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03 February 2007 @ 02:06 pm
Smallville 6.13 Crimson (Part I)  
And it managed to span the emotional spectrum from hilarity to profound emotion. From the beginning of the episode I was giggling at the over-the-top cherubs and Clois set-up, but I didn't expect this episode to also deliver the most significant Clex scene of the season so far. *flails* And this episode touched on pretty much all ships--Chlark, Clana, Lexana, Clark/Oliver, Chimmy, even a Mionel mention. And I haven't even mentioned RedK yet!

RedK eps are always fascinating for exploring Clark's psychology, for the reason that Martha articulated at the end of this episode--there is a grain of truth in what he says when his inhibitions are stripped away from him. And truth-saying in Smallville has a kind of violence to it, so profoundly successful is the usual silence around certain subjects. This episode had a lot to say about Clark at this point in time--it's been a long time since we've seen him on RedK and his emotional landscape has shifted since then (though some things remain the same). Additionally, others' reactions to Clark revealed a lot about them and the dynamics of their relationships.

Hot fudge and halibut
Emotionally, Clark and Lois are in a very similar place at the start of this episode--smarting from the failure of their relationships and cranky with Valentines Day. They are contrasted with Chloe and Jimmy who have lost their cynicism where V-Day is concerned. This worked brilliantly for the humour--Clark's monotone 'welcome to the lovefest' line being my particular favourite--though I also liked watching them have totally nothing to say to each other at the bar while Chloe and Jimmy conferred. I love that it was Jimmy's idea--it's so cute that he ships them! And it works within the show because as an outsider to the group, Jimmy's more free to see their potential than Chloe who is too close to both of them.

When Lois puts on the Red-K-laced lipstick she sees Clark come into focus over her shoulder. Apart from being a great shot, this works emotionally since Clark has been close to her, just over her shoulder, for some time now (usually because she's turned her back on him!) With the RedK infecting her (hey, this is SV, we don't have to go into the whys and hows!), she falls for him--the attraction is not just physical, it's romantic. She doesn't just chase him down straight away. She goes home and makes him a Whitesnake CD. Apart from the extreme hilarity of this, it's interesting that the writers chose to play the romanticism card. It worked for me because it pushed Lois more out of character, more obviously 'under the influence', than her simply getting the hots for Clark. At the end of the episode, when she presses for the details of their liaison, she doesn't seem that flapped about the possibility that they had sex. Sex doesn't hold the same omg!significance that it has for Clark or Lana, for example. But the romanticism is a shock--both to Lois and Clark. When Clark jokingly hands her the CD, he was just trying to win the round of banter--he couldn't let Lois have the last word with 'would have been the highlight of your life'. But when he sees her reaction ('I must have really liked you') the grin falls away. I think until then Clark had found the Lois aspect simply amusing--but this shifted it to something more significant.

Lois's arrival at the Kent household was comic brilliance--I loved Martha's reactions. You could see her thinking 'wow, Lois has lost it! And indeed, judging by her outfit, she had. Lois doesn't have innate good clothes sense, and she's been shown to be particularly lacking in discretion when she's in an emotional flap about a guy (the S5 deleted scene where she needed Martha's help to choose a date outfit springs to mind). She's such a dag! And her clothes in this ep were truly cringe-worthy.

I love Clark's reaction in this scene. Before he sees her, he's started showing her sympathy, apologising for the night before. He's kind-hearted where Lois is concerned now. But he's also more vulnerable to her physical charms--he gets completely distracted when he sees her in that outfit. And she unsettles him completely by taking his hand and commenting on how big and strong they are. That totally hit all Clark's buttons, but he tries to resist it. He seems almost relieved when the mix CD is produced, because it throws him right back into that safe place where Lois is a ridiculously dorky friend, not a hypnotically attractive woman. But ironically this is Lois at her most romantic--Clark just doesn't realise it yet.

Lois hits Clark's buttons in a lot of ways in this season--simple physical attraction predominating, but also her repetition of her attraction to how big and strong he is. Clark likes people to like that. But he's also turned on when Lois says she's going to tell him something secret--she'd kill him if he told anyone else. Clark's eyes flicker at that. Secrets are a bond in the Smallville universe, and it turns him on to think he might have one with Lois. The 'secret' is so hilarious it's easy to dismiss it--that she likes slowdancing in the arms of a big strong guy. But actually for Lois to admit this is really intimate. For Clark it contains two strong emotions--arousal at her attraction to his size and strength, but also FEAR at the dancing. Heeeee! That cutaway of him zooming out of the room was one of the best comic moments on Smallville ever!

The fear isn't related only to the dancing though, for we see Clark run for help to Chloe. That was a super-cute scene! Clark producing the CD as definitive proof of Lois's infatuation, Chloe pissing herself over it, Clark whining that it's not funny! But the reason Clark is taking this so seriously is partly because he knows that he is vulnerable to her 'strikes'. Though apparently he is NOT turned on my temporary tattoos--that just freaks him! ;-)

When RedK Clark kicks in with the kiss, naturally the landscape shifts. Faced with a more-than-willing Lois in front of him, she instantly becomes the focus of his attention. His inhibitions stripped away, he pursues her with determination. When she attempts to check that this is 'for real' he says whatever she needs to hear. FANTASTIC acting from Tom on that 'oh yeah, this couldn't be more real' line. However, things don't stay all about Lois for very long...

Clark's masculinity
In many ways this episode was the 'Clark's a MAN now' episode--he's not a timid boy any more and it frustrates him that that's not always recognised by others. He's been alone this season, while others pursued relationships, and we've seen his loneliness. But with his inhibitions stripped away RedK!Clark confirms that he's also felt the unjustness of this--there's a part of Clark that thinks 'but I'm more man than Lex/Oliver/Jimmy--why aren't they with me?!'

When Lois recognises his kiss and is excited that he's the Green Arrow, Clark replies 'hardly' in a dismissive tone. He recycles Oliver's own words in stating that he's in a different league than Oliver. And he hates the Lois is attracted to his normalcy, to the dorky farmboy. This is particularly fascinating because with Lana Clark longed for her to be satisfied and attracted to that normalcy. But the RedK Clark is not content with winning a woman with his normalcy alone--he has to prove his masculinity more definitely and more spectacularly. And preferably in contrast to another man.

There was no need for Clark's interactions with Lois to be about Oliver--Lois was already completely over him, so emotionally there was no need for the Clois to include and mention of Oliver. Yet Clark deliberately chose to assert himself in contrast to Ollie. He picks the most extreme of his powers to show Lois--something that noone else but Clark can do--flight. Absurdly, Jon Jonzz can also do this but he's so completely not on Clark's radar at this point in time, that I feel he doesn't count--he certainly doesn't count to Clark. Annoyingly. And then he chooses Oliver's apartment as the place to consummate his seduction of Lois. He breaks in, penetrating a space that was previously a site of intimacy between Lois and Oliver, and between Clark and Oliver. There was some great symbolism too in placing Lois between Oliver's hidden Green Arrow closet and Clark. She's almost guarding it, without realising that Clark's already been given access to that space--that it's her who was excluded from part of Oliver's life.

Consummation is on the cards, until Clark catches sight of the invitation--or rather the LL, I imagine, since he doesn't know until he picks it up exactly what that card is. So I'm guessing it was those significant initials, in Lex's trademark signature, that stood out to him. It was that or Lex's name, since Lana's name was on the side of the invite facing the audience--he has to turn it round to read that. So, er, apparently Lex has the ability to stop an aroused Clark in his tracks. Hee.

I have a LOT more to say about the Clex in the rest of this ep, but I think that deserves a post of its own. In the meantime, let me wrap up about Lois. Once rejected (awwwwww), Lois takes her comfort in eating everyone's desserts. I love that girl! I love that there were only three left--clearly she'd already eaten her way through the rest. Lois is resilient--she tells herself 'I was too good for him anyway'. I love that even RedK-affected Lois has that capacity! And I loved Jimmy's line: 'It's so weird to see her acting like a girl!'. For that's true--Lois isn't traditionally feminine in the Smallville universe, which is one of the reasons, I believe, that Clark's so attracted to her. Lois is unique in being able to arouse Clark despite himself--she irritates the hell out of him and he still can't help it. That's so unlike Clark! Usually he requires some kind of connection to feel attracted to a girl--a shared power, a shared secret, or the promise of the 'perfect normal life'. Lois offers none of the yes, and yet she still tugs him into attraction. But it comes as a surprise that she is a girl, that she does have romantic feelings and that she is capable of real emotion where he's concerned.

Their final barn scene unpacked this perfectly. Interestingly, as Lois enters the loft she calls out 'girl alert! I never know what I'll find in the grown man's clubhouse!' This has never happened before. Noone has felt the need to warn Clark of their arrival. Noone has recognised that he IS a grown man and that he may just be doing something, er, private up there. I really liked that shift because it reflected the fact that in this episode, Clark's masculinity was foregrounded and asserted successfully. He's not a boy any more. It was cute that it was actually Martha up there--but she is also respectful of her son's need for privacy, leaving promptly, just as she did when Lois arrived earlier in the ep.

Lois is unlike other Smallville characters in wanting to know what happened when she lost her memory. She wants 'the gory details' where others have shied away from them or been content with a glossed-over version. Lois seeks the details out--she'd rather face up to it, however embarrassing. Clark teases Lois, trying to get her to say the words--the suggestion that they might have had sex. And then he's so kind to her and says 'no, I think I'd remember' in quite a kindly tone. Of course, she can't have that--so she punches out the 'highlight of your life' line and Clark tries to reestablish their jokey relationship of oneupmanship by producing the CD. Only it doesn't quite work how he expected. There's more there, more resonance to this relationship, than Clark expected. Awww!

I LOVE THEM!!!

Ok, I'm going to have to break this post up. *headdesk* Damn, I get wordy! I have SO MUCH MORE to say!
 
 
Current Location: sofa of comfiness
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois kissbop_radar on February 3rd, 2007 06:45 am (UTC)
Heeee! I'm so glad you enjoyed them. I was in absolute delight. And then the episode delivered in so many other ways as well.
CapnZebbie: stalkerkittycapnzebbie on February 3rd, 2007 06:01 am (UTC)
Wonderful meta on Lois and Clark :) I'm looking forward to the Clark/Lex meta!

After seeing everyone's squeeing comments, I'm seeing the episode in a different way, and liking it much more than I did while I was watching it. Thanks for that!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: SV multiship lovebop_radar on February 3rd, 2007 06:46 am (UTC)
Thank you! I'm glad the squee is infectious because my joy could not be greater where this ep is concerned. \o/
Grimorie: snow womangrimorie on February 3rd, 2007 07:12 am (UTC)
Love your thoughts about Lois and Clark, have to admit was skeptical about Crimson when I first saw it and I'm glad that they went that route. It's so easy to see why Clark and Lois will end up together -- it's because they're so light and fun, so very different from all the other relationships Clark has in the series!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois kissbop_radar on February 3rd, 2007 07:48 am (UTC)
:-) Thanks! Yes, I agree--the lightness and humour is in such stark contrast to Clark's other relationships. He will learn to value that and it certainly is enjoyable for the viewer.
Cris: Lois - smileduskwillow on February 3rd, 2007 12:09 pm (UTC)
Yes, our show is back to being awesome!! &hearts

I enjoyed Crimson so much.

How cool was the part with "I am your future, Lana is the past" "And this is the present" (or something like that).
He didn't deny that Lois is his future. :D
So many cool Clois moments.

Consummation is on the cards, until Clark catches sight of the invitation--or rather the LL, I imagine, since he doesn't know until he picks it up exactly what that card is. So I'm guessing it was those significant initials, in Lex's trademark signature, that stood out to him. It was that or Lex's name, since Lana's name was on the side of the invite facing the audience--he has to turn it round to read that. So, er, apparently Lex has the ability to stop an aroused Clark in his tracks. Hee.
Oy, thank you!! I didn't realize this, but you're right - he would have seen only Lex's name on that invite. *g*
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois searchingbop_radar on February 3rd, 2007 12:34 pm (UTC)
How cool was the part with "I am your future, Lana is the past" "And this is the present" (or something like that). He didn't deny that Lois is his future. :D
Yeah I know!! *bounces around wildly* Clois glory!!

he would have seen only Lex's name on that invite. *g*
Yuuuuuuuup! I think it was easy to miss that, but only we could see Lana's name--Clark turns it round to read that bit.
Lacylacylaces on February 3rd, 2007 01:58 pm (UTC)
Your review of Crimson is excellent. You really thoughtfully explore Lois and Clark and set out very plausible reasons for them to be attracted to each other. And you make it easier to see the potential for Lois' character and potential for Clois that I could never appreciate before. I think you definitely understand Lois and Clark far better than the writers and producers of SV.

I did love how being under the love potion really did make Lois act in overtly girly ways that she is so not interested in normally. And Jimmy's comment on this was very funny! He really does bring an outsider perspective on all the characters, doesn't he?
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois Chloe comfort foodbop_radar on February 4th, 2007 12:23 am (UTC)
Thank you for the kind comments! Yes, Jimmy's a wonderful outsider perspective--I've always been a fan of shows including a character with that outside perspective. I think it works really well for the viewers. And in Smallville's case it is so easy to be lulled into thinking that all the lies and secrecy are 'normal' and 'legitimate' because we know Clark's real secret. So Jimmy's really refreshing.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois kissbop_radar on February 4th, 2007 12:32 am (UTC)
Re: now, since it's the weekend ...
Whee! Yay, yes I have time to properly reply!

to the extent that Clark is hampered by the repress/deny approach to a lot of his emotions/relationships, I think that can be put down to how Jonathan and Martha raised him, with that constant emphasis on "Hide. Blend in. Do not call attention to yourself," etc. I would have liked a teensy bit more self-awareness from Martha during that part of the scene because Clark didn't learn to be that way in a vaccum.
I absolutely agree with that and I experienced the same emotion on watching that scene. In fact I think I may have just blinked in disbelief on first viewing because it was nothing I ever expected to come out of Martha's mouth. But I appreciated it as a shift--though, yes, some self-awareness on Martha's part would be very welcome. Particularly since one of Clark's RedK calls about her was, imo, legitimate--what WAS she doing at that dinner? I get the sense that this won't be addressed between them until the Mionel comes to a head and there's a big confrontation about it. Martha could avoid this by taking her own advice and addressing the situation with her son. But I don't think she will.

e learn that Lois has something else in common with Clark in terms of their core personalities: she is, like him, at heart a romantic.
Yeah, I love thos subtle signals that they align! My first thought on seeing Lois walk into the cherub-bedecked Talon was that those two might bond over their mutual hatred of the holiday. It was even better than that--they showed that their surface revulsion belied a deep desire for romance underneath. Hee!

I really am kind of baffled that anyone could fail to pick up on his impressive playing of "Clark likes all of this, even though it's (a) to his surprise and (2) despite himself." I really got that from him: Clark is flustered and taken aback, but he's also intrigued and appreciative in spite of his usual annoyance with Lois. It was a great scene.
Oh, yes! It was an acting tour-de-force from Tom! He plays helpless arousal incredibly well and it's always brilliant to watch. But this was one of the most layered pieces of helpless arousal I've seen on the show, because he was clearly fighting it as well. You could almost see his thought process!

I love it that she's mind-whammied, but she's still enough of herself to threaten to kill Clark. :::hearts::
Yes! And how brilliant was it that even on RedK they were bickering with each other and annoying one another!! Hee! But that still led to a balcony scene! Oh, they're so brilliant!

(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Oliverbop_radar on March 16th, 2007 11:33 pm (UTC)
Re: now, since it's the weekend ...
Heee! Thank you for the lovely comment! :-) I loved Teri Hatcher's Lois too. And I highly recommend watching Crimson at some stage if you get the chance--it was absolutely Clois GOLD! And I too am delighted that SV's finally getting to go there. They were initially constrained by DC in what they could do, but it's paid off in the end.
(Deleted comment)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois Chloe comfort foodbop_radar on February 4th, 2007 12:37 am (UTC)
Re: part II
Oh, I'll go read your theory in a sec! Sounds really interesting--I agree that it was strongly established at the start of this episode that his V-Day emotions were largely related to Lexana.

I am so glad you (and many others, it seems!) enjoyed this episode. I was in heaven! I think Kelly and Brian handle Clois really brilliantly so when I saw it was them writing this ep, I got really excited. As you say--it was very subtle and balanced hinting at their future with respecting the fact that they're not there yet. That's so important! Despite adoring them, I do NOT want them to hijack this show with inappropriately early Clois. But I'll love it if they continue to play with the Clois idea every once in a while. And it's just so refreshing in contrast to the oppressive angst of the Lexana plot!
Vicki: MR as jackmyownghost on February 3rd, 2007 04:12 pm (UTC)
>truth-saying in Smallville has a kind of violence to it

yes, it does, doesn't it? that's a very acute perception.

like several others, above, you've made me appreciate the episode more than i did before. your take on lois is particularly enjoyable. i like her better now for having read this! (actually, she used to be nothing but annoying to me. this episode made me realize that she's worth liking.)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois Chloe comfort foodbop_radar on February 4th, 2007 12:39 am (UTC)
Thank you for the kind comment! I'm particularly excited to see people warming to Lois--she is worth liking! But I think the writers are really delivering on her potential now in ways that they never have before. While I've always liked her, it's frustrated me to see the writers let her languish (in S5 for example).
darenothope: Season 4 Clois.darenothope on February 5th, 2007 10:42 am (UTC)
I so totally loved all your Clois analysis.

I love Clois. They're just just awesome.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois hugbop_radar on February 5th, 2007 09:46 pm (UTC)
Thank you, thank you!! They are SO GREAT! It's so exciting watching this ship finally come into its own. And seeing so many people convert to it. All that glowy potential! Wheee!
president of the back seat: Romance: Clois superkissvibrantharmony on February 7th, 2007 04:46 am (UTC)
*happy sigh*

CLARK AND LOIS YAY! I was so excited to watch this ep, and now that I finally have - well. *squeeeeees*
And I love reading your analysis of all the things that I miss!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Clois Crimsonbop_radar on February 7th, 2007 06:08 am (UTC)
Oh, thank you, hon! And YES!!! *SQUUEEEEEEEEEE* Clark and Lois! Clark and Lois! *twirls* They are SO GREAT!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois let's talk about sexbop_radar on February 7th, 2007 06:09 am (UTC)
Oh, if you haven't seen it yet, I pimp supacat's Clois thoughts.
latteaddict: Lois & Clarklatteaddict on June 18th, 2007 01:34 pm (UTC)
Wow, you really stripped that right down, didn't you.

Excellent insight into the episode and Clark and Lois as a new relationship. Despite the Lana interlude in the middle, I think it was important the episode began and ended with Clark/Lois. It was like they finally looked at each other in a different way.

Your episode review actually makes me excited for BSG next year. I can't wait to see you explain to me the wankiness RDM will throw our way. I find I'm already preparing the cell I'll be throwing Lee into...so far he has a pillow and a roll of toilet paper (my fears are already starting to prey upon me and we still have seven months to go!)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lois kicks assbop_radar on June 19th, 2007 12:28 am (UTC)
Wow, you really stripped that right down, didn't you.
Hee--I'm a little long-winded. *blush*

I think it was important the episode began and ended with Clark/Lois. It was like they finally looked at each other in a different way.
Yeah, definitely. I think Lois represents a more adult, mature relationship for Clark--not necessarily here where they're both acting out their fantasies, but overall in the series there are suggestions that she wants more of Clark than just the pedestal figure that Lana sees. She'll demand equality and maturity in a relationship with him.

I can't wait to see you explain to me the wankiness RDM will throw our way
Ha! Oh, well, I'll do my best...

I find I'm already preparing the cell I'll be throwing Lee into..
And I'm already being accused of never trusting Kara. ;-) daybreak777 keeps telling me off for that. Which is sweet, but I'm always going to have my fears, I think. I'm bracing myself for Kara running back to Anders and a whole lot of tedious Anders-is-a-Cylon angst. :-( How you doin' with the whole spoilerfree thing so far? I guess no really big spoilers have leaked yet.
latteaddict: Space between uslatteaddict on June 19th, 2007 03:29 am (UTC)
And I'm already being accused of never trusting Kara. ;-) daybreak777 keeps telling me off for that. Which is sweet, but I'm always going to have my fears, I think.

I don't trust Lee very much, I actually get a cold pit in my stomach each time I think about how he might act towards her in season 4, so I guess we share similar fears that each pilot will let the other one down terribly.

I'm bracing myself for Kara running back to Anders and a whole lot of tedious Anders-is-a-Cylon angst. :-(

If Kara runs back to Sam it will be because - a) Lee doesn't receive her well/or completely rejects her, and Sam's all she has. b) Kara returns with the knowledge that Lee's marriage was the best it's ever been and she's going to respect that. c) Sam completely pursues her and, you know, actually expresses his emotions and makes Kara feel wanted.

But, I really don't see much happening relationship wise with Kara/Sam. I think his new Cylon storyline will be enough to make him part of the show without it being how many nights he visits Kara's bunk. I'm optimistic. But if season 4 starts off with Lee doing the whole crying jag again to try and win Dee back, I'll start praying Kara/Sam start trying for little half-toaster babies.

How you doin' with the whole spoilerfree thing so far? I guess no really big spoilers have leaked yet.

I think I'm doing okay. I've seen a few video interviews with the cast from their recent event, but that's just small hints or opinions, not cold hard spoilers. I've been good and haven't looked at secret_cylon, and battlestar_blog has posted spoilers today but I diligently kept scrolling and didn't click!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: spoilerphobic!bop_radar on June 19th, 2007 04:44 am (UTC)
I guess we share similar fears that each pilot will let the other one down terribly.
Yeah, I think so. It's just different angles on the same thing. And I think neither of us want to see them go back to their spouses. I think that would be very poor storytelling apart from anything else. Even for non-shippers it would be boring and tedious to see Lee chase after Dee again. In character terms, her leaving him when she did should be clear indication to him that she doesn't see the 'real Lee', and that her love's not as pure as he's held it up to be. I do think it's possible that Kara will return with the idea of being respectful of Lee's marriage--that fits with how we saw her act in Maelstrom. I don't expect her to return and pursue Lee. My main fear for them is not Lee, so much as TPTB thinking up some new 'brilliant' obstacle to throw in the way. That will either be Sam, or it'll be something Lee-related. Not Dee, I think, but perhaps a plot thing--like separating them physically again. Arrrrrgggghhh! And of course TPTB could keep writing both of them as eternally mistimed with one another... but surely they see that it's time for them to get the timing RIGHT for once?! *hopes*

And yeah, I'm the same--watched some cast interviews but steering clear of the 'real' spoilers. Yay! We can do this!
latteaddict: Either you want me or you don'tlatteaddict on June 19th, 2007 05:33 am (UTC)
And I think neither of us want to see them go back to their spouses. I think that would be very poor storytelling apart from anything else.

we can see that, but I get the feeling that Ron doesn't like to admit defeat. He spent two seasons and made Lee and Kara be married for YEARS in the BSG 'verse. Technically, all the K/L 'shippers have is a few months of happy, buddy-cop pilots in season 1 who used to finger paint and play with garden hoses. The next three years was nothing but angst except for a single night. It's not much to go on. The character of Sam has been generally well accepted and come into his own, whereas Dee has been universally hated (except by 3% of fandom) so I feel Ron will still try to redeem her and his decision to put her with Apollo....because Ron's a man and men have pride and hate admitting they're wrong. I remember reading some Q&A's many months ago linked from the forums and someone had the gall to complain about a storyline and Ron's response was to dig his heals in and express a desire to continue with the storyline just to piss this person off. Plus I'm fully convinced Mrs.Ron hates Starbuck (and possibly Katee). *iz paranoid*

Even for non-shippers it would be boring and tedious to see Lee chase after Dee again.

You think so? Kara's character got really messed up in season 3 and so many people hated the quadrangle. And Lee was basically emasculated. I think people who actively don't 'ship K/L would like to see Lee and Kara become better people and honour their marriages.

Unfortunately, Ron has pushed the realms of believability too far and has left a bitter taste in everyone's mouth...no matter who you 'ship.

In character terms, her leaving him when she did should be clear indication to him that she doesn't see the 'real Lee', and that her love's not as pure as he's held it up to be.

And wasn't Dee's exit a non-event? People can watch the finale and miss that it ever happened. Did you know that Dee leaving was never a proper story arc in the grand scheme of things? Ron clearly states in the podcast that he added her scene at the last minute because he thought it was a great idea to have Lee completely isolated and no one left in his corner.

My main fear for them is not Lee, so much as TPTB thinking up some new 'brilliant' obstacle to throw in the way.

I think we can count on it!

If we really had to struggle through another season of pilot angst, I'd much rather it be a scenario where pilots (and the audience) know they are madly in love and want to be together, but circumstances get in the way. And we see them struggle to overcome the obstacles and never doubt they are both dearly loved during the journey. It's the shitty story telling that tries to keep Lee and Kara evenly divided as to who they love which drives me insane. Pick one for frak's sake and be done with it. The journey of indecision is not exciting and interesting, it's annoying and grating. At least for me.

And yeah, I'm the same--watched some cast interviews but steering clear of the 'real' spoilers. Yay! We can do this!

*whoot!* GO US!!! :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on June 19th, 2007 05:55 am (UTC)
Ron's a man and men have pride and hate admitting they're wrong.
Hahaha, yeah, well there's no arguing with that! I agree. Though he's been neglectful of Dee for so long now, that he really only has himself to blame. It'd be too little too late now. Though whether he's wise enough to see that is another matter. I have the flipside of your fear about Dee; I think the fact Sam HAS been accepted so readily is just going to give TPTB more fuel for pushing Kara/Sam as OTP. The 'human and Cylon overcome all odds' plot. *vomits*

I'm fully convinced Mrs.Ron hates Starbuck (and possibly Katee). *iz paranoid*
Really?! Heavens, I never got that feeling! Besides which I often wish Mrs Ron would reign Ron in a bit more--she seems quite ineffectual. So have no fears!

think people who actively don't 'ship K/L would like to see Lee and Kara become better people and honour their marriages.
I don't know. I have quite a few non-shippers on my f'list and most of them seem fed up with ALL the ships. Most seem to be of the opin that Lee and Kara need to spend some good solid time on their own. Of course, maybe they were just expressing frustration at the end of the season and come next season they'll wish the marriages were more honourable... but I don't know. I think only a tiny group of people think Lee/Dee is a healthy ship. Others think it could have been but it's too late now.

And wasn't Dee's exit a non-event? People can watch the finale and miss that it ever happened.
Yup.

Ron clearly states in the podcast that he added her scene at the last minute because he thought it was a great idea to have Lee completely isolated and no one left in his corner.
I know. This is the sort of thing that makes me think Ron never ever thinks of things from Dee's character pov. I don't see him changing that now, even to prove a point. I suspect he'll be pushing some other new showy endgame in S4 anyway.

I'd much rather it be a scenario where pilots (and the audience) know they are madly in love and want to be together, but circumstances get in the way. And we see them struggle to overcome the obstacles and never doubt they are both dearly loved during the journey.
*nods* I think it's time for that. I really think we have seen love on both sides--perhaps to different degrees at different times and with different expectations--but it's absurd to be still going round the houses about whether they're really attracted to each other or not. I think maybe I had slightly more patience for the indecision/confusion--I think being confused about love is human and it was ok as a plot to a point--but it's gone on long enough. So I'm with you. Give us the 'they love each other but their love will have to wait' plot, rather than more nonsensical dithering.

GO US!!! :)
*high fives*
latteaddict: Not Dreaming [UB]latteaddict on June 19th, 2007 06:31 am (UTC)
I have the flipside of your fear about Dee; I think the fact Sam HAS been accepted so readily is just going to give TPTB more fuel for pushing Kara/Sam as OTP. The 'human and Cylon overcome all odds' plot. *vomits*

I won't say your fear is not valid because I guess it is possible. Kara/Sam made sense as a couple and it's only when you compare it to the good glimpses of what Kara/Lee could be, do we see that Kara/Sam is ultimately lacking. Sam is not Kara's equal, just like Dee is not Lee's. The potential Lee and Kara have of a truly exciting and loyal and loving relationship is outstanding. And I think that's partly because their scope involves all aspects of the human condition, not just attraction/romance. Think of how exciting it was to see them fighting side by side, passing guns back and forth on Kobol in Home1. Compare it to how Sam totally took a back seat in LDYB2 when they were all holed up on Caprica surrounded by Cylons. He was fairly ineffectual. If Lee had been there, he and Kara would've been getting the job done together.

But it makes me extremely sad and disappointed to think Ron will forgo exploring just how great Lee/Kara could be just to extend the angst and the will they/won't they mentality.

And the storyline of 'human and Cylon overcome all odds' has already been done to death with Helo/Sharon and retroactively, between Chief/Cally. Surely Ron can come up with something better than that. Plus, I do believe it was deliberate to put Sam with Tory and Seelix in the finale. It might be the start of breaking the romantic connection between Kara/Sam.

I don't know. I have quite a few non-shippers on my f'list and most of them seem fed up with ALL the ships. Most seem to be of the opin that Lee and Kara need to spend some good solid time on their own.

That's true. I've seen those comments around too.

but it's absurd to be still going round the houses about whether they're really attracted to each other or not.

agreed!

So I'm with you. Give us the 'they love each other but their love will have to wait' plot, rather than more nonsensical dithering.

lol, I say we trade mark Ron into RDMND™ (Ronald D. Moore, nonsensical ditherer)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee/Kara boundbop_radar on June 19th, 2007 06:54 am (UTC)
it's only when you compare it to the good glimpses of what Kara/Lee could be, do we see that Kara/Sam is ultimately lacking
Mmm, I differ from you there. I think they had great potential as a couple and initially seemed like a good thing for each other, but their most recent incarnation (with Kara using Sam for sex and no give and take) is highly unhealthy, imo, independent of the existence or non-existence of Kara/Lee. I don't mean to slam the ship--but I don't personally view it as that great and shiny right now. And though I don't understand Kara that well, it seemed like that came about not because of Lee but because Kara wasn't coping post-NC. She could be better now of course...

If Lee had been there, he and Kara would've been getting the job done together.
Heee! That is a very encouraging thought, yes. They are so great when they work together--equals and partners and they make a whole greater than the sum of their parts. *adores*

But it makes me extremely sad and disappointed to think Ron will forgo exploring just how great Lee/Kara could be just to extend the angst and the will they/won't they mentality
Me too! Such wasted potential! *weeps for it*

And the storyline of 'human and Cylon overcome all odds' has already been done to death with Helo/Sharon and retroactively, between Chief/Cally
Yeah, that's true. Good point! :)

do believe it was deliberate to put Sam with Tory and Seelix in the finale. It might be the start of breaking the romantic connection between Kara/Sam.
Well, there's always seemed to be a point to things like that in the past. I remember dismissing the flirtation with Dee, for example... So that is an encouraging thought.

I say we trade mark Ron into RDMND™ (Ronald D. Moore, nonsensical ditherer)
Good idea! I swear the man needs a good editor to sort out his continuity issues and poor story-telling.
latteaddict: Wanna do it againlatteaddict on June 19th, 2007 07:30 am (UTC)
but their most recent incarnation (with Kara using Sam for sex and no give and take) is highly unhealthy, imo, independent of the existence or non-existence of Kara/Lee. I don't mean to slam the ship--but I don't personally view it as that great and shiny right now. And though I don't understand Kara that well, it seemed like that came about not because of Lee but because Kara wasn't coping post-NC. She could be better now of course...

oh, it was wrong and Kara was very aware that she was treating him badly.

There is wiggle room in this scenario, though. Did Sam stick with her as part of his programming? Did he feel a compulsion to be as close to Kara as she would let him? RDMND™ could explore this if he wanted to, or he could leave it as simply an outward sign that their marriage was not a good marriage.

Let's hope that S4 being the end means RDMND™ no longer has time to waste or fill up with wank. The last thing we need is yet another season of guest stars and B-characters taking up the last few glory moments of the show's main cast. Lee and Kara were not used enough in season 3 and I think the show suffered because of it. They are supposed to be the young hope for humanity, the heroes of the Fleet (and have at least one fat pilot baby because Kara liked the look on Lee's face when he spoke about teaching his kid to swim and play Pyramid)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!bop_radar on June 19th, 2007 08:30 am (UTC)
Kara was very aware that she was treating him badly.
Really? Wah! I am so eternally clueless when it comes to that girl!

There is wiggle room in this scenario, though
Just as you say. *nods*

They are supposed to be the young hope for humanity, the heroes of the Fleet (and have at least one fat pilot baby because Kara liked the look on Lee's face when he spoke about teaching his kid to swim and play Pyramid)
Heeeeee. :D Apparently my subconscious wants that too. And I know my conscious mind wants lots of hot pilot!sex... *crossing fingers*
latteaddict: Dark Dreams - Kara Maelstromlatteaddict on June 19th, 2007 09:18 am (UTC)
Really? Wah! I am so eternally clueless when it comes to that girl!

The proof is in the exchange between Kara/Sam in TAB...

Kara: "You're being awfully accommodating."
Sam: "Is that how it looks to you?"
Kara: "You're estranged, two-timing, bitch of a wife calls you up for a quickie and you hop on the first shuttle? I'd say Yeah."

So she's fully aware of how she's treating him...

But despite how this exchange makes Kara look, I find it easier to respect her brutal honesty as opposed to how Lee treats his marriage. Unless you want to convince me Lee was telling the absolute truth to Dee, in which case there is no point in 'shipping K/L at all.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara can't notbop_radar on June 19th, 2007 09:33 am (UTC)
So she's fully aware of how she's treating him...
Ah! Thanks--yeah, I'd forgotten that exchange.

I find it easier to respect her brutal honesty as opposed to how Lee treats his marriage.
I respect her honesty, but I don't like the fact that she keeps doing it despite knowing how abusive it is. The contrast to Lee is that he's not self-aware about the fact that he's cheating on Dee emotionally--but when called on his actions by Dee he tries to rectify them (albeit missing the real underlying issue which is that no matter how hard he tries he can't stop loving Kara).

Unless you want to convince me Lee was telling the absolute truth to Dee, in which case there is no point in 'shipping K/L at all.
You know I don't think he was telling the truth--I think he was 'genuine' in that he was trying to make it the truth, but his heart betrays him.

I don't think either of the pilots' marriages is healthy. Just to make that clear. They're just different forms of unhealthy. Lee/Dee wouldn't be any healthier without Kara around. They failed on their own terms.