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06 December 2006 @ 05:14 pm
Insomniac ramblings on BSG  
Well on Lee, really. (Quelle surprise!) Unfinished Business has turned me into a zombie. I can't sleep! I've never been insomniac before. At first I blamed the two-hour long yoga class I went to on Monday night, but it's Wednesday now, and I've been twitching for three whole days, and it's my brain that won't switch off, not my body. Haven't been like this since my first infatuation with Clex. So I'm going to attempt to write my way out of this... this is more for my own benefit than anyone else's but feel free to share your thoughts on my insanity on whatever.

I've been ODing on BSG meta this week, post-UB. Unfortunately this led to me leaving embarrassingly long rambles about Lee's feelings for Kara in other people's journals. *blush*

Then supacat and I had our regular post-BSG-ep catch-up. Since she's a Kara-perspective girl and I'm a Lee-perspective girl, we were both a little tentative at first this week, but we've got a neat (did I actually just use the adjective 'neat'?!) little habit of calling 'character amnesty' before any particularly controversial calls--calls that the other would find unfair if they remained purely in their own character's perspective. This way, we can each take a step back momentarily and be a little more objective when required! Treading carefully, we rehashed pretty much the entire episode, and as always, while I thought I knew what was going on with Kara, supacat had heaps more to say. And I think I went some way towards answering her 'OMG! What was Lee thinking there?!' questions.

Lee as initiator
I pointed out that from Lee's perspective in the flashback scenes Kara was sending him signals, whereas supacat said that Kara read more as just awkward. Both views make sense. There's an undercurrent between them, but Lee's more consciously acting on it than Kara is, though both are influenced by article--the stares a bit longer than otherwise. When Lee's at his most confident, he reads Kara's teasing him as a sign of attraction. So it was Lee, not Kara who had an 'agenda' that night. I still don't know how early Lee decided to act, but I do think he saw the two of them ending up alone together at the end of the night as a good sign. Whereas, it didn't mean so much to Kara--or she didn't think much of it, it was just normal to her. Lee's already flirting with Kara by the time he offers drinks, but Kara asks quite firmly 'where's Dee?' and seems to be reminding him that they're attached. Which brings us too...

Like dating like versus dating one's opposite
Kara and Anders are similar people--they're both action-based, not intellect-based. They don't overanalyse. When they are forced to confront something, they do so by abrupt action, not by discussing it at length (eg Anders's abrupt exit from the Circle, their near silent breakup). In a relationship, they work well because they're both really good at enjoying themselves physically.

Lee and Dee are also alike. They're quieter, more thoughtful, and while they also enjoy the physical, they are more interested in the emotional aspects of a relationship. They also share a desire to shoulder the emotional load for the person they love. We saw this in Dee when she first overheard Lee confiding his death-wish to Kara. And she plays emotional support for him very well. Part of this, Lee loves and genuinely appreciates about her, because there is noone else who is there for him like that. However, Lee actually wants to be playing the same role in a relationship with Kara--except Kara won't ever give him access to her emotions. Ironically, we've now seen that Lee doesn't give Dee access to his deepest emotions either. (e.g. In Hero we saw Dee smiling blithely at Adama's ceremony, while Lee was deeply troubled: he hadn't confided his father's admission to her.) So both have this masochistic attraction towards trying to be there for someone who ultimately won't let them in.

Both relationships work in one sense. It's peaceful to date someone who has similar emotional/intellectual make-up to you. You can predict them, you work within understood parameters, you know how to please them, and you also know how to piss them off if you want to. It's easy and so it feels good. And it IS good. I believe both Lee and Kara tried to make their relationships work.

When I first heard it, I hated Jamie's delivery of the line 'I am proud to serve with you, Lieutenant, and to call you my wife.' It sounded so overblown! But now I think it works perfectly. Lee's so insistent in his relationship, because he's got something to prove. I think he does love Dee--she's a sweet person and a good officer, she has qualities he admires. But he's got to prove that it's truer than anything else, than what could have been with Kara; he wants that to be true. He doesn't see the other ways in which he's undermining the relationship.

And Kara does love Sam. I'm sure of that. supacat and I agreed that if Lee hadn't poked and prodded at her about being 'Kara Anders' and settling down, she wouldn't have fled quite so fast into marriage, but it could have arisen organically from her relationship with Sam. It was on the cards, even if Kara wasn't quite ready to admit it.

In Unfinished Business, amusingly, Anders and Dee are shown as exaggerated forms of Kara and Lee. Anders literally drinks until he falls over (hee!), and Dee sensibly goes home to pack. The stereotypes of Kara as harddrinking-rebel and Lee as dutiful, sensible, responsible aren't completely true. Their surface public images are exaggerations: Lee's drunk and mocks Dee's sensibleness; Kara is more levelheaded and thoughtful in her conversation with him. With each other, they're free to explore aspects of themselves that aren't so visible in their relationships with people who are like them.

Kara and Lee are not alike in the relationship arena. In the workplace, in the sky, they can be the most wonderfully synchronised team, but when their attraction to each other comes into play, things go awry. Their approaches are so different, their timing's always off, they have opposite needs and desires and they completely misunderstand one another. But it's got way more spark than like dating like. They're continually drawn back to explore that because it's unfulfilled; nothing's ever sated with them, because they never click properly. Lee and Dee click. Kara and Anders click. Kara and Lee do not, but they feel like they should and they don't understand why they don't. So for all that Lee insists 'it's over, Kara', it's never over...

Opposite courtships
In Scar, Kara made the move on Lee. He totally wasn't expecting it. In Unfinished Business, Lee makes the move on Kara. She totally wasn't expecting it. In both instances they were up late, drunk together and discussing their lives. They were with each other in the first place because they were friends, and had they not moved things into the sexual arena, those conversations they were having would still have had great emotional significance for them. Because regardless of their unfulfilled sexual tension, they have been each other's confidants and their relationship is unique.

Kara's approach to Lee was based on impulse and was direct and physical. It fell apart when Lee tried to slow things down and make her think about it, because if she thought about it, it made no sense. Lee's approach to Kara is the opposite. It's slow and dialogue-based. It's an appeal to her emotions, an appeal to the big-picture. Could he get any more melodramatic than 'is this who you want to spend the rest of your life with?' ?! And Kara's terribly uncomfortable with it until he makes a move physically. It's only after the physical act is over that the gap between them becomes obvious again.

I think Lee sees the sex as Kara's ultimate acceptance of him. She'd knocked him back in Scar, and he was bitter about it--he feels as if Kara will sleep with anyone but him, and that knocks his self-esteem around. In more robust moods, he realises that Kara's self-destructive and that she tries to deny her true feelings for him. I can imagine that while at first Kara's demonstrative snogging of Anders in front of Lee stung, eventually he would have felt that there was enough of an undercurrent, a subtext, between them to act on when given his final chance.

Where I was proud of Lee for finally making a move, supacat was infuriated by the way he made it. She correctly pointed out that he approached Kara all wrong, making it about 'the rest of your life', making it a fait accompli ('we accept it'), making assumptions that her feelings are the same as his ('we accept it') and generally driving her to flee. Did Lee realise he was doing this? No. Why not? Because for him the obstacle, the one thing that hadn't happened yet, was the sex. Once that was over there was not a question in his mind that they were AS ONE. *giggle* (Oh, Leeee!!) supacat found it hard to believe that Lee wouldn't have expected her to be gone in the morning, but I explained that from his perspective, things were settled. She'd even told him she loved him! And Lee thinks the world of Kara--he wouldn't distrust her. When she drives him into bitchiness, when she shocks him, it's always because her actions have come out of leftfield. He never expects the worst from her, if that makes sense. He's not even consciously giving her the benefit of the doubt--she's just golden in his eyes, therefore she would never deliberately hurt him.

Only she does. (from Lee's perspective, after the event)

Except she doesn't. (from Kara's perspective, after the event)

supacat asked if Lee 'got it' when he heard that they she'd married Anders and when he confronted her about it. My gut reaction was no, not really even then. He certainly didn't think he'd caused her to flee. He would be far more likely to think it had been a deliberate mind-frak by Kara from the beginning. He would wonder how long she'd planned it, whether she'd even been laughing inside at him when she said 'I'm not getting married, Lee.' It would all be painted black in his memory. But he would also see it as his problem, not Kara's. He'd hate her, yes, but he'd also hate himself for risking so much and being rejected so utterly. And that would make him all the more determined to love Dee. My question re. Kara, which I actually forgot to ask, is: did she know what she was doing when she said 'yes, it was my idea'? Did she know then she was closing the door on friendship with Lee forever?

Mutual masochism
This is where I should insert a poll, if I wasn't so sleepy. Who's the more masochistic: Kara or Lee? radioreverie called Kara an abusive husband, but one who paints herself as the victim, who blames others (Lee) for her own issues. He's not the coward, she is. And in part I agree. But I don't hate Kara (how could I! I see her through Lee's eyes!). I agree that there's a masochism in Lee letting Kara taunt him, in Lee not just walking away from her. But Lee's not clear-headed where Kara is concerned, he never has been. And I think Kara is also masochistic. In hurting Lee, she's hurting herself. And she's simultaneously giving him access to put her into physical pain. It's not pretty--it's very very ugly, but Kara's out to punish herself as much as Lee.

(Speaking of masochism, I'm being hideously masochistic in using this (gorgeous!) icon by syliasyliasylia--every time I see it, my heart goes THUD and I get a lump in my throat. Because it's Kara-as-Lee-sees-her, and she's so damn beautiful and unobtainable and aaaaaaggghhhhhhhhhhh, my heart! I'm hoping the involuntary THUDding will dim if I use it myself, deliberately... perhaps?! o.O)

Reciprocity of emotion
As a Lee-perspective fan, I need constant reassurance of Kara's love for Lee. *g* Seriously. I don't ever trust it completely. For the fiftieth time, I caved on the phone with supacat and asked 'but does she really love him?' because it's never one hundred per cent obvious to me, not even when she yells it to the stars. And supacat was the first to agree that yes, in part Kara only yelled that to shut Lee up. Her take on it was that Kara didn't really think about what she was saying or how true it was until after it was out, and then the reality of having said it--IT--the thing that was true--sank in, and she has that vulnerable, terrified, but wistful expression when Lee takes her face in his hands. But supacat remains convinced that Kara loves Lee, so I guess I have to believe her. *bites nails* I hope so. I still worry though that their love is not equal. (Is anyone's, ever?) Kara stands out in Lee's emotional landscape like a bright glowing object (I looooved that we got Lee-vision of Kara in this ep! So perfect!). I'm not sure if it's the same for Kara. Or if it is, she represses the hell out of it.

More important, perhaps, is the question of what they now want from each other. In the past, Lee's wanted them to move things into the romantic arena. But does he still want to? There's still insane UST between them. There's no question there. But I don't think it's yet clear how willing either Lee or Kara will be to act on them. I think the 'I miss you's were largely about their friendship, and I am absolutely over the moon that they broke through to that, because it's their friendship more than anything that I miss. a2zmom made observed that in the boxing match both of them reached an emotional crisis – Kara acknowledging that she was wrong to run to Lee and Lee admitting that he is far from indifferent to her still. They didn't wear each other down; their anger finally gave way to their deeper feelings. In terms of speculation, I'm pretty useless--I've seen lots of interesting suggestions, but I'm also happy to sit back and wait to see what the show has in store for them. (But please, please, let Lee be happy again at some stage, just briefly!)

What IS clear is that both Kara and Lee are caught in their continued subconscious attraction to each other. Neither thinks about what they are doing in entering the boxing ring together. The rational part of Lee wants to walk away, wants it not to matter. But there's also part of him that's deeply glad she goaded him into the ring--both for the opportunity to release his anger towards her physically and for the opportunity to engage in their continued struggle with their mutual attraction. As always, Lee's slightly more conscious of the subtext between them than Kara is. And he's ready for her 'I miss you' when it comes--he rushes to reciprocate and reassure her. He may not have realised that he was waiting for it, but he was, just as she may not have realised that she needed to hear that so badly. (Oh, my girl!)

Finally, a moment I am continually replaying in my mind is when Lee falls in the ring boxing Helo and Kara mutters 'come on!' to him. He's so startled to see her but is instinctively motivated by her call, even though it's too late. I love that it just slipped out from Kara. It was rather like her unguarded smile when she enters the boxing room, which life_on_queen made a lovely observation about. Outside of the adrenelin-fuelled boxing ring, Lee would insist that motivation from Kara was the last thing he needed or wanted, and Kara would insist she didn't care... oh, denial, how beautiful you can be!

Now if you're looking for actually sane meta: apart from wisteria_'s discussion of Kara/Lee, I also really enjoyed a2zmom's observations on Lee, marenfic's observations on gender and violence and queenofthorns's on the glorious frakked-up-ness of K/L, and the boringness of happy healthy rels on TV.

And on a lighter note, there is giggly picspam!

I hope I can sleep now! *pokes tentatively around brain to see if it's calmer yet*
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Dualbunny: Lee & Kara profiles - shadowserenitydualbunny on December 6th, 2006 07:25 am (UTC)
Kara stands out in Lee's emotional landscape like a bright glowing object (I looooved that we got Lee-vision of Kara in this ep! So perfect!). I'm not sure if it's the same for Kara. Or if it is, she represses the hell out of it.

I agree completely with that take on Lee's image of Kara. I definitely don't read Kara seeing him the same way. I believe the intensity with which she reacts to him is very simliar, but that when it comes to facing just how strong his pull on her is, she's terrified. In visual metaphors I might compare it to looking at eclipse. It gives the appearance of a safe way to stare right at the sun and not get burned. Until you find out it's too late to look away.

Heh, sorry, just had to get that out there after the image struck me while I was reading this. And I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on it all. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Karabop_radar on December 6th, 2006 10:45 am (UTC)
Oh, wow! Thank you for that explanation--I love it. It makes instinctive sense to me, though I don't have access to an answer within myself.

the intensity with which she reacts to him is very simliar, but that when it comes to facing just how strong his pull on her is, she's terrified
That makes sense because it's what frustrates Lee about Kara--he's thinking 'look, you can feel it too! I can see you reacting to it!' And for him it's not frightening--at least not until it doesn't transpire how he imagines it will... Unlike Kara, Lee has no hang ups about surrender, about being eclipsed by something bigger than himself: not if it's to the right person (Kara) or cause. And it's so strong he can't understand why anyone would fight it! Not when it would bring such bliss/transcendence (at least it did/would for Lee).

You're description fits with the fact that Kara's strength lies in her tenacity to survive, whereas Lee's lies partly in his capacity for self-sacrifice. So it's instinctive for him to give in to something so powerful, and instinctive for her to resist it.

just had to get that out there after the image struck me while I was reading this
I understand! Thank you for sharing it. It helps me work through things too, and I especially appreciate it since I really need others to explain Kara to me! ;-)
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on December 6th, 2006 08:38 pm (UTC)
Quotation mark fixed! (thanks for letting me know)

I think she does but I also think she has a very strange and dark relationship to love and to the beloved - for Kara, shouting to the heavens that she loves Lee is a way to call down the vengeance of the gods on them both, that if she SAYS this, then she's doomed him, and he will die because of her and she can't bear that, even though she also is incredibly, adorably shy and giggly in that scene and she seems, for once, SO happy
Oh, I like your reading of that scene so much better! And I agree that the 'goading' reading doesn't completely hold up, because there seemed to be part of Kara that took giggly isane joy in doing something so extreme, in just shouting it out...

Also, the 'if she says this, she's doomed them' makes sense of her sad smile to him when she turns back from saying it.

I think on some level, Lee really does believe (or he does until Kara destroys him on New Caprica) that there can be a bright shiny future for them, and Kara utterly does not.
*nods* That's one of the most important things to understand about them.
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on December 6th, 2006 08:45 pm (UTC)
just how little fear affects Lee. Perhaps this is one of the attractions for Kara, who is herself consumed by her deep-seatedfears...
*nods* Perhaps! As QoT points out above, Lee does believe in a bright, shiny future for them--almost despite himself. He has the classic faith in love and the beloved as having transcendent power. It's interesting too considering that Lee's atheism--he finds it far easier to have faith in Kara (at least until New Caprica) than in Gods! *loves him*

Er... Lee is an ascetic masochist; Kara is an acting-out masochist. IMO, people who keep things in are generally more frakked up:-D
Haha! Yes. I'll totally agree with the repressers-are-more-frakked-up statement! And Lee most definitely agrees! ;-)
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K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on December 8th, 2006 04:25 am (UTC)
I would dearly love to learn more about the workings of Lee's mind separate from his interactions with his father and Kara. I like to think there is a clue there
Mmm, yes, I think so. BSG's sweeping plots do make it hard to get all the detail on individual characters--sometimes they take leaps and expect us to fill in the gaps. I know Jamie's talked in interviews about wishing they'd explore Lee's atheism more, and I agree that that would be interesting. I'm also sorry we don't get to see him interact with Roslin so much any more. While I can fanwank his estrangement from her for multiple reasons:
- his disillusionment with her over Kane's assassination
- discomfort with her religious beliefs/use of religion as power
- disapproval of her attempt to rig the election
(all of these make sense for Lee),
we haven't actually seen them articulated on the show. And I find that disappointing, because I don't think we should be expected to construct the missing links themselves. I also wonder what he thinks now of the closeness between his father and Laura.

The other thing I wonder about is how his colleagues view Lee, and whether that's changed over time.
Becky: BSG Lee/Karabeeej on December 6th, 2006 05:38 pm (UTC)
This is a fantastic look into their respective psyches. I swear, has there ever been a more complex and complicated relationship in the history of television? They're fascinating to watch. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on December 6th, 2006 08:50 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I honestly don't know if there has ever been a more complex relationship portrated... They ARE fascinating--and both enchanting yet terrifying, because they always take things right to the edge, to this precipice... In my mind, Lee and Kara will end up dying before they reach Earth, but they'll be together, struggling towards it, and he'll go first to let her have one last moment of blazing glory... They make me want to believe in an afterlife, because if ever a couple deserved it or needed it, it's these two.
brandil on December 6th, 2006 07:47 pm (UTC)
I love your meta - I really should try to engage you in conversation, but once I've read these posts (and I always do even if I don't say anything) I'm satisfied that I've thought of things I might not have, or deeper about things I did and happily go clicking away.

Here I go, clicking away *g*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on December 6th, 2006 08:52 pm (UTC)
Aww, thank you so much! Thanks for pausing long enough to let me know that. :-) It means a lot. And feel free to engage or click away, whenever! It's just nice to know you're reading. :-)
The First Evilasta77 on December 6th, 2006 11:12 pm (UTC)
Pt 1 becasue I'm terribly long winded...

So it was Lee, not Kara who had an 'agenda' that night. I still don't know how early Lee decided to act, but I do think he saw the two of them ending up alone together at the end of the night as a good sign.

I don’t think I’d us the term ‘agenda’ ;), but it was definitely Lee making the moves. I don’t think he made the decision to do anything until Kara took him to show him the site of her future home. One thing was certain; she intended to give up flying, give up being part of the fleet (and, thus, be near him) and move to the planet. The second less certain part of this, but I feel it was a reasonable assumption, was that this home would be shared with Anders. Presented with Kara leaving and starting a life with another man, Lee sees this as his last opportunity to try and begin a romantic relationship with her. As further incentive to act, she balks at the mention of marrying Anders, giving him hope, and when he kisses her, she reciprocates when she could have told him to back off. So given opportunity (alone in the woods), the situation (her beginning a new life), and not rebuffing his advances, this was Lee’s now or never shot and he took it.

Lee and Dee are also alike. They're quieter, more thoughtful, and while they also enjoy the physical, they are more interested in the emotional aspects of a relationship. They also share a desire to shoulder the emotional load for the person they love…Part of this, Lee loves and genuinely appreciates about her, because there is noone else who is there for him like that. However, Lee actually wants to be playing the same role in a relationship with Kara--except Kara won't ever give him access to her emotions…So both have this masochistic attraction towards trying to be there for someone who ultimately won't let them in.

Excellent points all around. And maybe Ron Moore’s intent in pairing Lee with Dee, beyond throwing up a road block to Lee/Kara, was that these two people are good together because they have a desire for an emotional connection and a need to be there to support their partner even if they don’t always want or need that support. We saw Lee both on screen and in deleted scenes trying to push Dee away for, I believe, two reasons. Part of him was afraid of opening up to anyone and revealing what he was keeping buried deep inside; part of him just felt he was too damaged to be loved and he didn’t want to drag Dee down with him. But Dee wouldn’t give up on him and that selfless desire of hers to want to help, to be willing to deal with bad and the good, plus Lee’s need to be loved is what eventually brought them together – I guess, we are still left with a choppy development on screen and the need to fill in a lot of blanks. However, Lee wants to be Kara’s Dee, so to speak, the person she turns to so he can help her. The problem is, unlike him, there is no desire, at this point, to let those emotional barriers down and let someone in. Though he may be trying to help her she sees it as an intrusion and an unwillingness to accept her as she is.

When I first heard it, I hated Jamie's delivery of the line 'I am proud to serve with you, Lieutenant, and to call you my wife.' It sounded so overblown! But now I think it works perfectly. Lee's so insistent in his relationship, because he's got something to prove. I think he does love Dee--she's a sweet person and a good officer, she has qualities he admires. But he's got to prove that it's truer than anything else, than what could have been with Kara; he wants that to be true. He doesn't see the other ways in which he's undermining the relationship.

ITA. And Lee has a need to do the right thing. Lee married Dee and I believe he is/was committed to making it work. Unfortunately, in focusing on doing what he believes is the right thing, he may be blind to the ways in which he is also hurting her.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 12:32 am (UTC)
So given opportunity (alone in the woods), the situation (her beginning a new life), and not rebuffing his advances, this was Lee’s now or never shot and he took it.
I agree with that, but on rewatch I think there are earlier signs that he's (subconsciously at least) looking for that opportunity. I don't think he consciously planned it out or anything, but there was a big unanswered question inside him and he was pushing for an answer with all those long stares at Kara, and courting her with ambrosia, etc. The expression when he hugs Dee when her transfer is approved is so telling--he's got such mixed feelings. And he could have gone to a warm bunk with her, but instead he stays up waiting on Kara. And yes, it becomes clearer and clearer that now's his chance once they get to the home stuff.

Dee wouldn’t give up on him and that selfless desire of hers to want to help, to be willing to deal with bad and the good, plus Lee’s need to be loved is what eventually brought them together
Yes, that's how I finally saw it--which makes a lot of sense to me. There are lots of real relationships built like that. It's easy to be judgemental oof both of them, but I don't think it's an unusualy scenario at all.

Lee wants to be Kara’s Dee, so to speak, the person she turns to so he can help her. The problem is, unlike him, there is no desire, at this point, to let those emotional barriers down and let someone in. Though he may be trying to help her she sees it as an intrusion and an unwillingness to accept her as she is.
Exactly! And I think Lee recognises himself in Dee, he recognises that here's someone who like him wants to be there for their loved one. And so he treasures that and validates that for her because he feels that that sort of love shouldn't be thrown away, it should be respected and treasured. By doing so, he's validating himself and his own emotional approach to relationships. Whereas, with Anders, Kara's validating the more light-hearted, playful, physical, non-analytical approach that is hers.

in focusing on doing what he believes is the right thing, he may be blind to the ways in which he is also hurting her.
Yes, that's exactly where I was going... Here he is, honouring her and respecting her by making his love for her formal, committed. But their marriage partly bears out Kara's fears about what a relationship with Lee would have been like (except Dee is Lee in this scenario): one person loving the image of the other and superficially playing the role of confidant, but being denied access to the whole truth, especially to the deepest, dirtiest, ugliest parts of the other person. Lee doesn't mean to do the wrong thing by Dee. I suspect he's surprised that they haven't made it work better than they have--he thinks if he tries hard enough it will work, but he's blind to the ways he sabotages it, and in denial about why he does so.
The First Evil: Apollo - Decisions - _ebasta77 on December 7th, 2006 01:47 am (UTC)
I agree with that, but on rewatch I think there are earlier signs that he's (subconsciously at least) looking for that opportunity. I don't think he consciously planned it out or anything, but there was a big unanswered question inside him and he was pushing for an answer with all those long stares at Kara, and courting her with ambrosia, etc. The expression when he hugs Dee when her transfer is approved is so telling--he's got such mixed feelings. And he could have gone to a warm bunk with her, but instead he stays up waiting on Kara. And yes, it becomes clearer and clearer that now's his chance once they get to the home stuff.

But I wonder if those earlier signs are the result of Kara's signs. She's eyeing him just as much as he's eyeing her and then she must have been the one that said, 'Hey, let me show you where I plan to live' while her boyfriend was past out on the ground. I think that's why he hung around on New Caprica instead of going back up to the ship to wait for Dee he sensed something may be up and then when he saw the opportunity he took it.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on December 7th, 2006 02:08 am (UTC)
Hee! You know I had this exact conversation with supacat, except I was arguing your point. :-) I agree that from Lee's point of view, he's picking up on Kara and he's hanging around because he senses there's something going on. And he's right. But supacat convinced me that from Kara's point of view, she's not dropping signals (ha! clueless girl!). She so IS though, even if she thinks she's just responding to Lee.

We also had an argument about who decided to take who to the place where she'll live. I say Kara. She says Lee. *stubborn face-off* The 'ta da!' motion suggested Kara to me, strongly.

So, I guess I'm happy with a more equal reading of that scene--one where both of them are dropping signals and responding and denying their personal agency in said matters. ;-)

And as far as I'm concerned, if Kara's going to go around looking like this at me, *points at icon*, that's provocation enough, dammit! ;-) *joking*
The First Evil: Lee and Kara - YCGHA - awakencordyasta77 on December 7th, 2006 02:13 am (UTC)
Oh, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was Kara who took Lee out into the woods. I mean, would he really have asked her where she planned on living *and* take her to look at the patch of dirt? It just doesn't make sense to me. And the 'ta da' motion sells it was her. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee hey!bop_radar on December 7th, 2006 02:33 am (UTC)
I know, right?!

*sigh* These Kara people and their aspersions! They are so in denial! *glares pointedly in supacat's direction*
The First Evil: The Cag - siren_iconsasta77 on December 6th, 2006 11:14 pm (UTC)
Pt 2:

</i>With each other, they're free to explore aspects of themselves that aren't so visible in their relationships with people who are like them.</i>

Also, keep in mind, that Lee and Kara have known each other much longer than they have known their respective spouses. And, in my experience, the longer you know someone, the more comfortable you feel around them, the truer you are to who you are and you no longer think about putting that best foot forward. I think now Dee and Anders are starting to see who the people they married really are, but when they were dating, they were only seeing what Lee and Kara allowed to be seen.

They're continually drawn back to explore that because it's unfulfilled; nothing's ever sated with them, because they never click properly.

See, as a non-shipper, I’ve always believed if they were truly together, as a couple, that they’d see the potential disaster of a long term relationship. You can love someone, but it doesn’t mean you’d be good together or make each other happy. Lee imagines happily ever after scenarios in his mind because he’s told himself that loving each other is enough. Kara loved Zak and it ended in disaster. But until these too decide, together, to try and make a go of it or sit down and really talk about why it wouldn’t work they are stuck in this cycle unable to move on with each other or anyone else.

I think Lee sees the sex as Kara's ultimate acceptance of him.

Yes, in Lee’s mind, if they sleep together it means she loves him. We’ve never seen him have casual sex – even with Shevon. It has to mean *something*. In ‘Scar’ he wanted it to mean more, Kara claimed it didn’t, though I think she feared it would, and they parted ways. Now, when he once again is trying to make her face the feelings she has for him, he kisses her, she welcomes it and more, and he takes this as choosing him and a relationship with him. There is no doubt in his mind immediately afterwards that they are a couple now and their future is one.

She correctly pointed out that he approached Kara all wrong, making it about 'the rest of your life', making it a fait accompli ('we accept it'), making assumptions that her feelings are the same as his ('we accept it') and generally driving her to flee.

I don’t know if he did approach her in the wrong manner. Yes, his actions did cause her to flee, but what other course could he take at this point? I think he’s made attempts before in a much more casual manner to convey how he felt and she’s chosen to ignore them. In ‘Home’ he says “I love you” and, yes, it’s not a grand romantic gesture, but look at her reaction, she knows that it could mean more and, yet, she just chooses to tease him about it. And then there is ‘Scar; where he made it clear he didn’t just want a quick frak, but, more importantly, he wanted to talk to her and find out what was going on with her and she chose to flee. So, even if he broached the subject, then backed off, I’m not sure her reaction would have been different. Maybe she wouldn’t have married Anders, but she would have still gone to him.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on December 7th, 2006 12:46 am (UTC)
I think now Dee and Anders are starting to see who the people they married really are, but when they were dating, they were only seeing what Lee and Kara allowed to be seen.
Nice call. I agree there. And it's quite fascinating to watch, because, again, it's so real and true of the way relationships unfold. Both rushed into marriage before the romantic scales fell from their eyes, and now they're in the ugly, real part of the relationship.

until these too decide, together, to try and make a go of it or sit down and really talk about why it wouldn’t work they are stuck in this cycle unable to move on with each other or anyone else
I totally agree. Since I'm Lee-sympathetic and a shipper, I understand why he indulges in his happy-ever-after dreams, and part of me gets frustrated, like him, by the fact that just loving each other is not enough. But I also recognise that they are stuck in a very unhealthy cycle. Will they ever sit down and discuss it rationally? It's hard to imagine that, though that's what they need either to move on properly or to make a go of it. I'm not sure either will happen.

what other course could he take at this point?
Oh, absolutely! I totally agree. It was wrong for Kara, but from Lee's perspective it makes perfect sense. And I agree that all that happened was that Kara married Anders a bit more quickly than she otherwise would have--she was heading that direction regardless. I don't honestly know what it would have taken to get Kara to stay by his side. (Handcuffs? *snerk*) She's too elusive. So in a way, it's better that Lee put it all on the line than risk only part of himself. Poor sweetheart!
The First Evil: Apollo - Smile - gforginaasta77 on December 6th, 2006 11:15 pm (UTC)
And Pt 3 ;-):

He certainly didn't think he'd caused her to flee. He would be far more likely to think it had been a deliberate mind-frak by Kara from the beginning. He would wonder how long she'd planned it, whether she'd even been laughing inside at him when she said 'I'm not getting married, Lee.' It would all be painted black in his memory. But he would also see it as his problem, not Kara's. He'd hate her, yes, but he'd also hate himself for risking so much and being rejected so utterly.

I both agree and disagree here. Yes, he would hate her for what she did to him and he’d also hate himself for allowing it to happen. Lee has always been very tough on himself, baring the weight of every decision, every mistake even if it’s not his burden alone to bare. He’s like his father in that respect who seems to blame himself for both the attacks on the colonies and disastrous events on New Carpica. But I don’t think he would see it as a deliberate action on Kara’s part. Her cruelty has been careless, it’s been selfish, but it’s never been intentional. Lee knows that. He knows she makes bad, foolish choices sometimes and hurts herself and others in the process. What he feels when he first learns of Kara’s marriage is pain, anger, and betrayal. He gave everything he had to her and she went back to Anders. Even so, I don’t think he thinks she had planned anything; it was only Kara being Kara. When he wishes Anders luck because he’s going to need it I think the sentiment was genuine because he believed Kara was about to cause him the same pain as he’s suffered. I do believe Kara thinks about others and their feelings, she knows she’s hurt people, but I see how her actions don’t convey that to others.

did she know what she was doing when she said 'yes, it was my idea'? Did she know then she was closing the door on friendship with Lee forever?

I don’t think she realized she was closing a door. She knew he’d be angry, give her the cold shoulder for awhile, then lash out and they’d make up as they always did. Accept this time she was staying on New Caprica and he was to remain on Pegasus and out of each other’s orbit (no pun intended). A reconciliation became impossible and the feelings of anger on Lee’s part were allowed to fester and grow.

Great Post!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 12:57 am (UTC)
Even so, I don’t think he thinks she had planned anything; it was only Kara being Kara.
The thing that made me think it was even more than that on this occasion was his deliberate question to her: 'So it was your idea?' He makes her look him in the eye and tell him that she decided to leave him. And I think in that moment at least he's wondering how long she planned it. Maybe I'm wrong... And I think Lee often goes through an initial blaze of rage at Kara where he doesn't stop to consider that there was no deliberateness in her actions. Except here he's given the chance to ask outright 'how deliberately did you choose this' and her answer is 'very deliberately'. I think when he calmed down he probably does realise that it was just, again, Kara being Kara (to the extreme!) and probably not deliberate. But right then and there he's gagging on the horror of it and I think Lee's someone who will look the darkest things in the eye--almost needs to look the worst case scenario in the eye, at least briefly, before cconsidering things more rationally. Does that make any sense?

When he wishes Anders luck because he’s going to need it I think the sentiment was genuine because he believed Kara was about to cause him the same pain as he’s suffered.
Hmm, well he was right, really! I know Kara fans hate the bitchiness of that call, but Kara did end up hurting Anders eventually.

A reconciliation became impossible and the feelings of anger on Lee’s part were allowed to fester and grow.
That's really interesting because I read it the other way--that his anger naturally dulled over time rather than grew but that he deliberately cultivated it, hung on to it, milked it, because he needed to keep a wall up between Kara and himself. And I agree that a reconciliation would have been forced earlier if they'd remained in each other's orbit. However I think Lee would have resisted just as hard, shown his hatred for her just as strongly, and needed as much provocation to get him back into the 'ring' with her.

Thank you for the long comments! I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts. :-)
The First Evilasta77 on December 7th, 2006 02:02 am (UTC)
The thing that made me think it was even more than that on this occasion was his deliberate question to her: 'So it was your idea?' He makes her look him in the eye and tell him that she decided to leave him. And I think in that moment at least he's wondering how long she planned it.

My read on that moment was that he was acknowledging to her that he knew that was a lie. I don't really think Kara had thought about marriage until Lee mentioned it and when she said she had no intention of getting married I feel he believed her. But now here she was married after *he* threw out the idea. He was angry at her for doing it, but he was also angry at himself for planting the seed in her mind. Since I don't think he could deal with his own screw up, he turned all his rage on her.

that his anger naturally dulled over time rather than grew but that he deliberately cultivated it, hung on to it, milked it, because he needed to keep a wall up between Kara and himself.

I don't think his angered dulled, the boy can hold a grudge, just look at his estrangement from his father, but I think he buried it, tried to ignore it, in order to move on with his life. But as we saw that didn't really work. He sunk into a depression and his marriage, though good, was not great and it's because there was something there that he hadn't yet dealt with.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 02:41 am (UTC)
Oh, that is interesting that we had such different takes on that scene. See I don't think Lee had got as far as realising he'd planted the seed in her mind. And while I think he believed that Kara wasn't thinking of getting married yet, I also think he thinks Kara's being naive and that it will happen anyway, or at least Anders will get to the stage of pushing the issue with her. I agree that he sees it as his failure, but I don't think he's yet analysing the ways he screwed up. I think he just feels rejected at this point in time. It's too fast, too much to take in to get far beyond that initial shock.

he was acknowledging to her that he knew that was a lie
I do like your reading though--that he's acknowledging that he knows her action's ungenuine and finds it distasteful. I kind of suspect there was an undercurrent of both readings in that question and answer: it was a very multi-layered exchange. There's also huge masochism at play on both sides.

He sunk into a depression and his marriage, though good, was not great and it's because there was something there that he hadn't yet dealt with.
Definitely! That much we agree on. :-)
sarmoti: BSG - Lee/Kara stealing glacessarmoti on December 7th, 2006 02:21 am (UTC)
I have nothing to add, but I really enjoyed reading this! I'm also more of a "Lee-perspective" person. He's my favorite character so I am constantly living inside his brain. :) I like that there are Lee people and Kara people and after an episode like this we all go slighty insane but also learn a lot from each other's insights.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee hey!bop_radar on December 7th, 2006 02:43 am (UTC)
Heee! Yes, me too. We do! I've been loving the Kara people's insights! And yay for mutual glee and insanity! *twirls you*
sarmotisarmoti on December 7th, 2006 02:51 am (UTC)
*twirls you*

Yes, but are you actually twirling ME or are you twirling Dualla and just IMAGINING that it's me??!!

:)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 02:55 am (UTC)
HEE! Well, I know who I think I'm twirling! ;-) I know who I'd like to be twirling! ;-)
sarmoti: BSG - Kara b&wsarmoti on December 7th, 2006 03:03 am (UTC)
*marries Anders*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 03:12 am (UTC)
DUDE!

*marries Dualla*
sarmoti: BSG - Lee/Kara I MISSED YOU OMGsarmoti on December 7th, 2006 04:01 am (UTC)
*quits military*
*gets captured*
*kills Leoben*
*kills Leoben*
*kills Leoben*
*kills Leoben*
*kills Leoben*
*saves fake daughter*
*angsts*
*dumps Anders*
*tries to kill Gaeta*
*has sex with Anders*
*fights you*

...... I MISSED YOU *clings*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee boxing hugbop_radar on December 7th, 2006 04:08 am (UTC)
*orbits New Caprica*
*eats noodles*
*eats noodles*
*eats noodles*
*thinks of you lots*
*eats noodles*
*makes for Earth*
*flies back, sacrifices Pegasus*
*exercises*
*yells at you*
*fights Helo*
*thinks of you lots*
*fights you*

*splurts blood* I MISSED YOU TOOOOOO *clings*
sarmoti: BSG - Lee/Kara I might vomit on yousarmoti on December 7th, 2006 04:15 am (UTC)
See, when we tell the story this way it doesn't seem nearly as complicated as the show makes it seem! :P
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee hey!bop_radar on December 7th, 2006 04:22 am (UTC)
Totally! Also, we are cute! *beams at you*
sarmoti: BSG - Lee/Kara leansarmoti on December 7th, 2006 04:24 am (UTC)
You love me! No takebacks!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on December 7th, 2006 04:44 am (UTC)
*puppy eyes* You said it too!

*serious voice* Is this the rest of your life, Kara? Is this who you want to spend it with?
indigo419: Katee brain hurts gagreel by nyusziindigo419 on December 9th, 2006 05:34 am (UTC)
OMG you guys - too funny! :0)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee hey!bop_radar on December 9th, 2006 06:17 am (UTC)
*g*
And yet still not enough to get me down off the heart-thumping, adrenelin-pumping high of Unfinished Business!

(Will I ever recover? Will I ever watch a better hour of TV? *worries*)
indigo419: KL tags Unfinished Business - wisteriaindigo419 on December 9th, 2006 06:33 am (UTC)
Will I ever recover? Will I ever watch a better hour of TV?

No, or at least not until we get torrid pilot!affair!sex! And in "real" time, not in flashbacks please! *g*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on December 9th, 2006 07:01 am (UTC)
Oh, please, please real time! *crosses fingers*
And I'm praying they don't put us through another nine-month long wait before the next development... fangirling pilots feels so masochistic sometimes, though I guess that's appropriate given that their relationship is one of continual mutual masochism!

Oh grrr. Sorry. Stream of consciousness... I'm trying to dl The Passage and it keeps failing. *frets*
dianora: bsg lee kara shippydianora2 on December 7th, 2006 05:28 am (UTC)
Hi there, had to come over here after reading your comments in wisteria's LJ...and I'm glad I did, because wow, what a post! I thought I had some things to add and then other people did it for me in comments, so that's what I get for being late to the party. ;)

Finally, a moment I am continually replaying in my mind is when Lee falls in the ring boxing Helo and Kara mutters 'come on!' to him. He's so startled to see her but is instinctively motivated by her call, even though it's too late. I love that it just slipped out from Kara.

I'm in love with that moment too. She's encouraging him; that's what she does. It's like breathing; she can only not do it if she concentrates. And even though Lee can't quite believe she said it, he responds to it anyway. Again: like breathing.

I think that's what really gets me about these two, is that innate, bone-deep connection that they can't sever, no matter how much they hurt each other. They'll always, always come back. It's so fucked up and beautiful. ;)

Anyway, thanks for a great post, and I think I'm going to go ahead and friend you, if that's okay -- I'm not active in the fandom so I like to add Lee fans when I can find them. :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on December 7th, 2006 05:38 am (UTC)
Oh, *I'M* the one who's usually late to the party, so I know how you feel! *g*

I'm in love with that moment too. She's encouraging him; that's what she does. It's like breathing; she can only not do it if she concentrates. And even though Lee can't quite believe she said it, he responds to it anyway. Again: like breathing.
Eeee!! *bounces* Yes, yes, that's it!

that innate, bone-deep connection that they can't sever, no matter how much they hurt each other. They'll always, always come back.
*nods* They will, and it's so beautiful and it breaks my heart.

Thank you for reading and friending! I'm sure I've read your posts or comments around the place this week too, and like you, I like to add Lee fans when I find them, so ... *friends back*
fruitsome: l_leepondersgrapefruitzzz on January 3rd, 2007 03:42 am (UTC)
I had to watch it with my brother, which was not very good for squeeing, omging and weeping, but I have been going mad for the meta since he left and will watch it again tomorrow after rewatching the 'Torchwood' finale (same problem, only with even more anti-sobbing. Stupid brothers). Then I can make an intelligent reply to all this creamy meta goodness instead of just "people smrt, meta yummy".

I need more powerful LEELEELEEOMG icons.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 3rd, 2007 11:16 pm (UTC)
Oh, yay!!! Another one caught up! *bounces around with you* Yeah, I went to meta hyperdrive after this ep... it was crazy! But there was so much squeeing and angsting to get out of one's system!!

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!