
I would prefer something else I'll tell you about in comments.

If vid chats had their own community:

I would be willing to host a chat.
I might be willing to host a chat.
I wouldn't be willing to host but I might participate in the chat in comments.

Wherever/however vid chats continue, I would like more of a focus on:

vid viewing rather than creating.
vid genres.
topics of interest to newbies.
topics of interest to more experienced vidders.
technical topics: e.g. effects, colour, motion, credits.
general topics about the creative process.
topics about interaction: e.g. feedback and concrit.
something else I'll mention in the comments.

The best thing about vid chats was:

The worst thing about vid chats was:

Please feel free to comment with any other thoughts!
Current Location: work desky
Current Mood: curiouscurious
rhoboatrhoboat on August 29th, 2009 04:35 am (UTC)
One of the things I think *might* make vid chats more inclusive would be instead of having a group of moderators which may seem off-putting to those "oustside" is to do this sort of "challenge-style." By that, I mean where you start out with moderated chats, but then whoever participates in the resulting discussion may get picked to host the next chat. Of course, people would be free to decline and the next willing person on the list (perhaps chosen randomly) would be the one to host the next chat. Topics of discussion by whoever is chosen next could also be subject to moderator approval. Of course, I don't know how well this would work until put into practice.

Did that make any sense? ^_^

Edited at 2009-08-29 04:37 am (UTC)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 04:40 am (UTC)
It does! And it's a really cool thought! It's always really hard to make a space feel inclusive while at the same time deal with the fact that someone needs to organise something and encourage things. ;) We might have to trial and error a few approaches for all I know... I'm open to anything. Thanks so much for sharing that idea--I hadn't thought of that possibility.
rhoboatrhoboat on August 29th, 2009 04:46 am (UTC)
Ah, well, it's not exactly an original one. I used to participate in vidding challenges for a couple fandoms that were hosted similarly. :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 05:37 am (UTC)
Oh cool! Did it work well for them? (I guess obviously it did since you shared the idea! duh!)
rhoboatrhoboat on August 29th, 2009 05:51 am (UTC)
It worked pretty well on Farscape forum (http://terrafirmascapers.com/index.php/board,41.0.html) for a few years until interest in vidding that show dwindled. A few of us tried it out for Doctor Who (http://community.livejournal.com/vortexchallenge/) a couple years ago, but it didn't quite work as well as we had hoped. We got some really fabulous vids from that attempt at least. :)
Laura Shapiro: viddinglaurashapiro on August 29th, 2009 03:39 pm (UTC)
My one fear of starting a comm for these is that the comm would die. I have seen so many vidding comms start and flounder, because nobody posted to them. I'm not sure why that is, as the same conversations often seem to flourish in people's LJs. Maybe people have anxiety about posting in a space that's perceived as more public?

Anyway, I totally get what you're saying about wanting to broaden participation, and I think it's a worthy goal. I'm just wondering if it might backfire.

Maybe as an interim step, you could continue hosting in your LJ but post announcements of the discussion on the other vidding comms, to attract wider readership? Or do a distributed thing where you arrange for people to sign up to host chats in their own journals, and publicize them as above?

Your call, obviously. I'll continue to read/participate wherever the chats are. (:
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: TW smilebop_radar on August 29th, 2009 11:50 pm (UTC)
You know... what you mention is a big reason why I opted to not start a comm in the first place. I have a terrible track record with comms personally.

I think regardless we should publicise it around, yes. I also like the idea of sharing them around people's personal journals. Wish I'd included that as a tick boxy but didn't want to assume others would be willing to do that.
sisabetsisabet on August 30th, 2009 05:28 am (UTC)
I am kind of terrified of posting in comms and it takes me about 3 years on average to get over it (if that). It just feels presumptious - like all these people who friended the comm are not interested in what I am spamming them with. So, not so much the public space thing as "none of these poor people signed up to deal with my thoughts" and I have no such issues with my own LJ as the people who friended me actually *did* sign up (or could easily defriend).

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 30th, 2009 05:45 am (UTC)
I am terrified of posting in comms too! I'm yet to get over that... But I'm not scared of commenting there... which is a strange contradictory place to be at. Hmm. How do you feel about commmenting to someone you're not friended to? Like if we had chats rotating around a bunch of journals and some of them were people you weren't friended to... would that be good or bad or indifferent for you?
sisabetsisabet on August 30th, 2009 08:29 pm (UTC)
No, commenting is fine - I can totally comment, especially if the topic is interesting although... huh, maybe I only comment when I see other people I know in the conversation? Like, otherwise I might think "these guys don't really care about what I have to say" and then I'll see someone I know and they are commenting back and forth and suddenly it is okay.

I really think a lot of my issues with inclusivity and what-not have nothing to do with vidding as a fandom and everything to do with social anxiety. And I am not a shy person!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya lanternbop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:21 pm (UTC)
I'm not a shy person either. Or ... I'm usually a high functioning shy person... people can't really tell I am shy because I overcome it. But in vidding? I clam up! Except when I, er, don't. *facepalm*
sisabetsisabet on August 31st, 2009 03:08 am (UTC)
It is like we are THE SAME PERSON!! Ahem. Yes, I too am quiet except for when I am not.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois duhbop_radar on August 31st, 2009 03:11 am (UTC)
I truly would never have guessed you were shy! (But people say that about me all the time. *g*)
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 30th, 2009 02:48 pm (UTC)
I understand feeling that way. At the same time, I have trouble imagining anyone would be annoyed by anything you would post. (:
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: FNL Tyra lolzbop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:17 pm (UTC)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha! Oh, Laura, IRONY! Thank you: I sincerely appreciate the thought! But in the week after I piss off a great many people and make myself far more a figure of controversy than I ever felt comfortable being... that just struck me as amusing.

I hope to get over my fear of posting my own vids to comms shortly... *bites nails* if THAT pisses people off, I really am in trouble!
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 30th, 2009 10:26 pm (UTC)
Hee! Well, I was actually talking to sisabet. (:

But my point stands! It's not that you could never post anything that annoys people -- we both know too well that that's not true. It's more that, in the context of the comm you're proposing, and people who would sign up for that comm, I have trouble seeing it happening.

You never had any drama in your vid chats, did you?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: MR dorkbop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:30 pm (UTC)
Then that makes more sense. :p Bop has early-morning-pre-coffee fail!

And yeah... I hear what you're saying. I never had any overt drama, but they were harder than they looked... especially issues around shyness and being welcoming. Especially when there was a mix of experienced vidders and newer vidders. I know a few injured feelings arose from them. :(
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 30th, 2009 10:33 pm (UTC)
Wow, really? That makes me sad. ):

I just...wanna point people to lim's comment some more, yanno?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Audrey Tautoubop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:43 pm (UTC)
Many things make me sad, yes! And yes... though I've had behind-the-scenes feedback about that as well. The feedback was basically 'we're not all lim' in the sense that some of us want more community/socialising than that, and when people are upset it's not solved by simply saying 'you're just making too big a deal about it' (which is a gross oversimplification of what she was saying, I know!). So while I personally adore lim's comment, I'm not sure it is balm to everyone. :(

Oh, it's all so hard!
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 30th, 2009 11:46 pm (UTC)
How frustrating.

I mean, I'm not trying to say that there's just one answer for everyone. I get that that is not so, and should not be so. But the thing that makes me saddest about fandom is how socially vulnerable so many of us are. I tend to cling to Eleanor Roosevelt's saying, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission." In fandom, we give away that permission all the time. We post things like "Here's my new vid, hope it doesn't suck too much," we give other people status and constantly deflect it when others try to give it to us, we think nobody likes us or nobody knows we exist...

I can't help wanting to make that go away.

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 31st, 2009 12:07 am (UTC)
I know! We're definitely all very socially vulnerable. And I love that saying too, but it's harder to practice than to preach. For me personally at least.

we give other people status and constantly deflect it when others try to give it to us, we think nobody likes us or nobody knows we exist...
*nods* I want that to go away too. I can only change my own behaviour though and just keep on correcting myself back on course when I fail.
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 31st, 2009 12:53 am (UTC)
You are wise. I have a hard time backing away and not trying to fix things. I have to keep reminding myself that, as you say, it's only my own behavior that I can change.

I realize, too, and this goes back more to our posts of the past couple of weeks, that I really did kind of slack off in the new-vidder-encouragement detail this year. I used to spend a lot more time doing beta, offering tech tips, and watching/reccing vidders that were new to me, but last year I was stressed out and didn't do it so much. Gotta get back on that train. I don't have the excuse of a job right now to interfere!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois snugglesbop_radar on August 31st, 2009 01:39 am (UTC)
You shouldn't feel guilty about 'slacking off' though! We're all here for fun, right? And hey, you do a LOT. I know how much it's meant to me personally... I would never have even dreamed of submitting to VVC ever in an eternity had not you wanted to include my vid in the Newbies show two years ago. (And oh, how I wept when I lost it!) I think everyone knows you do a lot... but you can't fix the world. ;) Neither can I and I'm struggling with that a lot in the wake of all this ... I want to rush out and fix EVERYTHING. I think that's a good thing because it was a wake-up call to me, but on the other hand we must both remember we're only human. (I may be talking to myself here: because I find it incredibly hard to remember and am feeling crushing guilt about my inability to resolve all woes.)
Laura Shapirolaurashapiro on August 31st, 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
Ah, I remember that. ::hugs:: But you'll be in other shows!

Thanks for the support. It sounds like we both tend to take on a lot of responsibility for the communities we love. Maybe we should go a little easier on ourselves from time to time?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Blair yelloqbop_radar on August 31st, 2009 07:09 am (UTC)
I think we may indeed be similar that way. :)
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 11:56 pm (UTC)
Rotating vidding chat seems to be a popular idea... I'm like you (ha! in so many ways!) about feeling more free to spam an OP I don't know with comments in a comm than if it's their personal journal...

Ohh, yes, from personal experience, bouncing ideas off someone is really valuable to the hosting process.
bradcpubradcpu on August 29th, 2009 06:32 pm (UTC)
If you don't use a dedicated community for the chats, I would think you (or the current host) could at least announce each new chat somewhere like the vid_commentary comm, with the topic and a link to the chat.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 11:57 pm (UTC)
Yes! I definitely agree. Regardless of format it would be great to widen the publicity/announcements. Cool to know vid_commentary would be happy to have announcements of that sort. :)
daybreak777: viddingdaybreak777 on August 29th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
That first question stumped me! I don't know why comms make me so shy. I guess they grow so much and fast and then I feel I don't know people? Like a comm can have a bunch of different people but only a few post. I start to wonder if everyone is still interested. So I don't know about the first question. All I know is I will definitely participate in some way. :-)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 29th, 2009 11:58 pm (UTC)
Cool! The comm call is a tough one, and I'm honestly torn two ways on it... I don't know which would best survive... rotating around personal journals, or a dedicated comm. It's good to hear that people will probably participate regardless though!
aychebaycheb on August 30th, 2009 09:47 am (UTC)
I voted for a comm but that was mostly because the alternative seemed to be you doing all the work. I OK with posting in comms or personal journals (when I have time) but I do agree that the comms always seemed to come and go too quickly. As soon as the posting frequency falls below a certain level it feels as if they're inactive and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whereas personal journals have a life beyond posting vid chats so it's easier for them to come back to life. I suppose though that without a central authority how to select the next host and what to do if, for whatever reason, they don't get around to it might be problems. Maybe rhoboat's idea could help there by providing a semi-automatic mechanism for setting up the next chat.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:36 am (UTC)
Mmm, I'm increasingly feeling rotating around personal journals might be the way to go? I definitely know what you mean about comms. It takes a lot to keep them afloat. It's a tricky thing and requires more thought!
deathisyourart: ME - Death at workdeathisyourart on August 30th, 2009 03:56 pm (UTC)
Speaking as a comm mod, I would definitely suggest keeping the chats in personal journals. Vidders are not chatty in a community setting, it just makes it easier to organize; that is the ONLY benefit of a community over a personal journal.

And as Brad said above, if you wanted to post a list of upcoming chats, or a masterlist every month or two we would be happy to have it at vid_commentary.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on August 30th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
Vidders are not chatty in a community setting
Hee. We're such recluses. *amused*

Yeah... I hear what you're saying, and I'm thinking no to a comm...
Amy: scc: cameronsuch_heights on August 31st, 2009 12:40 pm (UTC)
Hi, I am delurking and posting in your polls! *insert appropriate lolcat here*

I hadn't heard of this before and I think it sounds very awesome in whatever format you decide on.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on September 3rd, 2009 04:42 am (UTC)
Yay! I love a delurk! :) Thanks for the enthusiasm, it was a lot of fun and I loved seeing people kind of find each other in the comments... that was the best bit for me. I'll post up a plan this weekend, hopefully.
acridnymacridnym on September 3rd, 2009 01:31 am (UTC)
I’m another person for keeping the chats in personal ljs. They have a welcoming vibe there that would be harder to capture if they were their own separate community.

Among the posts on inclusiveness, you brought up the idea of a comm for casual vid talk. I’d love to see a place for that, whether on a vid chats comm, between the “serious” modded discussions or in its own comm. Technically, the vidding lj comm is open to all things vidding but in practice it’s mostly vid announcements and I’d be uncomfortable posting any casual “let’s talk vidding!” comments there.

I hope my “worst thing about vid chats” answer didn’t come across as snarky. I loved the chats and even though I only found out about them toward the end, I enjoyed reading through the older ones. I want to expand on the answer I gave because the need for speedy replies that is standard on the net has been one of the biggest barriers for me. When I see a discussion I want to be part of, I like to turn the issues over in my mind for a few days, mentally crafting a response piecemeal. When I do start to write, I write slowly. When I find a post I want to comment on, assuming the post isn’t already too old, the pressure to think, compose, and post my say in the two day window amidst work, vidding, and annoying real life stuff, takes the enjoyment out of it. I would like to see chat topics open and alive for at least two weeks. I think this issue is related to what you said about commenting into a vacuum. I don’t know how it would be accomplished but if the emphasis were on a dialogue, there wouldn’t be the pressure to get all your thoughts out in one big-ass comment.

For vidding chats, I’d like to see intermediate stuff. And I do think the previous chats addressed intermediates (as well as vid-fans at all other levels, which is why I liked them). I want something for vidders who have graduated from WMM and are trying to find their way around Premiere. Something for vidders who have read all the newbie guides, know the deadly sins of talky face, white flashes, and spuffy, and want to take the next step. Good vidding is more than the absence of pet peeve-y mistakes! This ties into the inclusiveness conversation: maybe a reason so many vidders consider themselves newbies is the only other “class” is deified big name vidder.

I’d also like a chat or guide on Avisynth. The otherwise awesome amv tech guide assumes a knowledge of finding, installing, and tweaking aviscripts that I’ve been struggling to obtain.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: TW smilebop_radar on September 3rd, 2009 04:48 am (UTC)
Yay! So happy to have your thoughts. And I agree... I know there are other comms (I think fan_vids is one?) that in theory accept anything chatty about vids but I too feel nervous posting casual non-announcement type stuff there. I'm still not sure what a casual vid talk place would look like but great to hear there's support for it. I'll keep thinking!

I hope my “worst thing about vid chats” answer didn’t come across as snarky.
Not at all! I have that issue all the time. Personally, for the record, I am always happy to have 'late' participation. I think I could include that in a list of guidelines and it would be good to encourage people to pop back to them later, after a few days. Hmm.

omething for vidders who have read all the newbie guides, know the deadly sins of talky face, white flashes, and spuffy, and want to take the next step
That sounds like ME! And omg, yes, to the 'class' thing. Intermediate vidders unite! I have been flailing around in the 'out of newbie but still can't do much tech' stage for soooo long and it's really frustrating.

I'm no good on Avisynth as I'm a Mac vidder, but I am sure there are people out there who could host an Avisynth chat.

I'm going to put up a post calling for specific topics shortly and we'll see how it goes... :)
here's luckheresluck on September 12th, 2009 02:07 pm (UTC)
Just chiming in here to say that I really like the idea of having chats hosted in personal journals, but distributing the hosting -- having it rotate somehow so the work isn't all on you! Like Laura, I've seen a lot of new vid communities just... fall off into nothingness, whereas when someone posts in their own journal, there's usually a group of people already comfortable with that poster who are willing to get the conversation rolling. And if the poster is explicit about the post being an open chat, and that people who don't already know the poster are just as welcome to comment as people who do, that might help the people who tend to think "oh, I don't know this person, I can't jump in!" And (as several people have pointed out) announcing chats in communities would help spread the word beyond the individual poster's circle of acquaintance.

Um. Sorry for the ramble! I just really liked the vidding chats (even though I was often reading them after the fact and thus not contributing) and would love to see them continue. And I would totally be up for hosting one or more if it seems that distributed hosting is the way to go.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Aishwarya lanternbop_radar on September 13th, 2009 06:00 am (UTC)
if the poster is explicit about the post being an open chat, and that people who don't already know the poster are just as welcome to comment as people who do
Great idea! I'm currently putting together a little FAQ/kit for hosters so will include that. Thank you for the willingness to host--that's terrific! It's great to be getting them out to a wider audience--should make them even more interesting! (And it will be nice for me not to be always hosting. ;p)