?

Log in

 
 
30 January 2007 @ 09:57 pm
Battlestar Galactica 3.13 Taking a break from all your worries  
I kept thinking I hated this episode, and then at the last minute it would jerk me back in and I found myself enjoying it despite myself. It was a very odd feeling. *frowns at it*

The things I absolutely did not like:
- the random creepy children
- the stupid lullaby
- gooey-beard-ness
- the painful glasses flashback (Yuh! We get it, already! Some of us can even pick up such symmetry and symbolism on our own, thank you very much!)

Along the same lines of my complaint about the glasses flashback, I was VERY ambivalent about the literalism in the exploration of Gaius's subconsciousness. It was incredibly unsubtle--and it lacked suspense because as viewers we're already privy to Gaius's internal life. *sigh* However, I can't can it completely, because it produced a few interesting points:
- I liked the idea that Roslin and Adama thought Gaius was holding back, when it fact he was telling them all exactly what he experienced, bar the ridiculous 'Chosen One' delusion
- I like that Gaius broke and said that no, he was not a Cylon--because in the pit of his soul that's what he fears
- I loved Adama saying that they'll never get an acknowledgment of guilt from Gaius because he literally does not see himself that way. (But a WHOLE EPISODE to prove that? Meh. Not sure that was completely necessary...)

Apart from that, Laura and Gaeta and their interactions with Gaius rocked, so I really can't complain that much. And I'm really fascinated by Gaeta now. Is he a Cylon?! I think he might be! I love that his motivations are a bit in shadow--in an episode where everyone else was busy being laid bare or laying themselves bare of their own free wills, it was refreshing that there is mystery surrounding someone still! And Laura is always a pleasure to watch.

Thoughts on near-death experiences
So, I couldn't help comparing Gaius's near-death experience to Lee's. And I decided I really really like the fact that Lee didn't see anything, whereas Gaius had a whole hallucination that was a direct extrapolation from his subconscious. That's so fitting, because Lee's the atheist, whereas Gaius is desperate to believe but incredibly confused about what he's searching for. Their deaths suit them.

State of the OT4
So, I really didn't expect the developments that just took place, but you know what? I think I like 'em. Though I can imagine they've pissed off a great many people. The reason I like them, I think, is because I'm a Lee fan first and foremost and this episode was largely about him--his change, his journey. And Jamie delivered a fantastic performance. It's really hard for me to hate any development on the show that respects his character as much as this episode did. Even if he's frustrating--which yes, I see that he is. But I love him, so there! :-p

Lee's bar-banter with the Chief was very revealing. Their marriages stand in stark contrast to each other. The Chief and Cally may have screaming fights, and they may need their space away from each other, but there is absolutely no doubt about their commitment to one another. Chief's straight 'no's to Lee's questions about Sharon made me laugh. No, honey, other people don't constantly wonder 'what if' in their marriages. That is not normal, sweetheart! And I also loved that the Chief was able to be flippant about marriage, but Lee couldn't do so so easily--because his marriage really is in trouble, despite the surface calm.

I liked the symmetry of having both Dee and Sam lay it on the line to Lee and Kara. Because Lee and Kara were in a stalemate, so clearly the next move was not going to be initiated by either one of them. And it was a huge relief to have them come out and address the matter head-on. It also makes emotional sense following the altercations on the Algae Planet because it's all risen to the surface. The silence around the issue must feel more absurd than ever. I loved Kara's terror when Sam asked her if she loved Lee. (Oh, Sam, I love you for asking it and being so calm about it!) And as far as I'm concerned that waiver and then 'maybe' means YES, YES, YES! *treasures*

As soon as Dee started actually saying Kara's name, I instantly liked her better. I'm so sooo glad she's moved out of frigid pissiness and into honest emotion. And I think Lee is also glad. In fact, her doing so was really significant. I've always maintained that Lee recognises himself in Dee to some extent. And earlier in the ep I'd been giggling to myself about the irony of seeing Lee staggering home drunk to find Dee sitting up working on reports and being bitchy at him--because in a Kara/Lee marriage, it would be Lee sitting at home waiting on Kara and ready with the bitchy lines for when she finally got in! But Dee hasn't allowed Lee access to her emotional side--a side that he relates to very strongly for a long long time. The silence has been very bad for their marriage. And when Lee threw out that bitchy line about Dee's insecurities, I don't think he ever expected her to respond with such honesty. And there was a lot of dignity in her response, which he would also respect. He knows exactly how hard it is to be in love with someone, to feel lucky just to be near them, and to retain your dignity in the face of rejection. So I think there was a lot of self-identification going on in this episode where Lee was concerned.

So, I (*blush*) kind of loved his apology to Dee. I love that he was desperate to win her back. This is what I always needed to see about them! I always suspected that this self-identification was at the heart of Lee's connection to her, but I feel better having had it confirmed in this episode. And I also like that he says he loved her. I believe him. Love takes different forms--and I like that he admitted he may always love Kara as well. The honesty in this episode, from both Kara and Lee, was great.

The other thing I loved about Lee's change of heart, if we can call it that, is that it was driven both by deep emotions and by chance. Because it did feel like it could have gone another way... when Kara came to him and asked if he would leave Dee, Lee was reeling. He needed longer to adjust to this sudden change of heart than she gave him. I understand that Kara needed an instant answer, but that's not Lee. And in that moment, his heart would have skipped a beat thinking 'it could really happen! we could really be together!' and I'm not at all surprised that his first reaction was to attack--because all those emotions he'd put a lid on about being rejected, about how infuriatingly unobtainable Kara has been, were coming bubbling up to the surface. And no, it was not very nice behaviour, but it was very believable. And Kara's 'think about it--that's what you do best' would have only made things worse. Rather than showing him that anything had changed, rather than reassuring him that rejection was not just around the corner again, she responded with her usual dismissiveness of him and his emotional concerns.

And it's easy to forget it in the shippiness of wanting to see Kara and Lee consummate that bubbling desire, but Kara cut Lee really deeply and he's also been through an awful lot on his own since then--which she is not interested in addressing or discussing. Dee is good for Lee. And I do not doubt for a second that he's always wanted to make good on the vow he made on his wedding day, because he thinks that Dee deserves that--his love for her is the love that's more deserving of being nurtured, given that his love for Kara has only brought him torturous pain.

And Lee lost his ring--while it was another instance of clumsy, obvious symbolism in this episode, I kind of thought it worked. And hey I have had that moment where you suddenly realise that something you've taken for granted is ruined and you clutch at it desperately, hoping against hope that you can patch it back together. (You think I'm joking, but I kept a dried bunch of roses in my bedroom for a year and a half--they were given to me by my boyfriend the day I broke up with him--until I won him back again. Yes, people, I AM Lee Adama!) Am I a Lee apologist? Prob'ly! :-)

So, there we go. Who knew I would be so happy about a Lee/Dee reconciliation? And, you know, I'd feel more sorry for Kara, but honestly I think she needs some time to sort some other stuff out--like the whole Leoben/destiny thing. And Sammy's a good shoulder drinking buddy for that stuff. Plus the evil bitchy side of Lee and I says that she was owed a rejection, dammit!

BUT. We still have the emo-couple stare-offs! Waaaaaahhhhhh!!!!! *flails* OMG, the EMO!! I love teary Lee, but oh, man, that was like getting punched in the gut all over again! Has anything changed?! At the end of the day has anything really changed? I DON'T KNOW!!!! *weeps*

Also: Where was Helo?! *frowns*
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
Current Mood: curiouscurious
 
 
 
The First Evil: The Cag - siren_iconsasta77 on January 30th, 2007 02:07 pm (UTC)
I really enjoyed reading your post. I think yours is the only positive take on the episode I've read! :) You bring up some really interesting insights, I'm not sure I completely agree with all of them, but I don't disagree with them either. I know I was able to make my peace with Lee's characterization of late because of this episode. It's not so much I see him identifying with Dee or that I believe he's in love with her, but Lee Adama kind of sucks at personal relationships and there is something broken in him that makes him selfish when it comes to love so nothing here screamed OOC for me. OK, maybe Lee getting sloppy drunk. I don't see that in keeping with him being the CAG, not to mention, as much as I adore Jamie the boy plays a lousy drunk. ;)

- I loved Adama saying that they'll never get an acknowledgment of guilt from Gaius because he literally does not see himself that way. (But a WHOLE EPISODE to prove that? Meh. Not sure that was completely necessary...)

It dawned on me the morning after seeing this episode that it really didn't do anything to advance the characters or plot. Baltar could have and would have gotten a trial wihtout the torture. Gaius had no great epiphany or revealed anything about him *we* already didn't know. And the looks exchanged by Lee and Kara at the end told me that no matter who they are sitting with or what they are saying to their spouses, it ain't over yet...damn it!

He knows exactly how hard it is to be in love with someone, to feel lucky just to be near them, and to retain your dignity in the face of rejection. So I think there was a lot of self-identification going on in this episode where Lee was concerned.

This I had not thought of and it's an excellent point. He seemed rather stunned when she said that the marriage was over and she walked out of the room (this could have worked as the point that made him realize he didn't want to lose her rather than the embarrassing and badly acted drunken ring search). And I think the reason he was so stunned is that he's never been able to just walk away from Kara. Yes, I thought he showed a remarkable amount of dignity and reserve when he found out about her marriage to Sam, but what we saw was a year and a half later he was still holding onto a lot of feelings and bitterness in regards to her. He wasn't able to just say 'It's over' and Dee apparently could. It's that strength that he was drawn to before and I think he some ways he wants to be more like Dee and realizes that Kara does often bring out the worst in him.

He needed longer to adjust to this sudden change of heart than she gave him. I understand that Kara needed an instant answer, but that's not Lee.

That scene when he questions if she's going to do another 180 on him was Lee's best moment and Kara's worst. Given how many times he has come close to having her only to have her change her mind, walk away, or rip out his heart he has every right to question if this is going to be another instance of her having a whim, but then going back to Sam.

And it's not just their lives they are fraking around with, two other people will suffer as well. It really pissed me off when she said to him, "Think about it, Lee. It's what you're best at." Yes, he does think, perhaps too much sometimes, but they both should be thinking here. Kara's impulsiveness may be great in a cockpit or in a fire fight, but when it comes to relationships you can't rush into anything and you can't give the other person about five seconds to decide if they want to give you another chance and throw away the life they have now.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:02 pm (UTC)
part I
Lee Adama kind of sucks at personal relationships and there is something broken in him that makes him selfish when it comes to love so nothing here screamed OOC for me
*nods* As far as Lee being in love with Dee--no, I don't think he is--not that sweeping romance or exciting thrill or soulmate-attraction. But I do think he loves her--he respects her as a person and he is very fond of her.

OK, maybe Lee getting sloppy drunk. I don't see that in keeping with him being the CAG, not to mention, as much as I adore Jamie the boy plays a lousy drunk. ;)
Yeah, I had the same conflicted emotions! It was really confronting to watch, but on the other hand, it was so fun to see that performance from Jamie! On balanced reflection I do think it was overplayed--if the breakdown had been more private I would have preferred it. But in public, I think he'd be sure to be more 'together' as the CAG. And he must have drunk a LOT because he's a pretty big drinker anyway. The ring search was just painful... and I don't like this new trend towards COMPLETE LACK OF SUBTELTY.

It dawned on me the morning after seeing this episode that it really didn't do anything to advance the characters or plot
Yup. That was my biggest issue with it too. *stabs* Though I honestly honestly can say that I still liked parts of it--I needed that Lee/Dee stuff fleshed out. It filled a void for me emotionally. But it was a waste of an ep apart from that, and frankly that stuff could have been integrated into the story a long long time before now. So I'm not a total fan of this ep either. But I do love Lee, and I'm buzzing with thoughts on him following this ep. I have BSG-insomnia again! Only last night when I got up to come downstairs and write my way out of it, the net was down. :-( WOE!

I think the reason he was so stunned is that he's never been able to just walk away from Kara
Oh, yes, I like that! I hadn't quite drilled down into that stunned moment of his. That's one place where he and Dee differ, and I think it challenges him to confront the issue. I was thinking overnight about the way in which both Dee and Lee 'own' their actions in this episode. Dee comes out and admits to always knowing she was at the mercy of both Lee and Kara, accepting leftover crumbs, but feeling 'lucky' regardless because she was in love. And as a response Lee decides to 'own' his decision to marry her. Rather than just telling her that he's honourable, he shows her. (Which is another challenge that Dee threw down--'honour' being a pretty empty word when your husband spends NO meaningful time with you at all.)

I think he some ways he wants to be more like Dee and realizes that Kara does often bring out the worst in him.
I like that you have a slightly different take on his attraction to Dee, and I sort of agree... although I struggle with seeing Dee as 'strong'. For me, she was definitely at her strongest in this episode so I had no problem buying Lee's attraction to her right now. And in the dynamic set up within this episode, Lee essentially had a choice between confirming himself as a total asshole husband and leaving Dee to be with Kara (making their entire marriage pointless), or stepping up to the plate and admitting his mistakes, his weaknesses and his vulnerability and trying to match her strength.

That scene when he questions if she's going to do another 180 on him was Lee's best moment and Kara's worst.
Ha! And it was both of them at their most 'them'. Kara at her most Kara: no grand proclamations, no emotion, just a matter of fact 'so are we on?' That was never going to work for Lee.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:03 pm (UTC)

Yes, he does think, perhaps too much sometimes, but they both should be thinking here. Kara's impulsiveness may be great in a cockpit or in a fire fight, but when it comes to relationships you can't rush into anything and you can't give the other person about five seconds to decide if they want to give you another chance and throw away the life they have now.
Heee! *giggling* Yeah, I totally agree, man! You can tell we're both Lee fans. I could have punched her in that scene. Yeah, throw thoughtfulness at someone as an insult! That's real mature! Hang on, throw thoughtfulness as an insult at your husband-to-be! It's not promising! And yes, I do think Lee overthinks sometimes. But if ever there was a time for thinking, it's now. And she needed to at least show a little more tolerance for Lee's need to think it through properly--and for Lee's need for reassurance as well as her own. Wah, they are both so damaged!
carpenyx: BSG - Sharon/Helocarpenyx on January 30th, 2007 02:08 pm (UTC)
I really like your persceptive on the episode. I took a more negative approach to this episode.

I think I was just hoping so much for some sort of resoluation with the 4 and at the end of the day I didn't see one, except that they sorta ended up back where they started. As much as I'm a K/L 'shipper at this point, I just really wanted some sort of decision to be made either way.

I had a hard time with the Gaius plotline. I think partly because I was too focused on the pilots and getting frustrated. I do think that James Callis did a wonderful job with the acting and he's brillant.

Had you seen the missing scene? (Roslin and Caprica Six?) If you haven't, nebakanezer posted it on her LJ & it's brillant! I really wished they had kept it in as I think it would've added t othe Gaius plotline.

I missed Helo too!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Helobop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:06 pm (UTC)
Thank you for your comment! I gather most people disliked this episode intensely and I'm certainly not going to argue that it was a success. But there was a lot I could take out of it from a Lee perspective.

The lack of resolution was the one HUGE problem with this episode. Like you, I want some sort of decision one way or another. (And hey, they can always time-jump forward a year and pull a 180 on us later--whatever!) And when I thought I was getting one, those across-the-barroom stares just went on waaaay too long.

You mention having a hard time with the Gaius plot--I agree--and I don't think the two plots meshed well together at all. Emotionally it was a strange tug of war and it didn't come off.

I haven't seen the missing scene! I will have to check it out. *g*

I want my Helo back!! Why couldn't Lee have been drinking with him?!
daybreak777: Kara prayingdaybreak777 on January 30th, 2007 06:35 pm (UTC)
I love people who can explain Lee to me. I was so baffled by him. In my shippy point of view, finally Kara came to give him what he said he wanted and Lee just froze. For Kara, that was a big step. You mention the waver and even when she’s offering to leave Sam, there’s a flicker in her eyes when Lee doesn’t jump at it. It hurts and it hurts her to remember how she hurt him.

I’ve said this before but these two truly don’t know each other. Not really. Lee trying to push her to divorce didn’t work. Her offering Lee the world and then expecting him to decide in an instant didn’t work. I thought back in Eye of Jupiter there was a chance for some mutual understanding. When Lee says, “It is a big deal, it is” about three times and Kara didn’t run away. There was a moment when she realized, this is Lee and unlike Sam, cheating is a big deal for him. So she seemed to try to begin to accept who Lee really is. But now I see that they’re both still too wrapped up in their own stuff to see the other’s needs which is probably why they shouldn’t be together right now. I can’t remember when Lee and Kara had an honest conversation together about what they've been through. There was honesty in this ep from both of them but not with each other.

Along the cheating line. I hate to say it because I like Kara so much but it bothered me that she could sleep with Sam so soon after almost being with Lee. What exactly was she offering? Does she realize that kind of open relationship (which is so cool of Sam in a way) could never work with Lee? As a shipper, even if I got what I wanted and Lee had left Dee, I don’t think it would have worked until the two people in question actually get to know each other. Lee still knows nothing about Caprica, New Caprica, Kacey or Kara’s possible destiny. Kara still doesn’t know why Lee tried to commit suicide. That’s so huge.

I guess I get your point about Lee seeing himself in Dee. I guess that’s why he loves her. He can understand her. But is that the love you build a marriage on? Where’s his passion for her? I’m not so into Cally and Chief’s relationship cause how it began but when she was kidnapped, Chief was freaking out. I don’t see Lee freaking out over Dee. He fears losing her but is that really about losing her? Or is it about fear, guilt, and the loss of stability? You mentioned chance. If Kara had given Lee ten more minutes, just stayed in that space with him a little longer, would he still have chosen Dee? I just keep remembering that Lee married Dee in reaction to Kara’s marriage to Sam. His love for Dee is kind of lukewarm at best to me. Safe and understandable but is that really love, Bop? Dee really loves him, I believe that but I don’t know if she’s good for him. I think she’ll keep him where he is. Safe, comfortable, nurtured. Maybe he needs that right now.

But later, who’s going to push him? Yeah, it’s painful but if he and Kara ever climb across the chasm of misunderstanding and self-interest to actually see the other person’s point of view, it would be such huge growth for both of them. It may have to happen while they’re apart but I don’t think either of their current partners can inspire the leap of faith that loving some beyond all reason and just because you can’t stop, can inspire. *Reins myself in from extreme shipoholism*

Nothing wrong with being an apologist! Someone has to explain Lee. There are so many different points of view on this ep that it adds layers I’m not sure even the writers intended. I just keep rewatching and rewatching.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:29 pm (UTC)
I’ve said this before but these two truly don’t know each other. Not really
I totally agree. Their approaches to each other are always tragically inappropriate for the other person. I definitely agree with you that that moment in Eye of Jupiter was a real chance--the first sign I'd seen of change. Kara not running away was a HUGE deal. But that moment was so fleeting and, as you say, we saw them both back wrapped up in themselves in this episode again.

There was honesty in this ep from both of them but not with each other.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly! I had the same thought last night (I have BSG!insomnia again!). I was thinking about the ways in which both Lee and Dee 'own' their actions and emotions in this episode with each other--but Lee doesn't do that with Kara, doesn't even see the way in which he could do that with Kara. And I imagine it's the same for Kara. She was remarkably honest with her 'maybe' to Sam, if not exactly verbose about it. But she's not honest with Lee--she doesn't tell him anything about the reasons for approaching him again. Though in fact Sam's words have obviously struck a deep chord with her. But how was Lee to know that without her telling him?

it bothered me that she could sleep with Sam so soon after almost being with Lee. What exactly was she offering? Does she realize that kind of open relationship (which is so cool of Sam in a way) could never work with Lee?
That didn't bother me, actually. I think I was ok with it because she asked Sam why he was being so accommodating--so I saw it as her testing him out, seeing what was going on and how much she could get away with. It may also have been the first tentative step to reconnect with him given that Lee had shut the door. And yeah, Sam's incredibly cool about the open relationship thing. But no, it could never work with Lee. Never. And I'm not sure Kara does know that.

As a shipper, even if I got what I wanted and Lee had left Dee, I don’t think it would have worked until the two people in question actually get to know each other. Lee still knows nothing about Caprica, New Caprica, Kacey or Kara’s possible destiny. Kara still doesn’t know why Lee tried to commit suicide. That’s so huge.
*nods vehemently* I completely agree. It's incredible really--they adore one another, they need each other like they need air--but they know so little about what matters to each other at a fundamental level. Or even how they each function emotionally--they're constantly at odds, confused by the other's behaviour because it doesn't fit their own emotional needs. And while I will still always ship them because of the insane chemistry and tragic love, I do recognise that there's a gulf between them. (The gulf makes it kind of hotter, imo, though also torturous and angsty!)

Before this comment gets too long to post, I'll just quickly say that I don't like Chief and Cally's relationship either. But I get that the writers want us to 'buy' them as a more committed couple now. And I'll answer your Lee/Dee questions in a sec!
daybreak777: Kara prayingdaybreak777 on January 31st, 2007 08:55 am (UTC)
Are you kidding me? I LOVE reading your ideas about these two! I don't think it can be too long. It’s all so much fun and I (well, hopefully, we) get so much more out of the show by analyzing it. And my comments aren’t exactly, ahem, short. :)

It’s also interesting that although we have different points of view on some things, we are in agreement on main issues. It may not seem like it but I liked the episode. I feel we got to see inside the characters heads for the first time in a while. It didn’t advance the plot, but I was riveted by all the good acting. That cast is an embarrassment of riches. A pot of gold they have there, I tell you.

I think I was ok with it because she asked Sam why he was being so accommodating--so I saw it as her testing him out . . .

Oh, it didn’t bother me that Kara slept with Sam because of Sam. He seems like he can handle it. It bothered me because of Lee. I remember his face when Sam said Lee wasn’t the first. I’m a little protective of Lee (of them all really). He just couldn’t handle that.

I guess my main thought is that though these two bring out the worst in each other sometimes, they can also bring out the best. Sam can be a healing place for Kara now, but him being so accommodating isn’t going to make her grow. Heal perhaps, but not grow beyond that. If she was with Lee, she’d have to be faithful. She’d have to truly practice her faith, make vows mean what they say. Being with Lee would push her to be better.

And Lee, I remember when he was deciding to do about the Galactica and New Caprica. Dee was supportive, but she didn’t push him to do anything more. I hated her in that scene, frankly. I kept thinking, no, no, no, this is not Lee. Lee does not just give up. Don’t make it okay for him to leave. Kara would have never left the old man behind or those people on New Caprica. She couldn’t leave people behind on Old Caprica. In a way, I’m glad that Lee came to it himself. I love when he does something daring. It’s kind of spectacular. He has his own standards for himself. But with Dee he’s almost too comfortable. Dee reminds me of Adama. Keep the fleet and family together. Lee is something new. He can be about new rules and new ways of forging family. He has such potential. Maybe it will mean more if he comes to it on his own without Kara. It probably will.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on February 1st, 2007 10:41 am (UTC)
I (well, hopefully, we) get so much more out of the show by analyzing it.
Definitely 'we'! ;-)

That cast is an embarrassment of riches. A pot of gold they have there
So true! We almost take it for granted by now, I think. But I remember when I first started watching having that shock realisation of just how many kickass actors they'd lined up. So it's nice to be reminded of that and I agree that even when the show is (possibly) drifting a little in overall plot, individual performances still make it incredibly compelling.

It bothered me because of Lee. I remember his face when Sam said Lee wasn’t the first. I’m a little protective of Lee (of them all really). He just couldn’t handle that.
Ohhhh! Got it, now! That's so cute of you!! Well, yes. If Lee knew about that it would send daggers through his heart, again. You know, that's a good reminder that that comment of Sam's must still be echoing in Lee's head--another reason why his 'how do I know you're not going to do a 180 on me again?' question to Kara made sense emotionally. Part of him must have thought 'I am not going to be fooled into being just one more notch on Kara's bedpost, if that's all this is'.

She’d have to truly practice her faith, make vows mean what they say. Being with Lee would push her to be better.
True! I would love to see that. She'd be the best Kara she could be.

I hated her in that scene, frankly.
Same! And that scene showed she knew F-ALL about Lee in that regard.

n a way, I’m glad that Lee came to it himself. I love when he does something daring. It’s kind of spectacular. He has his own standards for himself.
Yes, oh yes, for sure! I found his sacrifice of Pegasus was quite understated but it was incredibly profound and he made that decision entirely on his own. He's a lonely figure in many ways, but you're right--Dee would have just lulled him into false security and 'comfortableness'. When you're fighting a war, comfortableness can be deceptive and unhelpful. False security and all that!

I like your point about Dee and Adama both being the more conservative figures--family, security, unity, stability, status quo. Lee is an innovator, you are right. I think that's why he connected with Laura in those early days too. And if it does follow this path and Lee does come to it (whatever 'it' is) on his own, I know he's going to turn to Kara to forge that path with him, not Dee, because Kara's the maverick with the genius flare and audacity to pull it off. Lee will be the one making sure that all the bases are covered and it actually works. :-p
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:53 pm (UTC)
I don’t see Lee freaking out over Dee. He fears losing her but is that really about losing her? Or is it about fear, guilt, and the loss of stability?
I don't know... I'm not sure it's fair to compare him with the Chief in this instance. Lee doesn't freak out that way about anything--he's always got a cooler head in emergencies--he's the CAG for a reason. Yes, in the past we saw him lose it over Kara being missing, but we also saw that he's come a long way from then. Eye of Jupiter showed that he'd advanced emotionally. And while freaking out and pulling out all stops to get someone back does demonstrate heighened emotion for them, it's not always the best approach either--you can be irrational and dangerous. Lee got them through a tough situation by keeping a level head. And to actually get back to Dee... while there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 80-90 per cent of Lee was thinking about Kara in the reunion-hug scene, when he saw Dee, I honestly did see genuine love and relief flood into him. I know she didn't buy it, but I think Lee knows what he put her through and he feels a rush of emotion for her being still alive. The same rush of emotion as he feels for Kara? No. Never will be. But strong nonetheless. Yes, I think fear and guilt are wrapped up in his emotions for Dee, and I think he's selfish in that relationship, but I also think he's genuine--he does care for her.

I guess that’s why he loves her. He can understand her. But is that the love you build a marriage on? Where’s his passion for her?
asta77 suggested above that Lee is attracted to Dee's strength and wishes he could be more like her, so I think it's not just that he understands her. In terms of passion, well... I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I'm one of those people that doesn't feel that passion is necessarily an essential for marriage--or rather that it doesn't have to predominate or come first. I think you can build a marriage on mutual respect, honesty and understanding and have the love deepen over time. I'm guessing that's what Lee's always wanted from his marriage with Dee and I understand that.

Kara is terrifying to Lee. She's this all-consuming incomprehensible whirlwind that's capable of hurting him more than anything in the universe. Jumping into bed or marriage with Kara is like jumping into an abyss. There might be bliss in there, in the surrender, but it takes a hell of a lot of courage to jump. And he did it--once--and got burned. Does that sound like something to build a marriage on? terror? (Kind of rhetorical questions because I think we've both agreed they're not in the right place right now to make it work.)

So I understand the part of Lee that thinks that the better option might be security and safety and nurture for now. But I think the other key thing about that decision is not just what he'll get from Dee but what he's able to give Dee. If he left her to be with Kara who would he be? An asshole to Dee (and Sam), and (Kara just indicated) an impatiently tolerated lover who overthinks and is overemotional to Kara. (I know that's not really all that Kara thinks of him, but that's what she's shown to Lee.) On the other hand, if he stays with Dee, he has the chance to be an honourable husband and to take responsibilty for marrying her. He hurts Kara, but I don't think he realises how much it hurts her because she never shows him the depth of her emotion--in his mind, the main person hurting is himself, and he's always had a powerful capacity for self-sacrifice, which is where that teary staring across the room at Kara came from--Lee driving a knife through his own heart to be a 'better man'.

I totally understand why people view his love for Dee as 'lukewarm'. I don't think it's been well developed on the show. But in this episode I felt I really understood his attraction to her. In contrast to Kara, she's willing to admit her vulnerability. And she does so with strength. That's very appealing to Lee who needs to both admire his partner and feel that he could offer them something emotionally.
daybreak777daybreak777 on January 31st, 2007 09:01 am (UTC)
I do recognise that there's a gulf between them. (The gulf makes it kind of hotter, imo, though also torturous and angsty!)

Ah, the gulf between who they are and who they are on the verge of becoming. This show. It’s so easy to get seduced by the sheer potential of this show in both plot and with the characters. That’s why I love it. I guess my worry is if Kara and Lee grow to their potential apart, they’ll almost be too mature to try to be together again and that would break my shipper heart. I want to see them grow up, but part of their potential is how good they can be together too. I can accept best friends and co-workers, kind of. Okay, not really, but I like seeing how good they are together so much that I’ll accept whatever their relationship is if that can happen.

Dee, Dee is like home. And you always love home and want to come back to it. The thought of losing it is dizzying and scary. You could see Lee spinning when Dee left the room. But they’ve lost home, it’s all gone, they and have to find a new one somehow. It is absolutely terrifying. The Kara abyss is kind of scary to think of building a marriage on. For now. For now. But she’s working on it. Baby steps. I think she’ll get there sooner or later. I’m worried about Lee. asta77 said he’s broken in some way. That sounds true. I hadn’t realized. Dee’s strong, but she’s too in love with him to help him pick up his pieces.

I think like saving the Galactica, he’ll have to save himself. If being a better husband to Dee is his way of drawing his line in the sand and living up to his own standards, then I hope he can do it and keep that Kara-love under the surface (letting it peek out now and then when the audience can see it, of course. Cause it is hot.). Dee has given him her heart and she deserves as much of him as he can give.

Gosh, darn it, now I’m worried for all of them. Lee, Dee, Kara and Sam. I rewatched the Sam/Kara scene and when Kara says, “Maybe” Sam makes this little gasp, cause he hears, the yes, yes, yes. Poor Sam. For the first time, I really felt for him. But he lets her go anyway.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on February 1st, 2007 10:49 am (UTC)
Yes, I know, it's not easy being a shipper! I want 'em to be together, of course I do. And I want it because Lee wants it, because that's where his bliss is. But I love all levels of their relationship and will accept whatever pans out--though I'll still be shipping them in my mind!

Yes, I think Lee is broken. I was speculating about that in the comments to asta77's Lee epiphany post--I really do wonder about Lee's early family life. He reads as someone that doesn't have a model of a healthy relationship as a basis to build on, and he doesn't have faith or trust in being able to acquire one--that all reads as 'broken family syndrome' to me. Lee's sensitive, I can see him as the one who carried the family's emotional issues on his own shoulders, and it's cost him. But who knows? For whatever reason, the writers have written him as damaged. With Kara, we know a little of why she is the way she is. It's perhaps a little more foggy with Lee--but I suspect the causes are less explicit as well. Physical abuse is an easy concept for people to grasp. Lee reads more as someone who suffered subtle emotional abuse, possibly subconsciously and unintentionally, but it's all the more invasive and damaging because it's hidden.

when Kara says, “Maybe” Sam makes this little gasp, cause he hears, the yes, yes, yes. Poor Sam. For the first time, I really felt for him. But he lets her go anyway.
Oh, yes, poor sweet Sam! Because he must have been hoping she'd say, 'no, no, we went through all that so that WE could be together forever'. It was an incredible speech from him really. He's a gorgeous guy and I like that Lee recognised some of Sam's 'goodness' in Rapture. I do feel for all of them, even though they all frustrate me at times too. That's good TV!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC)
Wah! You probably didn't want a three-part essay! Sorry!

But later, who’s going to push him?
That is a good question. I think I'm reconciled to them both, right now, needing a bit of support and nurture and success in their relationships. But I don't want them to stay that way forever. I'm a shipper too, for sure, and I know that they do still love each other beyond all reason, and those looks at the end of this episode proved that. Somewhere down the track, I fully imagine that they'll be drawn back to provoke and stimulate and inspire each other again. Hopefully professionally and as friends as well as lovers. I have no idea where that leaves Dee and Sam. It sure is a frustrating tangle!

If Kara had given Lee ten more minutes, just stayed in that space with him a little longer, would he still have chosen Dee?
Maybe not! That's why I think chance really is so so important in this episode. I like that, because it's something they've shown with them from the beginning--their tragic mistiming and crossed cues. If Kara had stayed, as she did in Eye of Jupiter and shown that she knew it was a really big deal to Lee but she was willing to wait through his emo-ing around, then I think it would have been very different. But Lee had just realised, for the first time properly, that he really could lose Dee and that that mattered to him, and he needed to see something very solid and secure and hopeful to take that plunge and risk that despite it. He didn't see that in Kara right then. But with just the smallest change it could have been different. If Dee hadn't actually come out and said she was leaving him, I think it definitely would have been different--so it's not all on Kara.

OK, officially rambling now! More coffee required! I love, love, love you questioning me like this. It's so great we can trade perspectives! *hugs*
daybreak777: Kara prayingdaybreak777 on January 31st, 2007 09:03 am (UTC)
And yes, I did want a three-parter! I enjoy this, ramble away. Thanks for answering my questions as I have so many. Again, this is so much fun!

*hugs and coffee and more rewatching to you, my dear*

Now, I’m off to my journal to respond to your comments about characters other than Lee and Kara in this episode. If we can tear our minds away from them!
Dualbunny: Lee & Kara profiles - shadowserenitydualbunny on January 30th, 2007 07:11 pm (UTC)
It makes me so happy that I have Kara-readers and Lee-readers on my f-list. Really enjoyed reading this. :D
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:12 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I love having Kara-readers on my f'list too! I don't know what I would do without them as she does not come instinctively to me, love her though I do. *g*
CapnZebbie: stalkerkittycapnzebbie on January 30th, 2007 10:30 pm (UTC)
I enjoyed the episode, although it did seem kind of circular, or spiraled--just turned in on itself so that at the end, everything seemed the same as it was at the beginning.

And really, trying to torture Gaius by making him think he's crazy and hallucinating--how redundant is that?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Gaius dancebop_radar on January 30th, 2007 10:55 pm (UTC)
Heh--yeah, redundant! And circular. It was a puzzle.
blowjobs for jesus: bsg Apollokristiinthedark on January 30th, 2007 11:06 pm (UTC)
Gooey-beardness. Hee.

There were many enjoyable moments in this episode, and you highlighted all of them. Chief's "no" to Lee's question about whether or not he thinks about "what if" made me go "awww" and grin at the same time. Lee was just so sure that the way he feels is normal. *pets him* And I liked the Lee/Dee stuff (omg, I'm having good feelings towards her two weeks in a row!), because, I don't know, her emotions laid wide open like that really spoke to me. When people get all honest and tell me what's truly going on inside of them, I respond to that, no matter what they're actually telling me. But, also, I could get where she was coming from. I've been in that kind of relationship- well, I was 18 and it was my first, but still- so it was cool to see her say, 'okay, enough. I'm better than this.' Go, Dee!

I would have been thrilled with Gaius's journey if anything would have actually happened. That was the main problem with the entire episode to me. At the end of the hour, we're right back where we started from. Blah. I've never felt that way about a BSG ep before! But I love to watch the characters and feel what they feel and see what they see, so even if it was not the best, I still liked it a lot. *is easy*

(I love that you kept those roses! That is so ridiculously romantic and very LEE. *hearts you*)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 30th, 2007 11:52 pm (UTC)
Lee was just so sure that the way he feels is normal. *pets him*
Ha! Yes, he was so funny trying to convince himself that all he had were 'normal' marital woes. HUAHAHAHAHAHAA no.

When people get all honest and tell me what's truly going on inside of them, I respond to that, no matter what they're actually telling me. But, also, I could get where she was coming from. I've been in that kind of relationship- well, I was 18 and it was my first, but still- so it was cool to see her say, 'okay, enough. I'm better than this.' Go, Dee!
I'm the same! Bear your soul to me and I will love you. *g* Even if your soul ain't too pretty. And yes, I think many people can relate to the emotions that Dee described--and they're in character--she is very young. I certainly have been in that position. It doesn't usually lead to a healthy relationship, so I find the fact that it's got so frakked up believable.

I love that you kept those roses! That is so ridiculously romantic and very LEE.
Yeah, I know, right? *headdesk* Looking back on it, I have to laugh. He sent them to work the day that I had resolved to break up with him. I had spontaneous sobbing in the foyer--it was very embarrassing. And of course it had taken me weeks to pluck up the courage to dump him, and I was sure I was doing the 'right' thing, and I did so anyway and all... but I hung on to those roses too. And oh, lord, they meant SO MUCH to me later that year when I started getting the Regrets. *g* Lee on bended knee begging Dee to take him back? Pretty much exactly me.
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leokristiinthedark on January 31st, 2007 12:41 am (UTC)
I'm the same! Bear your soul to me and I will love you. *g* Even if your soul ain't too pretty.

Yes! I have to be very careful about this, and I imagine you do, too.

And of course it had taken me weeks to pluck up the courage to dump him

I'm thinking it took a lot of courage for you to realize your mistake and go back after him. *hugs*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on January 31st, 2007 12:49 am (UTC)
Yup, I must be careful! *links arms with you*

Aww, you are so sweet! Yes, it did take courage, I think. I still get these sickening moments where the pit of my stomach falls away when I remember what I put him through. I usually respond by apologising AGAIN for breaking up with him. He just laughs at me. But oh, it is so frightening what I nearly threw away!

Hey, you musta been happy about Sam mentioning Leoben! And for a minute there it sounded like he was asking Kara if she loved Leoben! Hee! I'm looking forward to getting resolution or at least some progress on that plot in the latter half of this season (I assume).
blowjobs for jesus: bsg kara leo otpkristiinthedark on January 31st, 2007 01:07 am (UTC)
I was THRILLED when Sam mentioned Leoben! Any time ANYONE mentions Leoben, I grin like mad and flail about. And even though I don't really know if there's going to be a big Leoben/Kara show coming up, I just KNOW there will be. You know? ;p
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara glowybop_radar on January 31st, 2007 01:17 am (UTC)
I know. *g*
sarmoti: BSG - Lee/Kara stealing glancessarmoti on January 31st, 2007 12:22 am (UTC)
Hmm, you've made me more thinky about Lee/Dee now. How DARE you! :) While Lee and Lee/Dee are frustrating I was really glad that they dealt with them in this episode. And really, for me, this is all about Lee. I don't really care what Dee gets out of this whole thing; instead I'm more interested in what Lee's relationship with Dee says about him, how it affects his storylines and actions. While it was upsetting that Lee begged Dee to take him back (and that she DID!) it wasn't surprising, and if anything, I'm just really curious as to what happens with them (and with Kara/Sam and Kara/Lee) now.

I'm hoping that Lee/Kara will finally step back enough from their whirlwind of passion to truly rebuild their friendship and their partnership as officers. From UB to EoJ they went from avoiding each other to fondling each other in, like, two seconds. They didn't really deal with the hurt and mistrust that was still lingering between them - they just bulldozed right through it, and they can't build a future on that. Eventually they will again want to be with each other for realz, but before then I want to see their relationship truly mended, which will only happens once they're both honest and open with each other and, more importantly, with themselves. Until then...VIVA LA EYEFRAKKING!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee is emo!bop_radar on January 31st, 2007 12:32 am (UTC)
Hmm, you've made me more thinky about Lee/Dee now. How DARE you!
Heeee. I am EVOL like that! ;-)

was really glad that they dealt with them in this episode. And really, for me, this is all about Lee.
Same, and same. And this was all in character to me, although it was painful to watch. I think the drunkenness was overplayed (particularly the ring search) but the basic emotional arc with Dee made sense to me for Lee. And yes, I am very curious to see where to from here.

From UB to EoJ they went from avoiding each other to fondling each other in, like, two seconds. They didn't really deal with the hurt and mistrust that was still lingering between them - they just bulldozed right through it, and they can't build a future on that.
Definitely! And again it's understandable (all that insane pent up attraction and chemistry bubbling over, with fear keeping them from tackling emotions instead) but it's also not going to work long term. And I really really want to see them regain a friendship and a good working relationship (I love them when their powers combine!) before we get into all that. So it worked for me if this is meant to be the 'taking a step back'.

It's official for me now. Kara/Lee eyefrak better than my other OTP Clark/Lex in Smallville. And that is REALLY SAYING A LOOOOT. Oh, man, that image of Lee's last woobie eyefrak of Kara is still etched on my brain. :-(
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on February 1st, 2007 06:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Helobop_radar on February 1st, 2007 09:57 am (UTC)
An entirely appropriate response! *hugs* Let us hope for better this week!
Diana: Reporter -- Lois Lanebutterfly on February 1st, 2007 05:58 pm (UTC)
It's so nice to have someone else happy about the Lee/Dee connection at the end. I was feeling a bit alone, reading everyone else's reviews!

Lee is my favorite (human) character on the show, so I really felt for him, too, in this episode. And I think it's because I'm such a fan of Lee that I don't want him with Kara -- she's torn up his heart too many times.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on February 1st, 2007 09:47 pm (UTC)
You're not alone! Although I know what you mean this week... *clings* I was pondering writing another post in defence of Lee (and Dee)--it's been getting to me a bit. I'm so glad someone else felt for him! I know he was shown to be a bastard in this ep, but it's not as if Kara's exactly a saint! And I found Lee's actions just profoundly sad--he's so so vulnerable, and yes, right now, I would be terrified of him going to Kara because I think inevitably she would cheat (sorry, Kara fans, but I think she would) and he would break his heart. That's not what I want to see. Right now, I am far, far happier to see him solidify something with Dee. For me, some balance has been regained in relation to Kara too--she's rejected him enough times. I'm glad he wasn't a pushover here.
Diana: Reporter -- Lois Lanebutterfly on February 2nd, 2007 06:17 pm (UTC)
Ooo -- if you do feel the urge to write more about Lee (and Dee), I know that I'd be thrilled to read it.

Honestly, the reaction to Lee's depression reminds me so much of BtVS fandom's reaction to Buffy's S6/S7 depression. The desire for the depressed person to just get over it already. I'm thrilled for Lee, that he's found someone who does steady him and give him a place where he can be at peace. That's a precious thing and something that I don't think he can ever have with Kara, because that's just not who Kara is.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on February 3rd, 2007 07:10 am (UTC)
I'm thrilled for Lee, that he's found someone who does steady him and give him a place where he can be at peace. That's a precious thing and something that I don't think he can ever have with Kara, because that's just not who Kara is.
I agree. And I agree about fandom's reaction to the depression too. It's typical of people's reaction to sufferers of depression generally and it makes me rather ragey because it is the least compassionate and most damaging response. And as a sufferer of depression I can testify to the great blessing in finding someone who is an oasis of calm and peace. When your own internal world is so torturous, the last thing you need is to buy into someone else's torment.

I have no doubt I will post more on Lee when I get a chance--perhaps tomorrow when I've calmed down from SV! ;-)
Diana: Misery -- Leebutterfly on February 4th, 2007 01:43 am (UTC)
I agree about fandom's reaction to the depression too. It's typical of people's reaction to sufferers of depression generally and it makes me rather ragey because it is the least compassionate and most damaging response.

Indeed. 'Just get over it' is intensely unhelpful. I know that it never helped me! It baffles me how fandom can show so much collective compassion for those who are violently fucked-up and destroy others, yet so little for those who mostly hurt themselves.

And as a sufferer of depression I can testify to the great blessing in finding someone who is an oasis of calm and peace.

That sounds like a great comfort. I've found a measure of peace in the people that I care about, but the times when I feel truly calm are few and far between.

I have no doubt I will post more on Lee when I get a chance--perhaps tomorrow when I've calmed down from SV!

I look forward to it!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee in darknessbop_radar on February 4th, 2007 03:38 am (UTC)
It baffles me how fandom can show so much collective compassion for those who are violently fucked-up and destroy others, yet so little for those who mostly hurt themselves.
Oh, that's a brilliant call! ABSOLUTELY! That hits the nail on the head exactly. To be a bitch about Kara, for a moment, she's dangerous on a much bigger scale--her pain is turned outward, and while I know that Kara hurts herself too, she really does take it out on others and shows little remorse. Lee's pain is more confined--it hurts himself first and foremost and then those in his immediate inner circle, but only unconsciously. When confronted with that, he channels his pain even more purely against himself. (That icon is so ouchy painful of Lee!) He's such a sweetheart--it hurts me that people are so unforgiving of him. Because, as you say, they're able to be compassionate for the most extremely violent fuck-ups out there. How is Lee's 'crime' worse?!

I've found a measure of peace in the people that I care about, but the times when I feel truly calm are few and far between.
Most people--even my closest friends--ultimately exhaust me. That exhaustion can be exhilerating, but on a sustained basis I couldn't, for example, have a successful relationship based on it. The crashes are too deep, and I think that's where Lee's at right now. Dee may be 'unexciting' but perhaps stepping off the rollercoaster is exactly what Lee needs.

Right! I will def'ly polish some Lee thoughts this week, especially given there is no BSG. :-(
Diana: Misery -- Leebutterfly on February 5th, 2007 05:14 pm (UTC)
To be a bitch about Kara, for a moment, she's dangerous on a much bigger scale--her pain is turned outward, and while I know that Kara hurts herself too, she really does take it out on others and shows little remorse.

Exactly. I don't hate Kara... well, I really disliked her in the episode where Kat died, but apart from that, I really feel for her and want her to heal, too. Just... not at the expense of Lee. And at this point, it's obvious that they can't help each other heal -- all they do is cause more damage.

Lee's pain is more confined--it hurts himself first and foremost and then those in his immediate inner circle, but only unconsciously. When confronted with that, he channels his pain even more purely against himself. (That icon is so ouchy painful of Lee!) He's such a sweetheart--it hurts me that people are so unforgiving of him. Because, as you say, they're able to be compassionate for the most extremely violent fuck-ups out there. How is Lee's 'crime' worse?!

This really is the thing that I can't understand about fandom. It reminds of the many, many times that Lex is excused as misguided and not that bad, despite all the hurt that he causes. I actually think that the show has done a brilliant job of showing us why Lex acts the way that he does, but that doesn't actually make what he does right or even forgiveable. Honestly, ever since Clark saw the room of obsession in Lex's mansion, he's had all the reason in the world to doubt everything that Lex has ever said to him. Saying "it's not about you," when there are multiple massive pictures of the guy up is just not that believeable.

Both Lex and Kara had fucked-up childhoods. And that helps explain a lot about them. Both of them have also had traumatic adult lives and that explains more. But it doesn't excuse them when they hurt other people. Kara's mom hurting her doesn't mean that it's okay for her to hurt other people. She doesn't get a free pass. Feeling fucked-up inside doesn't mean that she's allowed to kick Gaeta while he's tied up and helpless.

Most people--even my closest friends--ultimately exhaust me. That exhaustion can be exhilerating, but on a sustained basis I couldn't, for example, have a successful relationship based on it. The crashes are too deep, and I think that's where Lee's at right now. Dee may be 'unexciting' but perhaps stepping off the rollercoaster is exactly what Lee needs.

Indeed. He doesn't have the same kind of passionate, explosive relationship with her that he does with Kara -- but that relationship is part of why he's so damaged now, so I don't find it all surprising that, given the choice, he's decided to stay with Dee. I think that trust is such an immensely important part of any relationship and while Lee can (and does) trust Kara as a pilot, he can't trust her with his heart. She's broken it far too many times.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lex torturebop_radar on February 5th, 2007 10:01 pm (UTC)
It reminds of the many, many times that Lex is excused as misguided and not that bad, despite all the hurt that he causes.
*whips out appropriate icon* Exactly! I was thinking of Lex too! It is a very similar phenomenon. And it's not as if I don't love those characters too. I was/am a HUGE Lex fan! But there's a point beyond which I cannot condone his actions and beyond which I cease to empathise with him any more. It's the same with Kara. I agree in both cases that it's been clearly conveyed why they are the way they are--and that's great television. But why should Lee be held personal accountable for his actions and not Kara? (Or Lex.)

Feeling fucked-up inside doesn't mean that she's allowed to kick Gaeta while he's tied up and helpless.
It really doesn't. And I know Adama kicked her ass back into gear, but we've never really see her repent for those actions and I'm not sure we ever will. Lee, on the other hand, is incredibly repentent when faced with his mistakes. And yes, there is a big difference between feeling remorse and acting better in the future--but I still feel he's a step further down that track than Kara, simply because he's that inch more self-aware.

Of course I understand feeling repugnance at watching a guy cheat emotionally on his wife and then not even follow through and pursue the woman he cheated with but abandon her as well. But on another level, I don't really understand it because we've been put in Lee's shoes so well--especially in this episode. Just as we were with Kara and Lex, we've been given the opportunity to understand his situation. Why is his pain so much harder to empathise with?! And it doesn't condone his actions, but I see so many people not even understanding them. I don't get it! *flails*

I think that trust is such an immensely important part of any relationship and while Lee can (and does) trust Kara as a pilot, he can't trust her with his heart. She's broken it far too many times.
Very well put--and a good point that Lee trusts Kara in some fields but not others. I think one of the reasons he would love to trust his heart with her is that he DOES trust her so much in other areas. But he DID trust his heart to her--wholly and absolutely--so his mistrust now is so easy to understand. Especially since Kara hasn't really demonstrated any fundamental shift to him. If there's been an internal one, she really needs to learn to show that to Lee. Lee's not exactly being irrational here--he's using the same kind of tactical assessment skills (hee!) as he uses as CAG. He's sussing the possible outcomes, and hey, I agree, they don't look good! I would have hated hated hated seeing those two get together only to have them rage at each other because they still totally misunderstand each other.

Arrrgh! I'm just ranting now! ;-)
daybreak777daybreak777 on February 13th, 2007 09:50 am (UTC)
Confessions of a selfish shipper
(I love playing in your journal, just don't want to go home!)

I’ve been reading your discussion with interest. Hmm. I was one of those people who didn’t understand Lee. Oh there are many reasons, most don’t have anything to do with the character as written I see now. I don’t instinctively get him, but I do like what I see of him. I think I expected Lee to be the “girl” in this relationship. To always understand Kara and always forgive her cause I did. But of course, Lee doesn’t know everything about Kara that we do. And in TaB, I wanted him to jump at her offer cause I want them to be together. Even though it’s probably crazy and wouldn’t work. I’ve been burnt by TV before. Ships I love are given one chance and then whoosh! other storylines are written and they never get back to where they were, not even by series ending. I feel this was their chance and even though they would probably crash and burn, I’d get to see it for a little while. So I was totally being selfish.

But the part that I’m not being selfish about is the utter truth of the chemistry and love between Kara and Lee. No matter how they hurt each other, how unhealthy it may be for them to act on it, it’s so present in their every scene. It’s always been there since the moment we first saw them together and it always will be. So part of the fun of watching the show is seeing them exist with the big elephant in the room that everyone can see but no one can talk properly about.

In real life maybe people settle with the kind of love that Lee has for Dee. If he had never met Kara, that would probably be fine with me. But --- he did meet her and this is TV. From TV I want grand romance and passion and am quite happy to watch it play out, burn out, until the drama is done. Maybe because that doesn’t always happen in real life. I believe in their love for each other and each of their spouses. Cause any one of them can die any day. It’s love and war and it’s Battlestar, where you find people you love and you hold on tight cause you don’t know if you’ll live to fight another day. I understand that of Kara, Dee, Lee and Sam. I just wanted Lee to hold on to Kara for a little while longer, whether it worked out or not. I don’t see them in a settled (whatever settled means on BSG) relationship on the show so the past few episodes may be all we may get. And he loves her so much. I have a lot of sympathy for him, but now I want to see him stand on his own and find his own way. I didn’t realize he was so damaged and I hope they show more of why Lee is the way he is. Then more people will understand him. The sympathy for Lee was always there, but he may always puzzle me. ‘Cause he’s different. Not just the sensitive feeling one, but the maverick leader as you said, and the one wanting home with Dee, and the hurt, disillusioned little boy, and the one who will always love Kara Thrace till his last breath even if it burns them both up and out.

So says the shipper. I will go down with this ship and if I drown with it well . . . what a way to go!

K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on February 13th, 2007 12:11 pm (UTC)
Re: Confessions of a selfish shipper
Oh, you don't have to go home! *offers pillows and bedding*

But of course, Lee doesn’t know everything about Kara that we do.
I think that's important to remember--in many ways Lee is 'locked out' of Kara's life. That image of them on either side of the wire fence, remember? He doesn't understand the fundamentals of what makes her the way she is, and it's really hard to be sympathetic to someone who doesn't let you in on that stuff. Kara keeps herself so shielded and she never uses excuses. It's like she's always wearing armour. Whereas it would really help Lee if he knew why she needs that armour! He doesn't, and while he has a LOT of good will towards her and is (I believe) extremely forgiving and loves her despite all the pain she dishes out, I can really understand his frustration. When someone hurts you and you have no idea why, well, you get angry.

I don't know if you're being 'selfish' about your K/L shipper feelings. I don't see that stuff as selfish. It's just the way you watch a show. We all have hopes that we project onto shows. I guess I'm a little more optimistic than you though--I'm not sure this is the end of the story for them. Perhaps I haven't been burned so badly! (Besides, there's always fanfic!)

But the part that I’m not being selfish about is the utter truth of the chemistry and love between Kara and Lee.
Oh, I definitely agree about that! I adore it too and it's why I consider myself a K/L shipper. The above conversation may seem to negate that, but for me it really doesn't. I looove the chemistry--it sends me into spasms of glee--and in my dreams those two live on forever together with fireworks and puppies and the works. And as you say, this is TV! I want to see the drama! I don't believe in destiny in real life, but it makes damn good entertainment and I soak it right up. I love it when they play with them as destined figures.

But right now. On the show. I do not want to see them together, because as a Lee fan, I know it would absolutely destroy him. DESTROY. There's a balance of power in any relationship. If Lee had said 'sure!' to Kara's 'so you'll still leave Dee?' he would have been throwing all his power away. How can I explain this? *frowns* Dammit, I knew I should get round to writing that big Lee post that I have brewing in my head... still! For me, this was more of a balancing out of the power. Kara rejected Lee once, now Lee's rejected her. Lee stood back and watched her PDA with Sam unfeelingly in front of him, and what did we see in this latest ep? Lee PDAing with Dee unfeelingly in front of Kara. A sort of balance is being achieved, and that gives me hope that their story will continue... I would have felt it was more of an endpoint if they'd got together. Because you know what the next episode would have been? Kara cheating and Lee topping himself. Ok, I exaggerate--that might have taken a good many more episodes to drag out. And maybe Lee would just have become bitter and horrible instead. Or killed himself to save her in some final self-sacrificing act. And I don't actually want any of those things! Not without some real love from Kara in return!

didn’t realize he was so damaged and I hope they show more of why Lee is the way he is. Then more people will understand him. The sympathy for Lee was always there, but he may always puzzle me. ‘Cause he’s different. Not just the sensitive feeling one, but the maverick leader as you said, and the one wanting home with Dee, and the hurt, disillusioned little boy, and the one who will always love Kara Thrace till his last breath even if it burns them both up and out.
You say you don't understand him, but that's a pretty good description! ;-)

Don't apologise for being a shipper. Shippers have more fun! ;-) (I don't have any issue with shippers at all--it's the Lee-bashing I've found hard to take/understand. I didn't find him out of character at ALL, and unlike many others I don't feel this was the death knell for all K/L-ness. Btw, if you haven't seen, _wisteria has a cheery K/L post up at the moment!)
Mistress Spinmlsky on February 11th, 2007 07:48 am (UTC)
First, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts on this episode. And I think I'm with you...the more I watch the more that jumps out at me making me love it that much more. I loved your insights and see things much the same.

Second, I hope you don't mind, but I'm adding you to my flist. *smiles*

Nice to meet ya!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee gay pornbop_radar on February 11th, 2007 08:34 am (UTC)
Oh, hi! *waves* Thank you for your comment! It's good to know that I wasn't completely alone in my response to this ep. ;-) And yes, good to meet you too! *friends back*