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12 November 2006 @ 12:59 pm
Battlestar Galactica 6.07 Measures of Contrition  

I thought the humans, Lee included, were a little slow to catch on to the fact that the Cylons had been infected by a disease. But hey. It was very interesting to watch Lee command the team that visited the infected ship, especially since that team included Athena. So far we haven't really seen Lee in a plot where he has close contact with Cylons, but I'd assumed his feelings towards them were standard to the rest of the military--suspicion, hatred, conviction in their 'otherness'--and this was confirmed in this episode. The fact that he called Athena Sharon first and then Athena suggests that he still thinks of her as Sharon (who shot his father and was revealed as a Cylon). Her status in the team is obviously one that many humans would be uneasy with at this point in time. Although we haven't seen that directly, I was comfortable assuming that. And her 'otherness' was in evidence on the infected ship. Of course it made sense to bring her, but her compassion for the dying Cylons set her apart from the others. she was drawn to the Cylons and you could see the humans being wary around her. And Lee completely freaked out when she went over to the other Eight model.

The contrast between Helo and Lee was very interesting. Both of them have severed as officers very well. Both strive for the objectivity necessary to do their jobs but at times hit a point where they can't continue to follow orders. In the opening scene we saw Helo advocate 'taking no chances' with the live Cylons and Lee advocate holding fire--at the tactical level a reversal of what we later learnt their approaches were at the strategic level.

I found Helo very sympathetic, and while Roslin accused him of not remembering who the enemy was, I don't think it was completely fair. When Lee first asked why keep the Cylons alive, Helo replied 'to interrogate them for evidence'. His response was unemotional--and a good tactical decision. I don't think, under battle circumstances, he is influenced that much by his relationship with Sharon. However, no matter how hard everyone strives for objectivity, individual's personal experiences do influence their decisions on the big matters--as we saw with Helo, Roslin, Adama and Lee in this episode.

Helo is a more vehement spokesperson against genocide than Athena. Athena could have gone to Adama and pleaded but she would never do that--she's made a commitment to Galactica and it's very very important to her. But in order to be with her Helo's had to rationalise things for himself to such an extent that the 'humanity' of the Cylons is not in doubt to him. And therefore to him it is genocide.

Adama also has a more complicated view of the Cylons--he trusts Athena absolutely and he's always been willing to explore the similarity and differences between the two races with open eyes. So I wasn't surprised he handballed the decision on genocide to Roslin. He's fighting a war and he'll fight it until his dying breath, but deciding to wipe the Cylons out completely is a radical move for him and one that he'd find difficult to make on his own. Following orders he can do.

In this episode we saw that the time on New Caprica has toughened Roslin to the Cylons. She hardened against Helo when he brought it up. Though even before New Caprica she may have been more willing to consider genocide. She's always had the survival of the human race as her first and foremost objective, and her one-eyedness in this is matched by Lee's.

Lee makes an exception for Helo's child, but he didn't state how he justified Athena. This led him into direct conflict with Helo, and my sympathies were split. I think Helo's right that the humans would be collectively losing part of their souls if they wiped out the Cylons. And he's also right that the others don't want to say it, don't want to face it, would rather HE carry that burden for them. Adama's silence and later non-investigation implies some comfort with Helo's actions.

Poor Helo though! He must have felt so incredibly alone in arguing that point of view, especially arguing it against the Admiral's son. And I loved Athena's speech--'this Cylon will keep her word even if it means being the last Cylon in the universe'. I also love that although she kept her word herself, she stayed with Helo. His heart, his compassion is his strength. I like that he doesn't define himself as a traitor, even though that's how others will judge him. In his own way, he's serving the human race by protecting its soul. And I'm glad he has Sharon.

Gaius
OMG! Gaius! Just when I stop hating the little rat he gets tortured. Wouldn't you know it?! It's fascinating to see how his standard lying and bullshitting doesn't wash with the Cylons. And as I expected his brain had to kick into a new gear to get out of the situation. I found the torture itself very hard to watch but was riveted to his projection with Six-in-his-head. And Six obviously still has some feelings for him judging by her squeemishness about the torture.

Gaius's torture was nicely paralleled to the humans' treatment of the infected Cylons--both races are carrying out attrocities on each other now and both display disdain for each other. However, the responses of the tortured were radically different--the Cylon told the truth promptly, whereas Gaius had already lied so much he had to dig out a more complicated manipulation. And a very strange one it was too--I was reminded of knowing the face of god being equated with madness for the Cylons. So fascinating.

Other notes:
- The humans know Gaius is alive and think he's working with them--interesting.
- Roslin telling Lee that 'they may be ready to die but it doesn't mean that one of them won't jump at a second chance' was kind of odd. Shouldn't Lee know that better than anyone?
 
 
Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
 
 
 
Kate: Gaius and Six SEXmskatej on November 12th, 2006 01:22 pm (UTC)
What did you make of Three's reaction to Gaius saying he loved her (because she thought he was talking to her)? I found that very curious because I've supsected for a while that she's attracted to him.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on November 12th, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC)
That was interesting. I wasn't that surprised but then I couldn't at all work out why. Apart from the fact that I think Three's been jealous of the fact that she's never experienced love. Cylons have that obsession, and she's been shown as jealous of Six for that reason. I'm not sure I saw it as personal to Gaius though. It's interesting that Three seems to be 'borrowing' experiences from other Cylons--she had that vision about Eight's child (and feeling love when she held it in her arms), and now she's connecting to Gaius. Neither experience is singular to her. It's interesting.

If Six-in-Gaius's-mind IS his subconscious, I thought it was incredibly perceptive of him to play it the way he did with the religious echo. It's also interesting that he doesn't deceive her consciously.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 03:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 03:38 am (UTC)
Oh Helo. I was so nervous and kept going "don't get thrown into the brig again".
I know! Me too! I've seen a lot of fandom anger at Helo but I'm a big sop where he's concerned. (And I found the 'command centre lights' line very romantic too.)

I love that Athena was willing to wipe out her people, in order to show her comitment to Galactica. And that it ended up being a human who sabotaged their genocide.
I know--that was perfect.

Kristi made an interesting remark that if Athena were to download would the antibodies in her body spread to the others just as the virus would?
Yes, that IS interesting! I'd love for that to be the case just because of the plot suspense it could create if they revisit this concept. However, I suspect, no antibodies wouldn't spread the same way a disease would. Who knows though?

Gaius is fascinating! I'm enjoying reading Six-in-his-head as his subconscious at the moment, but I suspect there's some greater Plan with him that she may be a part of. It's fun to read that dynamic in different ways in the meantime though.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 03:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Apollo towelbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 05:24 am (UTC)
saw that, but I just love him so very much, and I think he made some valid arguements on the show so I can't be mad at him.
Me neither! I think someone had to put forward the argument that he did. And as I say, I'm a total sop for him--always have been.

Lee! Black shirt of hotness! The Sexy is back! And he talks to Laura! Laura knows who he is! JOY! And he's not all moochy-ready-to-kill-himself or mooning-over-Kara. It is a joy to behold.

Now he and Helo need to start making out. *nods* Sorry, I'm in a daft mood today!
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 05:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on November 13th, 2006 05:45 am (UTC)
Ugh! Icon of HOTNESS! *giggle*
Between Apollos shirt of tightness and the excellent lighting on Helo's cheekbones I'm suprised I remember anything at all.
Heeeeee. This is SO TRUE. And I loved that Lee could hardly look at Helo during that scene. Because only last ep they were all chummy and supportive workout buddies. And I like that Helo's wife is a Major Issue for Lee. That gives him extra motivation to rip Helo's clothes off draw Helo away from her. (Though I actually like Sharon and don't really want Helo to cheat, whereas I don't give a damn if Lee cheats on Dee or not.) Ah, slash, how happy you make me sometimes!
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 05:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Apollo towelbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 05:59 am (UTC)
2 hot men+guns=guh
*nods vehemently*

Apollo's "never let me do that again" had me thinking Apollo wanted Helo and him to have lots of calorie burning sex to keep him fit.
Yes please! \o/ And yes, they're getting all hot and sweaty together... this is very pleasing. *g*

I really really like the mental image of Helo/Apollo. Like really.
It seems ultimate. Especially after this ep which showed that they have opposed but potentially complementary moral codes: Helo's all heart and Lee's very pragmatic but both are completely determined and committed, and oh, couldn't they just be that committed to having sex with one another?! WHY NOT??? They could bond over how being friends with Kara is Very Hard Work...

Conundrum much.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 06:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 06:59 am (UTC)
Like Apollo's muscled legs wrapped around Helo's sturdy waist.
Mmmmm.... I like this speculation! I reckon they would switch. Lee's such a girl, but on the other hand Helo's so loving and giving and so on. Though perhaps Lee would have to bottom to balance the power dynamic, what with him tempting Helo away from Sharon... that seems only fair. But hey, I am NOT FUSSY as far as those two are concerned.

I think Kara would be a slasher and she'd realize how hot the two of them would be together. I read a fic once where Starbuck drunkenly dared the two to kiss. It was good but stopped before any actual porn happened, which made me sad.
Oh that is so ANNOYING! And yes, I'm 100% sure that Kara would back the hotness of them together. Ok, now I really really want Helo/Lee fic...
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 07:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on November 13th, 2006 07:24 am (UTC)
Ha! I snagged that icon too! (even though I actually find Kara/Lee superhot)

Helo is really fucking tall and those A-shaped walls need to get some play.They do! He's soooo tall! It's so great! There'd be lots of straining muscles... it would be wonderful.

She'd keep on 'accidently' stumbling upon them and then she'd go, "I'll be in my bunk."
Heeeeee. That would make a cute fic. Kara stumbling in at (in)appropriate moments and Helo and Lee being all 'grrr... that girl!' about it. I think Lee would be completely baffled as to why Kara was suddenly hang around him again... a LOT. Whereas Helo would totally get it and just roll his eyes and think, 'oh well, if I have to put up with Kara stalking us, that's a small price to play...'

I squeeled at the two of them being in the same scene.
Heee. You didn't hear any of that genocide dialogue did you! That's ok... I had to watch twice, personally. ;-) And even then I was mesmerised by the beauty. The cheek bones! The sculpted shoulders! The black tshirt of porn! Couldn't they have held the discussion about genocide in the workout room? No? I suppose not... *mopes*
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 07:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 08:13 am (UTC)
Dear GODS .... MICROPHONE! *flails* And um, hands, and shoulders, and facial expression. *keels over ded*

A couple of episodes ago he was standing next to Dee (boo) and she barely reached his shoulders. Tall guys are so damn hot.
Mmmmmmhhhhmmmmmmmm... *loves the tall*

OMG, that's totally what would happen. Helo would be wise to their m/m hotness and Apollo would think she was up to something.
*nods* And Helo would just wrap an arm around Apollo's shoulders and steer him away saying 'really... you've got to stop worrying about it! I'm sure she's not up to anything.' And Lee could be all *angst!face* 'But how do you know?! Helo: I just know.

And Apollo would be all baffled cause Cally would blush and giggle everytime he walked onto the hangar deck. Yes this definately needs to be ficage.
Heeeeee. Yes. Now, who can we corrupt? *looks all around* *points pointedly at the microphone photo*

Sweet dreams! ;-)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 07:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 10:19 pm (UTC)
And what about Rosilin. I think she'd bring them into her office and say how she hoped they could continue their relationship but keep a profesional attitude.
Definitely! And Lee would blush and stutter and his cheek would do that muscle twitch thing--because Roslin's good opinion means so much to him. But Helo would be strong and determined and drag him outside and distract him with blow jobs. *nods*

then Roslin would call in her aid lady (what the hell is her name?) and say, "We'll they're not making babies but that's damn hot."
Heeeeeeee. Indeed! Ok, where is little k when we need her?! WHERE? Probably to busy with CKR somewhere... Do you think if I made her a Leoben thing she'd write us our Helo/Lee smutfic? Because I could dangle a carrot in her direction... I really could...
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 13th, 2006 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 12:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 03:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kasey Helo's lollypopbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 10:42 pm (UTC)
Apologies in advance
The use of this icon in this context is NOT acceptable I know, but I couldn't help myself... *giggles*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Cybrids just wanna have funbop_radar on November 13th, 2006 10:43 pm (UTC)
Re: Apologies in advance
And dear god, this comments section is a complete WRITE OFF as far as serious meta is concerned... *headdesk* I do my best, and it just always turns into PORN! ;-)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 13th, 2006 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Apologies in advance - bop_radar on November 13th, 2006 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 12:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 01:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 12:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 12:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 01:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 01:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 01:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 12:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 01:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 01:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 01:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - kristiinthedark on November 14th, 2006 02:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Also, let's picspam... - bop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 03:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Lee/Helo - Torn - syliasyliasyliaasta77 on November 14th, 2006 02:52 am (UTC)
Like Apollo's muscled legs wrapped around Helo's sturdy waist.

Not that I'm complaining, but it's going to be impossible to get that image out of my head. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: BSG Apollo towelbop_radar on November 14th, 2006 02:59 am (UTC)
*giggle* Yeah, sorry... ;-)
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on November 14th, 2006 03:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
The First Evil: Helo - jenahvilleasta77 on November 14th, 2006 02:50 am (UTC)
However, no matter how hard everyone strives for objectivity, individual's personal experiences do influence their decisions on the big matters--as we saw with Helo, Roslin, Adama and Lee in this episode.

As much as I agree with Lee and Roslin's POV, there is no question that their opinions have been formed, in part, by their experiences. I do have to wonder if Laura would have at least hesitated in her decision if this had all happened before New Caprica.

Helo is a more vehement spokesperson against genocide than Athena. Athena could have gone to Adama and pleaded but she would never do that--she's made a commitment to Galactica and it's very very important to her. But in order to be with her Helo's had to rationalise things for himself to such an extent that the 'humanity' of the Cylons is not in doubt to him. And therefore to him it is genocide.

He really did have to convince himself that there was humanity in Sharon in order to stay with her and defend his relationship with her to everyone. And if he truly believes that she was able to change and that Cylons have the ability to become individuals than how can they wipe out a race before it's had the chance to evolve to it's next level?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kasey Helo's lollypopbop_radar on November 14th, 2006 03:05 am (UTC)
And now back to some actual meta... (after the interlude of porn speculation)

As much as I agree with Lee and Roslin's POV, there is no question that their opinions have been formed, in part, by their experiences. I do have to wonder if Laura would have at least hesitated in her decision if this had all happened before New Caprica.
Yes, I had to wonder that as well.

He really did have to convince himself that there was humanity in Sharon in order to stay with her and defend his relationship with her to everyone. And if he truly believes that she was able to change and that Cylons have the ability to become individuals than how can they wipe out a race before it's had the chance to evolve to it's next level?
Ah ha! And the Cylons have evolved before--they may evolve again. And I thought it worked perfectly to have Helo be the one to sabotage the plan rather than Sharon. I liked that he was more insistent about her humanity than she was--because that's what it takes for him to be with her. And I'm sure his position on this has firmed up in the face of everyone's prejudice. There's nothing like being treated unfairly to make you even more committed to a cause.