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16 October 2006 @ 03:35 pm
BSG 3.03 Exodus  

I fess up. I teared up on more than one occasion during this episode, and I may have uttered a sob or two on occasion. I was a bit miffed by the whole 'one hour earlier' construction, and this episode is obviously a necessary bridge between the premiere and getting them off New Caprica, but it still managed to tearjerk me, despite the obvious limitations in its format.

The problems I was having with Fat!Lee's characterisation were mysteriously absent in this episode. Possibly because he was only on screen for half a minute. Possibly because he wasn't actually stuffing his face in the scene with his father. And yes, that was one of the scenes where I got teary. Lee can still make me cry--when Adama asked him not to make him cry, I completely lost it. And I said I didn't care any more! Clearly this was a BIG FAT LIE and I was in DENIAL. *owns her immaturity*

Not much Kara in this ep, but I see why. I wondered if they were forshadowing Galactica's Sharon rescuing her in the conversation Sharon had with Anders. In which case, there will be two frightened and conflicted mothers fighting their way off the planet.

Poor, poor Sharon! My heart bled for her in the scene with Three--especially when she said 'Adama wouldn't lie to me'. She's fought so hard for those dog tags, and now she's going to learn that the person she put so much faith in betrayed her. And gods help Galactica's crew when Sharon turns on them!

Three's dreams were very mysterious. Was it just one Three model having them? And the human oracle seemed to imply that the Cylons worshipped a specific god--i.e. one of the human gods. I'd always thought (and now I'm not sure why) that they believed all the human gods were one. Of course, the human oracle could be putting her own spin on things, but it was very interesting to see the interaction between oracle and Cylon--particularly the oracle saying Three must be 'terrified'. In other religious themes, I really enjoyed seeing the ceremony between Galactica and Pegasus crews. The reading was perfect for the humans right now--but it is equally relevant for the Cylons. There are divisions on both sides of the war ('Consensus used to be so easy').

My heart bled for Gaius--it was surprisingly painful to see a rift between him and Six. I'm also still caught up in Jammer's plot--I really want to see what happens to him. But the other character who I really felt for this episode, despite myself, was Ellen. Her fragility in the early scene with Tigh was heartbreaking--she seemed on the verge of telling him, before they were interrupted. It seemed as if she knew not only that she'd done something dispicable, but that she'd done something that Tigh himself would not forgive--and yet not even the possible loss of his love could stop her from 'saving' him. What she did was appalling, and part of me wanted to see her punished. But another part hurt for her, especially when she finally crumbled and told Tigh the truth--the horror in both their eyes was very powerful.

I also found Tigh's journey interesting. At the start of the episode he told the Chief to pull it together or he'd risk all their lives. Now he's facing his own personal crisis--will he be able to pull himself together sufficiently? Humans seemed so fragile and self-destructive in this episode, betraying each other and bickering when they should all be fighting to get themselves rescued.

It was interesting to see how insistent Roslin has been on guarding Maya and her child. I think Anders has a brain--I'm sure he's guessed who the child is. Probably his lackeys have too. I think it's going to prove a hard secret to keep hidden for very long.

There was a lot of tension in this episode and no catharsis--appropriate for a briding episode. I got a lump in my throat at all the 'it's on!', 'they've got the keys', 'Galactica's on its way: we're getting off this rock' moments. But I've also got a lot of fear about what will be lost in the struggle. Sharon's child? Sharon? That seems almost certain, but what else? What about Kara and Leoben and Kasey?

And 18 hours. We've still got to get to (and through) those 18 hours of Pegasus waiting for Galactica. And that means more ouchy Lee moments. Eep!

ETA: First time round this post read 'get them off New Krypton'. *headdesk* Possibly my funniest typo ever. Clearly I'm not cut out for this dual fandom thing... ;-)
 
 
Current Mood: anxiousanxious
 
 
 
Gio: BSG - Anderspaddies on October 16th, 2006 08:49 am (UTC)
Still loving your commentary. :x:x:x
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 16th, 2006 11:57 am (UTC)
Awww, thank you! *g*
darenothope: Ericadarenothope on October 16th, 2006 11:50 am (UTC)
I just got past the first paragraph ... and had to comment ... New Krypton??? Do you have SR on the brain?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: bsg kara eeek!bop_radar on October 16th, 2006 11:54 am (UTC)
HAhahaaaaaaa!!! OMG! That is the funniest typo EVER! *flails*
I am totally in Superman-brain. *blush*
Um, thanks for pointing that one out!
*rushes to ETA*
The First Evil: Laura - Girl Power - Nyusziasta77 on October 16th, 2006 04:43 pm (UTC)
Three's dreams were very mysterious. Was it just one Three model having them?

Hmmm, interesting observation. I'm still a little iffy on the Cylon collective and how much they share with each other. Galactica Boomer, Sharon and Caprica have individual personalities and relationships. We don't see very Six model wanting to jump Baltar. So it's possible it's just this Three that is having prophetic dreams. But why?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 16th, 2006 11:45 pm (UTC)
Same. I'm still iffy as well. With the Six's, I get the sense that it's only because individual model(s) have been thrust together with him by circumstance/for a purpose that the attraction has then grown. So I understand that much. But what I find more puzzling is the prophetic nature... Both Three and Leoben now have claims to some kind of 'destiny'. With Leoben, is it just the one Leoben model that believes he and Kara are destined? It seems so. And that's interesting to me because it indicates that the Cylons were differentiated from one another before contact with humans. For a long time, I thought it was contact with humans alone that differentiated them.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG poor slutty Ellenbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 01:00 am (UTC)
IIRC, *Adama* thinks Hera is dead (it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I think Laura only talked about it with Cottle and Torry; I'm not even sure that Maya realizes Hera is part-Cylon). If I'm wrong about all this, mea culpa, but it would be just like BSG to have Sharon turn based on a mistaken belief that Adama had something to do with it when he *didn't*. 'Cause that's completely tragic in light of all they've gone through together in the past year.
Ohhhh, you know, I think you're right. My memory is fuzzy--I've only watched that ep once, having had to delete it off my harddrive, but the dvds just came and I'll be doing a rewatch, so hopefully I'll be plot-blunder free soon. And I totally afree that it would be very BSG-like to have Sharon turn based on a mistaken belief. That actually seems far MORE likely, now I think about it.

I don't think Tigh will be able to stop himself from making an example of her. He's been *so hardcore* re: collaborators -- last week, he didn't bat his good eye at the thought of the tens of human casualties who'd die in that bombing because from his POV, they deserved it for collaborating -- I don't think he'll be able to barter or negotiate for mercy where she's concerned. And that makes it all *so much worse* because she really did do it for him.
*nods* Yes, they've set that up so well--showing Tigh's extremity, his intolerance of anyone else's hesitation or qualms, his aboslutism. And yet, he loves Ellen and it will tear him apart to do this. And somewhere inside she knows he's never going to forgive her, but she felt so trapped and driven to it by love. So powerful.
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 01:24 am (UTC)
I *love* reading everything you get from the episodes, especially since I haven't been watching long enough to get all of the layers. Stash and I watched "together", which basically consisted of running back and forth between the tv and computer going "omg omg omg", "I hate her!", "I love him!", "That was sooo sad!" and of course "LEOBEN!" *g* I thought it was an awesome episode and loved it to pieces. It's awesome to come here and have all of the blanks filled in. Yay!

One of the most intriguing parts of the ep for me is something that you mentioned: the rift between the Cylons. *bites nails*

*is so happy to use new icon* :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 01:29 am (UTC)
Darlin'! You are HERE! *hugs* I was missing you! Yay, I'm so glad you are enjoying it. And I have new icons too!!

I got an idea for a Kara/Leoben drabble this morning, and I've found a Kara/Leoben song I'd love to vid too. It's clearly an obsession--I'm such a traitor! Poor unloved Lee. :-(

I can't wait for the next ep. I agree this ep was great, but I know how well BSG puts together double eps--and it's next ep that's going to have all the payoff. *bites nails*
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 01:51 am (UTC)
Yes~! I am here! RL got in the way there over the weekend, and I was starting to have withdrawal. *clings*

I love that you are coming over to the dark side with me! Just that one moment of him walking the stairs and watching her had me shivering and clutching the blanket and FLAILING all dramatic like. It was awesome. (Although, hee, I got the boyfriend to watch the season 3 premiere with me and he's into it and everything and then CKR comes on the screen and boyfriend almost *yells* "OH! This is why you wanna watch this show!" And then I explained, no. That's not it at all. But I don't know if he believed me! There are many more reasons!)

I was wanting to ask, is there some really interesting backstory with Ellen? Because you seem to have a lot more sympathy for her than I do. I really found her actions vile. I can't help it.

*loves your icon*
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 01:53 am (UTC)
And I would love to hear more about your creative impulses with Kara/Leoben. *bounces*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 02:03 am (UTC)
Ha! Yes, well, sadly I can't vid. But it's possible I'll drabble. I have a Leoben puzzle though. Because initially I thought that ALL the Leoben models were obsessed with Kara/destiny. But now I figure it's just one model (or that's what they've shown us). And I'm struggling to get my head around the idea of an individual Cylon being differentiated in this way. Once I do some thinking on that I may feel more prepared to write about him.

D'ya like this icon?! I's my fave!
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 02:17 am (UTC)
I was going to say in the last post... I *LOVE* that icon! It the coolest.

And I'm struggling to get my head around the idea of an individual Cylon being differentiated in this way.

When I was chatting with justabi, I got the impression that different Sharon's had different true loves. Did I get that right? And if I did, is there a difference between her and Leoben?

And when I start to annoy you with all of these questions, let me know!!!! I dont' want to be a pest. ;D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 02:31 am (UTC)
I LOVE your questions! Ask away! It's just great having new BSG fans around. *g*

And yes, you're right about Sharon. That was a Season One plot arc. Basically we learnt that Sharon was a Cylon at the end of the mini-series. The Sharon on Galactica was a sleeper agent. She and Helo landed on Caprica as the Cylon invasion occurred. They were mobbed by refugees. Helo gave up his place on the viper to Gaius, and Sharon had to leave him behind. (They weren't an item--just Viper captain and lackey.) That Sharon was in love with the Chief. And when she found out she was a Cylon, it all fell apart.

Meanwhile, Helo was left behind on Caprica. A Sharon model was sent to him and she seduced him in the attempt to get a child. But then she developed real feelings for him and betrayed her own 'people' to be with him. Helo took her with him back to Galactica--and that's the Sharon that had the baby with him.

The difference between the Sharon models and Leoben is that the Sharons split apart and evolved individual feelings only after contact with humans. It's the same with the Sixes. One Six was sent to Gaius, and she developed real feelings for him, but the others remain dismissive.

But one Leoben at least believed he was destined to be with Kara before any contact with her. Why? Why just that Leoben? (if that is the case) *puzzles*
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 02:40 am (UTC)
But one Leoben at least believed he was destined to be with Kara before any contact with her. Why? Why just that Leoben? (if that is the case) *puzzles*

Hmmm... maybe the Leobens have further evolved to having separate emotions/loves? Is that a possibility? Because that would be kick ass, and even more of a reason to be omgsoinlove with the pairing. *g*

And since I've forgotten to say it before now, I adore Sharon. Her whole ordeal hurts my soul. *sobs*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 02:51 am (UTC)
maybe the Leobens have further evolved to having separate emotions/loves? Is that a possibility? Because that would be kick ass, and even more of a reason to be omgsoinlove with the pairing.
Hee! Anything's a possiblity. However, I have other suspicions. So far we've seen the female Cylon models used to seduce humans--Six and Sharon appeal to different types of guys, but are both utterly effective. We haven't seen a Cylon male work on a woman this way. Could that be what we're seeing now? Could Leoben be a Cylon plan to get Galactica's hottest (in both ways) Viper pilot for some nebulous purpose of their own? And if so, does that mean this Leoben really believe what he tells her? I believe he's sincere. But could he have been programmed to believe this in order to make it work? And now of course he's feeling genuine attraction/love--and when that happens, Cylons often betray other Cylons. There's a fic in there somewhere...
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 03:11 am (UTC)
Oh! I LOVE your theory! And yes, I too think he's very sincere. He totally believes everything he's saying (and how much do I love Callum for being able to show that? SO MUCH)and if it leads to further Cylon on Cylon betrayal, then I'm all for that. The Cylons are so interesting! And they become even more interesting when they turn on each other. Woot!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 03:17 am (UTC)
*g* I'm glad you like it. I will muse on it some more and see if a ficlet can be poked and prodded out of me. Cylon internal politics are definitely very interesting.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 02:54 am (UTC)
And since I've forgotten to say it before now, I adore Sharon. Her whole ordeal hurts my soul. *sobs*
Oh, YES! Yes, her ordeal is ouchy. Have you watched 'Barcelona' by laurasha. That has both Sharons' story and integrates them really well--showing how both versions are so alike and so tragic. Her baby! Her baby! Ouch!

And I know you mentioned that a lot of other fans seem more suspicious of Sharon. Well, when you finally watch the earlier seasons you'll see why. She was a wildcard for so long--unpredictable and capable of killing. Like Adama, I feel that I can read her now, so she's not scary to me any more. But what being able to read her includes is knowing that she is going to go crazy when she finds out about Hera. What mother wouldn't? But that craziness could have such devastating consequences.
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 03:19 am (UTC)
Nope, I haven't watched that one yet, but it's been downloaded and I'll get to watch it tomorrow. I've loved the two I've seen so far from your list!

Ah, that's really interesting about Sharon. I am getting a few different viewpoints on her, and I'm loving that! Once again, dreading what comes next in that storyline, but very very excited.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on October 18th, 2006 06:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 18th, 2006 06:50 am (UTC)
Hee! Butt in! Please! If you can enlighten me, that'd be great. And yes, I agree with everything you've said. I supect he gets dreams/visions. Your analysis of Leoben is spot on. But what I'm curious about is whether this is an individual Leoben or ALL the Leobens. Does that make sense? It seems such a defining trait of his that I can't imagine another Leoben without that belief. But surely there can't be multiple clones wandering around lusting after Kara?!
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on October 18th, 2006 07:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 18th, 2006 08:21 am (UTC)
Oh, good--I was hoping I wasn't the only one wondering that. And I guess I'm leaning towards just one of them too. Oh and that was a great scene with Starbuck and Sharon. And I'd love to see a Sharon/Roslin showdown!
Mayhem Parva: Gaius dance (paddies)raincitygirl on October 18th, 2006 08:54 pm (UTC)
Different Eight copies are in love with different men (although Tyrol and Helo are actually fairly similar, personality-wise, which suggests that each copy has a "type" they're attracted to). Caprica Six is the only Six who seems to have any interest whatsoever in Baltar. Well, there's Head Six, but I try not to guess her motivations, because they're so opaque. However, and again getting back to the idea of each model having a "type" and having similar thought processes, Baltar pulled Gina out of her planned suicide in RS2 by describing Head Six's reaction to pyramid games. So Gina, despite being a very different copy than Caprica Six or Head Six, gets enjoyment out of hte same type of experiences.

My guess is that upon initial download/activation/birth, each copy starts out with the same basic template as every other copy of the same model, and the more they experience, the more individuated they become. But they're still similar in personality, though not the same. And of course, the more individuated they become, the harder it becomes for other copies to predict their behaviour and the less likely they are to put the stability of the Cylon polity as a whole above their personal wishes.

i.e. Lab Observer Six and Lab Observer Doral on Caprica in S1 seemed to have some concerns about Sharon's ability to maintain her objectivity, although they didn't predict her actually turning on them. And Head Six refers to Boomer as "weak", and says Sharon is "unworthy of the honour" of bearing the next generation. So presumably other models find that the Eight model is more prone to emotionalism and impulsive behaviour, even if they never realised just how bad it could get (from the unity point of view).

Other examples: Boomer and Caprica Six trying to start a revolution; Sharon running away with Helo and thereby taking the next generation with her (presumably wanting to raise the child herself with Helo, rather than Hera being every Cylon's baby on a symbolic level; Gina putting her desire to die forever above the desires of all the non-suicidal Cylons who would also die forever if the Resurrection Ship were destroyed; one copy of Leoben having an ongoing obsession with Starbuck.

Re: Leoben, it looks like Cylons are allowed to do their own thing provided that doesn't actively conflict with the needs of the group. He's off doing his thing with Kara in this fake house, and since he doesn't seem to mind the repeated downloads when Kara repeatedly kills him, nobody seems to be hassling him about not pulling his weight in managing the occupation. Playing mind games with Kara doesn't seem like a very productive use of resources, but it's not actively unhelpful. Maybe they let him go off and do his own thing because they get sick of him rambling on about rivers and streams when they're trying to get stuff done!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 18th, 2006 10:55 pm (UTC)
Lab Observer Six and Lab Observer Doral on Caprica in S1 seemed to have some concerns about Sharon's ability to maintain her objectivity, although they didn't predict her actually turning on them.
That's true--very interesting to look back on now that we've seen Eight under pressure on so many different occasions. Emotionalism and impulsiveness do seem to be part of her make-up. I find the distaste of the other models for her fascinating, because at another level she's arguably the most successful at connecting with humans.

Maybe they let him go off and do his own thing because they get sick of him rambling on about rivers and streams when they're trying to get stuff done!
Hee! I love your take on Leoben! ;-) What a crazy frakked up world New Caprica is! And the Cylons are a LOT less unified than they first appear/they'd like to be.
Mayhem Parva: (ancarett) shrubberyraincitygirl on October 19th, 2006 05:25 am (UTC)
I wonder if the weaknesses of the Eight model are actually features rather than bugs. Similarly with Cavil's strident atheism and Leoben's mysticism. Eight's emotionalism and impulsiveness may be side-effects of a personality type that can better predict and/or manipulate human behaviour, because she's closer to it. Boomer spent several years as a sleeper without ever being suspected. Caprica Six spent two years in a relationship with Baltar, but if her boyfriend had been anybody less self-absorbed than Baltar, she would probably have come across as kinda "off". Not saying another guy would've figured out she was a Cylon, but generally speaking, after two years with someone they'd notice stuff like their girlfriend never talking about her family or any old friends. Not to mention wondering why a mathematical genius is doing industrial espionage and rewriting her boyfriend's algorithms instead of having her own prestigious job. The Eight model seems better at acting human, and seems to have a pretty good handle on how to encourage love and affection. i.e. Sharon playing Helo like a violin in 1.01 through 1.07.

So the Cylons as a whole may have been willing to put up with the Eights being emotional because there are benefits to that type of personality. And for all that the Leobens come across as woolly-headed mystics, they're pretty efficient when they actually focus on something. And may well actually be clairvoyant or at least very intuitive. If you have a model that can do such useful things, you might put up with the fact that they're wandering off on spiritual journeys while the practical-minded Dorals are setting up sanitation systems. The Doral types are much more useful in the short term, but presumably the Leobens are sufficiently useful in other ways (interpreting scripture? inspiring devotion? sensing future events? being extremely creative and imaginative?) that the others let them do their own thing as long as their own thing doesn't get in the way. This Leoben keeping Starbuck in a gilded cage and fucking with her mind doesn't seem to be of any direct help to running New Caprica, but it does neutralise a potential insurgent leader. Thus the active administrators can keep Leoben happy with no cost to their goals, his longshot plan to make Starbuck fall in love with him MIGHT work, and in the meantime, Starbuck's out of action.

And Caprica Six seemed to spend well over six months drifting around postwar Caprica not doing much of anything. If the Cylons were fanatical about everybody having to pull their own weight, presumably she would've been given an assignment long before. And would have been more in the loop in terms of knowing about Baltar's survival. So there does seem to be a certain amount of tolerance for individual eccentricity. Very classically Marxist, with everybody contributing according to their abilities.

At first, the atheistic Cavil seems nonsensical. Given that religious faith seems to be absolutely key to the other models, you'd think someone like that would be viewed as a bad influence. But the Cavils' existence benefits the Cylon polity because while they don't believe in God, they do agree with the other goals of the Cylon polity, and are generally efficient and ruthless. Plus, having a very cynical non-believer in the circle would actually lend balance to group decision-making. Because you'd have one model you knew would be approaching any matter under discussion from a Realpolitik rather than spiritual point of view, and would speak up if they thought faith was clouding the judgment of other models.

If you've got twelve different personality types all working together, you've got a great system of checks and balances, with twelve different points of view increasing the likelihood of finding the most efficient solution to a problem. Maybe tampering with the 'weaknesses' of these models would also reduce the effectiveness of their special talents. The biggest snag is that if everybody stops believing in a common good and working towards an agreed goal, the system sputters to a halt.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Jamie Bamber smrt is sexybop_radar on October 19th, 2006 06:26 am (UTC)
Thanks for sharing your very well-articulated perspective on the Cylons! I've wondered a lot about these issues myself.

Like you, I am inclined to think that the Eight model, like all the models, has certain advantages as well as disadvantages.

Not saying another guy would've figured out she was a Cylon, but generally speaking, after two years with someone they'd notice stuff like their girlfriend never talking about her family or any old friends. Not to mention wondering why a mathematical genius is doing industrial espionage and rewriting her boyfriend's algorithms instead of having her own prestigious job.
*giggle* Um, yeah. I spent the entire first season of BSG hating on Baltar for that. Like, HATING. I used to scream and groan every time he came on screen. I got over it... but yes, I do think a less self-absorbed man would have clued on a little earlier. Though she works super-effectively on a more ego-driven man like Baltar.

presumably the Leobens are sufficiently useful in other ways (interpreting scripture? inspiring devotion? sensing future events? being extremely creative and imaginative?)
Interesting speculation. I'm definitely prepared to believe that they have some genuine clarivoyance/intuition. And there's something spine-tingling in Leoben that for all his rambly metaphors about rivers and such makes me think he really does have an important path/role to play in the overall plot.

So there does seem to be a certain amount of tolerance for individual eccentricity. Very classically Marxist, with everybody contributing according to their abilities.
Yes, that's true. They seem to be more troubled by lack of consensus than by lack of equal weight-pulling.

Plus, having a very cynical non-believer in the circle would actually lend balance to group decision-making. Because you'd have one model you knew would be approaching any matter under discussion from a Realpolitik rather than spiritual point of view, and would speak up if they thought faith was clouding the judgment of other models.
Yes, I really like the inclusion of an atheist in their midst. Especially as he's confrontingly chilling. As an atheist myself, I find his cynicism sympathetic but the rest of his ideology terrifying. And he definitely adds strength to the Cylon 'team'.

Maybe tampering with the 'weaknesses' of these models would also reduce the effectiveness of their special talents. The biggest snag is that if everybody stops believing in a common good and working towards an agreed goal, the system sputters to a halt.
*nods* Absolutely. I'm really enjoying seeing them under pressure as they are now.
Mayhem Parva: (ancarett) shrubberyraincitygirl on October 19th, 2006 11:07 pm (UTC)
*giggle* Um, yeah. I spent the entire first season of BSG hating on Baltar for that. Like, HATING. I used to scream and groan every time he came on screen. I got over it... but yes, I do think a less self-absorbed man would have clued on a little earlier. Though she works super-effectively on a more ego-driven man like Baltar.

Baltar's a cockroach, but he's a very human cockroach. His weaknesses are the weaknesses everybody has, only magnified: egotism, selfishness, hubris, etc. I'm rather hoping he manages to pull off a miracle and get back in with the Colonials, because I don't see much future for him hanging around the Cylons. Loathsome human being though he is, he adds something to the show. It helps that after S1 they quit using him as comic relief so much. I mean, Callis is a very funny actor, but it got old quickly.

And yes, Six worked great on Baltar, because he is, as you say, so ego-driven. Sexuality seems to be the Six model's default option. The Shelley Godfrey Six in 1.07 was doing just fine with Adama right up until she started coming onto him. And poor Gina seemed to think the only way she could thank him for helping her was by sleeping with him. I would've had a good deal more respect for him if he'd turned her down, given that the scene seemed far more like her giving him sex out of gratitude, rather than having sex with him because she was sexually attracted to him. Of course, if Baltar were more worthy of respect he wouldn't be Baltar.

Have you read Fields of Blood, by thepouncer? It's a little 'five things' fic where Baltar does these tiny little things differently and DOESN'T end up complicit in the genocide of humanity. If he had only been slightly less himself...
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on October 20th, 2006 04:27 am (UTC)
Of course, if Baltar were more worthy of respect he wouldn't be Baltar.
That's the truest thing that can be said about him! And I've come to love what he brings to the show. I alway saw him as a timebomb waiting to blow up in the fleet's face. In an oblique way, now that that 'bomb' has gone off (with the Cylon occupation), I feel I can breathe and relax a little with him. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but my reactions to him have always been very visceral and overwhelming.

The fic sounds great! I'll have to check it out. Thanks! *g*
blowjobs for jesuskristiinthedark on October 19th, 2006 12:22 am (UTC)
Yay! Thank you for sharing all of this with me. The BSG universe is just sucking me in deeper and deeper.

My guess is that upon initial download/activation/birth, each copy starts out with the same basic template as every other copy of the same model, and the more they experience, the more individuated they become.

I really love this theory. It makes a lot of sense and there's so much potential for the future that way. Cool.
Mayhem Parva: (sabaceanbabe) bsgraincitygirl on October 19th, 2006 04:10 am (UTC)
Well, I kind of have this theory about the organisational structure of Cylon society, or the lack thereof. It's sort of semi related to what we're talking about here re: Cylon individuation, so I don't feel TOO guilty about spamming you with my old posts.

So, how long have you been watching the show?
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on October 19th, 2006 04:55 pm (UTC)
Oh, no! By all means, spam me with your posts! *g* I am rapidly becoming a rabid fan, so I love to read all of the theories. Your thoughts are particularly awesome, especially about the reactions of the Cylons as to why the humans aren't more appreciative of their efforts.

I'm pretty brand-new to BSG, though. Boppy has been luring me for months, and now I'm playing catch-up now. Loving every minute of it, too.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 01:58 am (UTC)
Oh that's so funny about your BF! Reminds me of when my bf and I were on a plane and I suggested the best inflight movie to watch would be 'cheaper by the dozen 2'. He pulled off his headset and mouthed 'isn't that the guy from Smallville?' *eyeroll*. Hee!

Ellen's pretty damn unlikeable. I hated her when she first came on the show. But this show's got a way of twisting round and showing even the characters you dislike to be more human and more vulnerable and perhaps easier to identify with than you'd perhaps like to believe. My sympathy for Ellen has crept up on me. Essentially, she's got noone--she pinned her whole life on Tigh and Tigh's career and she's hated by a lot of the other characters (for legitimate reasons). I still don't *like* her, but I have sympathy for her--I understand her a little better now. Though she's a very very small-minded woman, and her sexuality is the only card she's ever known how to play--it's sad. I just like how well crafted she is.

Her actions were vile: I agree. Although I also think Tigh's extremism is pretty terrifying. Blowing up civilians in a marketplace? I'd have qualms about that. I like the dynamic that's been established--since the person Ellen wants to 'save' is the last person who would want to be saved at this expense.
blowjobs for jesus: ds ray you love mekristiinthedark on October 17th, 2006 02:13 am (UTC)
Okay, yes, that makes sense. I can see that I would probably feel sympathy for her too with being such a well-thought out character. And I completely I agree that Tigh's actions are beyond scary, but... whatever has happened to him since arriving on New Caprica has seriously broken him. I mean, he's tough as nails and apparently willing to do anything for his cause, but there's some part of him that is either very weak, or missing all together. That, I don't know, just makes me want to cry.

I like the dynamic that's been established--since the person Ellen wants to 'save' is the last person who would want to be saved at this expense.

Oooh! Excellent point! Eeeeeee!!!! That makes me excited and fills me with dread at the same time! (why do I get the feeling that that's going to be a reoccuring emotion whilst watching this show?) *g*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG baby with that Cylonbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 02:23 am (UTC)
I mean, he's tough as nails and apparently willing to do anything for his cause, but there's some part of him that is either very weak, or missing all together.
Yup. And it's even more interesting if you've watched him over a longer period. He's been shown to be very limited, and at times very weak. He's seemed so superficially strong on New Caprica, but I wonder how he'll really cope back on Galactica. He's the kind of man that needs a war.

That makes me excited and fills me with dread at the same time! (why do I get the feeling that that's going to be a reoccuring emotion whilst watching this show?) *g*
Hee! That's the emotion I have about Sharon right now. And I'll have again and again with bsg--for sure!
weissmanweissman on October 17th, 2006 12:15 pm (UTC)
Great commentary, plus I would never beliee that Sharon would go against Adama. I think she would forgive him, like he forgave her. Roslyn thats another story.

Bob
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Adama Dear Livejournalbop_radar on October 17th, 2006 11:36 pm (UTC)
Thanks! *g* You could be right about Sharon's resentment being focussed on Roslin. I would certainly like to see her forgive Adama.
weissmanweissman on October 19th, 2006 11:32 am (UTC)
I think she will. Basically because Adama is like her father.

Bob
Kate: Gaius and Sixmskatej on October 17th, 2006 01:53 pm (UTC)
Boppy, I *sobbed* during Adama's speech to the crew at the end. That was so moving.

I must admit I wanted more Kara in this episode, but I was fine with minimal Lee (not because I don't love Lee but because I'm not interested in Lee scenes if he's not going to be part of the main action). I found the shot of Leoben watching Kara with Kasey quite powerful; love is a prevailing theme in BSG, and I like how humans and cylons both experience it deeply but in different ways.

I also found the Six/Gauis scene painful. It's never easy seeing somebody in pain, no matter how responsible they are for it, and both of them are suffering so much. When he asked her to stay after their fight, I got a lump in my throat, and when she *did* stay... that was just perfect. All they have is each other.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Dee Fat!Leebop_radar on October 17th, 2006 11:49 pm (UTC)
Boppy, I *sobbed* during Adama's speech to the crew at the end. That was so moving.
*clings* Me tooooo!

I'm not interested in Lee scenes if he's not going to be part of the main action
Yup, I hear you! I'm not enjoying how sidelined he is at the moment, but since he IS sidelined then I'm glad there's not 'token' scenes.

I found the shot of Leoben watching Kara with Kasey quite powerful; love is a prevailing theme in BSG, and I like how humans and cylons both experience it deeply but in different ways.
Yes. It was powerful. And you're right about them experiencing it differently--though I can't quite get my head around the cylon experience of love yet. Any thoughts?

When he asked her to stay after their fight, I got a lump in my throat, and when she *did* stay... that was just perfect. All they have is each other.
*nods* Yes, that was very moving. And it was interesting for me because normally in a scene like that I wouldn't want her to stay. There's an asshat guy wanting a woman to put up with his shit... but in this case I sympathise with both of them so well. *loves*
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on October 18th, 2006 06:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on October 18th, 2006 06:53 am (UTC)
I love when they show little rituals and daily life stuff too!

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I love when they show little rituals and daily life stuff too!

<i<>Do you think Sharon's gonna die?</i>
Noo... but I do think she might completely lose it. Or get left behind on the planet with the other Cylons and have them turn on her. So many possibilities!

Yes, I find Starbuck's relationship with Sharon interesting. Starbuck's really hardcore about hating all Cylons and she likes to think she'd kill Sharon if she could. But I think she also remembers being co-pilots with her. And of course she's friends with Helo. But she's still deeply uncomfortable with Sharon, I think. But could motherhood issues unite them? Again, so many ways they COULD go with this. Can't wait to see which they choose!