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12 March 2007 @ 07:52 pm
Battlestar Galactica 3.10 The Son Also Rises  
Whoever cares the most wins
There's an interesting statement. From Law and Mind: the mythology of legal practice by Joseph Adama. I have a feeling we'll be revisiting that assertion again in the next couple of weeks. But it certainly had resonance for the content of this, the post-Kara's-death episode. Who did care the most? Can we weigh one person's love (or grief) against another's?

I know there were many fans who wanted to see the Adamas tear themselves apart in grief, and perhaps some of them will be disappointed that there wasn't more outpouring. However in a show that rushes forward headlong at the pace of Battlestar, I think we got the most we could reasonably expect. For some fans it will be too little, for some too much--grief's difficult to pitch correctly because it's so personal. For my part, I was satisfied, and very glad that what we did see was layered and complex.

Adama mourns deliberately: he takes out Kara's file and looks through it. The photo he picks up is a formal portrait of a young pilot. The file contains not just honours but disciplinary notices, and both reflect the young officer that Adama loved like a daughter. He's taken by surprise, though, by a personal card. Like Kara herself, it makes him laugh unexpectedly. And it also prompts acknowledgment of the more personal connection between them.

The photo that Lee carries is different--it's a beaming, cheeky Kara, dressed casually seated at a card table and looking like she owns it; it's the Starbuck that used to heckle him in his briefings; the friend he used to jog with; the happy, life-loving girl he fell in love with. He chose a good photo, though it's as one-dimensional as Adama's more formal view of her. It leaves so much out, but it's a good choice of photo to encapsulate Starbuck (not Kara more fully).

I thought they did a great job of making Jamie look boyish and fragile as Lee in this episode. And his performance was consistent with that impression. As he first pulls Starbuck's photo from his pocket, he looks like he's hiding, from himself as well as from all the watching eyes. He's self-conscious and nervous, his attempt to follow through on his promise to Kara interrupted. But in the fact that he can't fully look at the photo, keeping it close to his side, and in the way he eyes the board nervously, we can see that he is not ready to make this formal gesture. He's struggling with formally acknowledging her loss as much as Sam is.

Sam's grief was somewhat obviously meant to mirror that of the fans. 'My girl's too lucky to check out' giving way to a sad acknowledgment that she is, after all, gone, even if that's hard to face: I'm pretty sure that's exactly where Ron would like us all to be right now emotionally vis a vis Kara's death. While I like Sam and thought the way he grieved was very appropriate, this was probably the scene I felt most distanced from in the whole episode, because I don't think Kara is gone gone, and having a character doubt that in the text did more to make me sure of that. They protesteth too much, methinks.

Having said that, I really liked Lee's exchanges with Sam in this episode. (What?! No, not just because of the slash potential, though hey, I'm not saying I didn't think it with lines like 'let's just go and get some sleep'.) But seriously, I really appreciated the sense that these were two men who could have liked each other a great deal if they hadn't loved the same woman. In Rapture we saw their mutual admiration for each other, and Sam's definitely the sort of person who wants to put bad blood behind him. On Lee's part, I think it's more complicated. I think in many ways, being around Sam is a relief to him. It puts him in a role that he's comfortable with--the supportive, sympathetic leader, watching out for others. And Sam is able to grieve loudly and publicly in a way that Lee can't--Lee understands his need to, and at some level I think it must be cathartic for him to watch someone doing that.

So Lee's genuinely compassionate when he's called in to remove a drunken Sam from the viper deck. I loved the moment when Sam looked into Lee's eyes and lost it. Sam doesn't want a mirror right now, but that's what he gets with Lee, and Lee's eyes say Kara's gone. They work cathartically for Sam, triggering him from bravado into sorrow.

At another level that scene worked subtly to show that Lee's not coping. Sam falls, Lee's attempts to talk him down ending dramatically. He's not hurt but he could have been, which is a good lead in to what we see in the rest of the episode.

To see Lee lose focus at the squadron briefing came as no surprise. Without Starbuck, he's lost, and I was pretty damn certain we'd see that. Everyone aboard Galactica carries silent griefs inside them, and as CAG, Lee's got used to carrying his undemonstratively, so I wasn't surprised that he wasn't sobbing over noodles. Instead, he's sleepwalking through his daily tasks and doesn't even fully realise it. The fact that only two episodes ago we saw Starbuck validate Apollo's 'one is the only number you need to know' speech made his rambling about 'one running into the next' so much more poignant. And as if that wasn't embarrassing enough, he calls Racetrack Starbuck. (Oh, frak, Lee, where were you in your head?) Part of Lee's loss is a loss of direction and focus as CAG without Starbuck to riff off, to balance and challenge him. And while the looks of the other pilots are sympathetic and compassionate, it's publicly embarrassing for him to acknowledge that, let alone the other reason(s) why her loss is hitting him so hard.

Even Lee's attempt at some of his old bitchiness with his father was half-hearted. 'Maybe you should take a rest' doesn't quite carry the right punch when you're biting back tears. And having Adama decide to ground Lee as a protective measure was very very sensitive territory, given that Lee's own decision not to ground Kara led to her death. The fact that neither of them was coping at all came across starkly in their second confrontation where Adama reprimands Lee for not acting like a soldier. Lee goes into attack mode when accused of what is evident to everyone--that grief is making him unfocussed, careless and easily manipulated. The fact that he actually falls back on 'you have no idea', in his attempt to out-grieve his father shows just how far gone he is. (Aside: what does Adama think he's referring to? what does Lee think his father will think he's referring to? It really is stretching credulity that Adama has no idea...) Lee's anger here had echoes of his flip-out at Sam in Rapture when he screamed that he'd known Kara and cared for longer. Though it's ugly, I think Lee does feel that he loves Kara 'more' than Sam, that his grief is greater than his fathers. The secrecy surrounding his feelings for Kara only enhance the sense of injustice, and it becomes unbearable for Lee in grief; he's desperate for the relief that acknowledging publicly that he loved her would give him.

I think that's another reason why Sam is easy for Lee to be around right now. Sam knows and is gracious about it. He's faced that demon--he faced it when he asked his wife if she loved Lee. It's not the issue any more, because Kara's gone. Even so, Sam's admirably restrained in not trying to jostle with Lee for mourning rights.
Did Sam have a photo of Kara to put on the wall as well? Regardless, it's very telling that the show chose to end that scene with Sam staring thoughtfully at Lee's photo of Kara, placed where Kara had requested. Even in grief, there's secrecy there--for Sam wouldn't know that Kara asked Lee to place her photo there. I felt as if not just Sam but the show overall was giving Lee his 'rights' as chief mourner there.

Blink and you'd have missed it, but they actually said Zak's name in this episode! Well, Lee says it. I don't think Adama would ever have admitted on his own that Kara's death has brought up old emotions about Zak's death. But Lee's more comfortable confronting that and he hits close to home, and close to the heart of all his old issues with his father in suggesting that he's being asked to carry on in Zak's place, in Kara's place, as Adama's last precious child. Lee has his own blindness though: he feels he'll never live up to their memories, that Adama's grief for them eclipses his love for Lee. I don't think that's true, but I think that's what Lee feels is true.

Cylon love versus human love
We've seen the Cylons puzzle over love and how strange a thing it is, but we've never had such an open Cylon-human dialogue about it before. Lambkin is interesting because he 'plays' Six the same way he would any other witness in a trial. He manipulates her emotionally by appealing to her love for Gaius, and in doing so he brings to the surface the fact that Cylons and humans alike feel pain in loving. There is no qualitative difference in their love. And it cannot be weighed as 'less' than a human's (any more than it is possible to way one person's grief against another's). That's confronting stuff for most of the humans, but Lambkin has no qualms--he sees 'the machines' are alike in having their 'demons'. They're all equal before the law.

Interesting stuff, and an intriguing starting point for the episodes ahead.

Lambkin and identification
I thought Lambkin was going to be gimmicky at first--that cat?! those glasses?! But I was won over by the writing of his character, which was more interesting than I initially expected.

It's clear that Lee identifies with Lambkin's experience with his wife. Lambkin's words are: 'I thought if I could get over her, I could get over anything, I could endure, conquer, be a man, stand up to any and all punishment.' We see Lee's emotions written on his face: this is exactly what he felt when he left Kara behind on New Caprica and married Dee. But how well did he ever 'get over' Kara? Lambkin's realisation is that if he had to fight that hard not to be with her, he should be with her. Lee made a different decision prior to Kara's death. He was still very much taking the approach that strength would come from managing to live successfully without her.

Lambkin's manipulations are obvious--removing his glasses before speaking (lying) to Caprica Six about Gaius's feelings for her. Lee sees his duplicity, and yet he's still sucked in by it because there are so many reasons why Lee Adama would feel this pull right now. Lambkin claims that the law is a way of exorcising one's demons (something Lee desperately needs), and the significance of this for Lee is doubled by the fact that Lambkin says he learnt this from Lee's grandfather.

Lee: 'What I don't understand is why he put himself through so much abuse' *frowny face*
Bop: Oh, Leeeeee!! *headdesk*
(Because, er, Lee, you're pretty frakking good at putting yourself through abuse, of making yourself the 'bad guy' while holding yourself tightly to some internal code of ethics that others find absurd in its obscurity. Guess it runs in the fam.)

Serial contrarian is one of the most apt descriptions for Lee ever, and I think that call is one of the things that most sold me on Lambkin. Appropriately, we learn that Lee 'hated' the law, as well as once having wanted to follow it as a calling. He hates and loves the military. He hates and loves his father, he hated and loved Kara ... as soon as he said he hated law, it was a dead cert he was going to pursue it. Lee's a problem-solver --he worries away at things until he can make sense of them and find a clear path through, and that's never more true than when the problem is in his own mind as it is here.

If we believe Lambkin, Lee's grandfather 'defended the undefendable' in order to understand why people do what they do. That's something that's really going to hook Lee in. It offers a chance to make sense of the world. It was clear that Lambkin was still manipulating Lee here, with the existential questions he brings up, such as 'why we go to war, sacrificing our lives for lost causes?' This is all obviously targetted at Lee. And he ends with 'why we forgive, defying logic'. Again, this has resonance with what Lee has to 'work through' about Kara. He forgave her, his love for her defying his logical, rational nature. He talks about working with the damaged and the flawed, about wanting to know why we're all flawed: this is what will appeal to Lee about this journey. He needs to solve the problem of his own flaws and find compassion for others.

How far should we trust Lambkin? Not very far, I suspect. Yet, like Lee, I found myself sucked in despite my suspicions. He proves himself genuinely insightful with the objects that he steals from others, objects that tell him something about the owner. He provides insight into Adama that Lee was unable to see: that his father isn't feeling very soldierly himself right now. The fact that what Lambkin would have stolen from Lee is Kara's photo tells us what we've already seen--that he's using Lee's grief at Kara's death as his way 'in' to Lee's psyche. It's a detail that Lambkin can use. Even his compassion may be a manipulation, but I liked it anyway. He says, 'you've had enough stolen from you already'. These are very healing words for Lee, whose feeling like his own grief has been stolen from him by others, even though he can only kick himself for that.

Looking ahead
The final reveal was a great touch--we see how Lee plays into Lambkin's overall plan for Baltar's trial. And I am REALLY looking forward to this now, tangled and strange as it will no doubt be. It's going to be an intimate affair with Adama as judge, Lee on the Defence team and Roslin watching over the outcome. But I can deal with the improbability of that since it reflects a major problem for the fleet: the key players do all know one another and the personal and the political are entangled. This is reflected in Caprica and Gaius's relationship as well, so I'll be really interested to see how that has bearing on the trial.

Other random reflections
For a moment I thought that wisteria_'s poll suggestion that Kara may be reincarnated as a kitten to haunt Galactica had come to pass. Actually, a cat with nine lives is a pretty good metaphor for Kara. A cat that's an escape artist, that leads to the lucky timely discovery of a bomb--yup, very Kara-like. Lambkin refers to the cat as being his wife's and jokes about it not biting and scratching like she did. With Lee identifying so heavily with Lambkin's relationship, that connection's a bit hard not to miss. *giggle* I kind of enjoyed this absurdist light relief.

I love that Roslin is so determined to have a rigorous fair trial to the point where she apologises to Lee for the delay in receiving the files, even though Lee himself appeared ridiculously distracted. And I really hope Laura gives Lee a nice cup of tea and a chat when he goes to return her glasses. Though I guess presidents have more important thing to do.

Poor Helo, once again getting promoted and then demoted. But now he's CAG, for a while at least!

Poor Dee, having to wire through her husband's (second) demotion from CAG, wondering what the hell is going on. She wasn't really in this episode. Guess it was easier for them not to tackle what's going on in their marriage yet. (Let's hope 'yet' is the appropriate word.)
 
 
Current Location: sofa of even-more comfiness
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wisteria: bsg - kara/lee - fieldwisteria_ on March 12th, 2007 01:31 pm (UTC)
Sam is able to grieve loudly and publicly in a way that Lee can't--Lee understands his need to, and at some level I think it must be cathartic for him to watch someone doing that.

Don't have time to elaborate, but I'm really glad you mentioned that. When I was toying with a post-"Maelstrom" Lee fic, I'd had something like this in my notes: "Hates that he feels jealous of Sam for being able to openly mourn. Lee doesn't have the *right* to mourn her as a lover. It has to be couched in so many other explanations, both for his wife's sake and for his own sake as a leader. Sam gets to play the grieving widower. Lee doesn't have anything tangible or formal to which to attach his grief -- except as her CAG and friend, both of which feel woefully inadequate."

Okay, maybe not quite that florid, but hey. ;) I'm glad that the episode touched on that, though. Even without his own usual emotional reticence, Lee really is hemmed in by obligation. However he chooses to grieve will be noticed by others, and it would affect his father, his wife, his pilots, and so on. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but that's why his "You have NO idea!" was so tragic. Adama might understand (if not be thrilled) that his son was in love with Kara, but hearing it from Lee would still open up a whole new set of complications and grief.

(Gah! Must go! Lovely post! Thanks for sharing!)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on March 12th, 2007 09:02 pm (UTC)
Thanks for commenting! Yes, I completely agree--I'm glad this episode explored that on Lee's part, the way he feels trapped and unable to fully express his grief. Contrasting him to Sam was a good way of showing that.

The 'You have NO idea!' line tore at my heart. It was incredibly ouchy and raw and showed just how close to losing it Lee was. That's a world of complex, tangled, hidden pain to carry... on top of the world of complex, tangled, hidden pain he was, er, already carrying. *headdesk*
The First Evil: Lee - close-up - syliasyliasyliaasta77 on March 12th, 2007 03:35 pm (UTC)
While I like Sam and thought the way he grieved was very appropriate, this was probably the scene I felt most distanced from in the whole episode, because I don't think Kara is gone gone, and having a character doubt that in the text did more to make me sure of that.

Yeah, Sam's questioning her death was like a big flashing light that we hadn't seen the last of Kara. As did removing Katee's name from the credits, but not editing the footage to maintain the proper pace at which the names pop up. It basically made it easier to put her name back in.

Sam is able to grieve loudly and publicly in a way that Lee can't--Lee understands his need to, and at some level I think it must be cathartic for him to watch someone doing that.

Lee certainly seem to understand and sympathize with Sam far more than I would have suspected prior to seeing Lee try to get Sam down from the viper. It's not in Lee's nature to make quite such an emotional display, but there is no question that he was feeling internally what Sam was demonstrating externally and I think it did Lee good to see someone else express so much pain at Kara's loss when so many others seemed to have just moved on.

I loved the moment when Sam looked into Lee's eyes and lost it. Sam doesn't want a mirror right now, but that's what he gets with Lee, and Lee's eyes say Kara's gone.

Hadn't thought about it, but good onbservation. When Sam sees Lee and Lee's pain it is the moment of acceptance for Sam.

It's clear that Lee identifies with Lambkin's experience with his wife. Lambkin's words are: 'I thought if I could get over her, I could get over anything, I could endure, conquer, be a man, stand up to any and all punishment.' We see Lee's emotions written on his face: this is exactly what he felt when he left Kara behind on New Caprica and married Dee. But how well did he ever 'get over' Kara? Lambkin's realisation is that if he had to fight that hard not to be with her, he should be with her. Lee made a different decision prior to Kara's death. He was still very much taking the approach that strength would come from managing to live successfully without her.

My reaction to that scene was Lee identifying with Lampkins words because of Kara's death and not because of leaving Kara behind, first on New Caprica, and then more recently as he chose to work on his marriage. Lee's lost right now, unfocused, and he isn't seeing a way to get past Kara's death, but Lampkin, in that moment, gives him some glimmer of hope. Lee has always wanted to be a strong person, a good man, and he feels that he has failed at both. He's now seeing that he could take his pain and regret, learn from it and draw strength from it, and perhaps there is a way to go on without her and become the person he wants to be.

If we believe Lambkin, Lee's grandfather 'defended the undefendable' in order to understand why people do what they do. That's something that's really going to hook Lee in. It offers a chance to make sense of the world.

As much as Lee may despise Baltar and what he has done, I get the sense that Lee is desperate to know why Baltar is the man he is. It's just like Lee wants to know how Helo can love a Cylon. Or his father and Roslin can order the assasination of Cain. He's never understood how the people closest to him can act as they do, so maybe if he can delve into Baltar's psyche, make sense of him, see why he believes he did nothing wrong, then he can make some sort of peace with the others in his life as well as himself.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on March 12th, 2007 09:11 pm (UTC)
As did removing Katee's name from the credits, but not editing the footage to maintain the proper pace at which the names pop up.
HAHAHA! I didn't pick that up! I can't believe I didn't pick that up! *rotfl* That's kinda hilarious.

Lampkin, in that moment, gives him some glimmer of hope. Lee has always wanted to be a strong person, a good man, and he feels that he has failed at both. He's now seeing that he could take his pain and regret, learn from it and draw strength from it, and perhaps there is a way to go on without her and become the person he wants to be.
Hmm. I'm not sure. That's the way I initially read that scene as well, but something pinged oddly about it, didn't quite work for me, and then I went back and rewatched and wasn't sure that Lee had quite reached that point yet. I think that first scene is one of raw identification, without much analysis. And you're probably right that this is what the show wanted us to glean from that scene, but I think it's a bit too fast. I think he's working towards that point though--because later on he asks if the story is true (forgot to flesh that out in response above), and I think that really signals that he's attached on to Lampkin's story as one of hope/salvation for himself.

Still, I keep coming back to the fact that Lee's response to Kara's death is a continuation of what he was already trying to achieve: to be strong, to endure, to be a good man. I like this, because it means he hasn't been forced out of character by her death.

He's never understood how the people closest to him can act as they do, so maybe if he can delve into Baltar's psyche, make sense of him, see why he believes he did nothing wrong, then he can make some sort of peace with the others in his life as well as himself.
Definitely! Interesting that we've seen them paralleled already in, er, what was that episode that everyone hated? But yes, I completely agree.

I hope I get to read your posts before I get exiled have to go to my work conference, but if not I'll be replying later in the week.
(no subject) - bloodygoodgirl on March 12th, 2007 07:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on March 12th, 2007 09:13 pm (UTC)
I know! I'd want to smack Lee upside the head too if I didn't want to hug him so bad. :-D *pets Lee* He's all confuzzled right now (er, always). I hope he clues to Lampkin a bit more by the end of the season, but I'm ok with watching this play out like this right now because it's good drama.
dianora: bsg lee kara trappeddianora2 on March 13th, 2007 01:29 am (UTC)
Great post, as always. :)

It puts him in a role that he's comfortable with--the supportive, sympathetic leader, watching out for others.

And yet, it makes me sad that he has to do that, because everyone expects him. He's not allowed to grieve openly, not just because most people don't know the true depths of his and Kara's relationships, but because he's Apollo. He's not supposed to break. It made me angry on his behalf, that he's hemmed in that way. Just another reason for him to be contrary, I suppose. ;)

I loved the moment when Sam looked into Lee's eyes and lost it.

Yes! I loved Sam's reaction to seeing his own pain reflected back at him. That was a wonderful, painful moment, I thought.

If we believe Lambkin, Lee's grandfather 'defended the undefendable' in order to understand why people do what they do. That's something that's really going to hook Lee in. It offers a chance to make sense of the world.

Yes. It also plays into his sense of justice -- we know that Lee truly does believe that Gaius deserves a fair trial because that is what is right, and just. Whereas I don't quite believe it when Laura or Bill say it. ;)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee thinking hmmbop_radar on March 15th, 2007 09:22 am (UTC)
Thank you! I'm glad to hear from someone who is also sympathetic to Lee's condition. It's true that his role as Apollo limits him. I think he was at the most emotional he could possibly be and still (just) hold that role, but the cracks are really showing--it's just so hard.

we know that Lee truly does believe that Gaius deserves a fair trial because that is what is right, and just. Whereas I don't quite believe it when Laura or Bill say it. ;)
Hee! Yes, I'm with you. Lee really may be the only one of them that truly wants a fair trial. We already know Laura and Bill have conflicted feelings on this.
indigo419: Lee bereft UB by syliasyliasyliaindigo419 on March 13th, 2007 02:22 am (UTC)
Lee's anger here had echoes of his flip-out at Sam in Rapture when he screamed that he'd known Kara and cared for longer.

Ooh, good catch. You and wisteria_ already pointed out that Sam - and Adama - are allowed to grieve openly and publicly, whereas Lee only has official claim to Kara as a friend and colleague. Plus, he has to uphold propriety, as Dee's husband and as a public figure (the CAG, the Commander's son). I thought Jamie was awesome in this ep, and I'm rather frustrated with reactions I've been seeing calling him (Lee) whiny or worse, a bad actor (Jamie).

I'm okay with not seeing Dee's reaction in this ep. I think there will be more fallout later.

Lovely insights you have here! :0)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Lee Apollobop_radar on March 15th, 2007 09:25 am (UTC)
I thought Jamie was awesome in this ep, and I'm rather frustrated with reactions I've been seeing calling him (Lee) whiny or worse, a bad actor (Jamie).
Sheesh! *throws up hands in despair* People were saying that?! Grrr. I thought he really shone in this episode--one of his better ones, and I guess I'm grateful now for having been away at a work conference most of this week and therefore having missed a lot of the response posts to the eps. Sometimes fandom just frustrates me! I'm so happy with Jamie's performance as Lee.
latteaddict: Not Dreaming [UB]latteaddict on March 18th, 2007 10:41 am (UTC)
I came across your post via galacticanews and I'm so glad I did!

I thoroughly enjoyed your thoughts about this episode. The transition into Baltar's trial was interesting but I admit that my main interest was held by the different ways Lee, Sam and Adama grieved. The parallels you draw are rather insightful. Particularly your comments about Lee's reaction to Romo's story about his wife. I thought the show was trying to make a more immediate connection to Lee being able to get over Kara's death, but the scene never sat right with me either. Out of the three men, it looked to me like Lee was coping the least. So reading you interpretation about Lee already trying to let Kara go after New Caprica made so much more sense to me.

I admit that I came into TSAR with a fairly grim expectation of how Lee would react to Kara's death. The show has really tried so very, very hard since Taking a Break to prove that Lee has finally left Kara behind. I guess I wasn't softened much by Lee's sudden support and interest in Kara during Maelstrom. I felt their chat under the Viper and Lee's triple-firm declaration as to the strength of his marriage and also the banter in the memorial hall (which was not happy teasing but actual truth encased in banter, re: you're a raving lunatic - and you're a bastard) was just more nails in Kara's coffin. I got the feeling that Kara was looking to Lee for a reason to hang on, stay in the here and now. Lee practically pushed her out the hatch. Of course Lee didn't do it with malice and he truly thought he was being the best supportive friend and CAG he could be, but Kara needed more than that. I suppose it could be looked at the other way that Lee actually gave her the support and strength to follow her destiny (to die).

Yeah, so despite my reservations coming into TSAR, I was so pleasantly surprised that we got what we got. Sam grieved in a perfect way and Adama's grief was very much in character. But Lee exceeded my expectations. I had it in my head that I needed Lee to grieve for Kara in a more demonstrative way than when he cried and stumbled because Dee had threatened to leave him. I figured Kara's death deserved more emotion than Lee's sobfest over losing his wedding ring. So the way it actually played out was much more than I hoped for. Lee's grief was palpable. Kara was standing right next to him in every scene and I loved every minute of it. This episode actually made me enjoy Lee's character again. It's too bad that it took losing Kara for that to happen, but if Kara's death ends up being Ron Moore's rabbit-hat-trick, then it's a win win situation.

er, sorry for the long ramble. I guess your excellent post was very inspiring!
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Leebop_radar on March 19th, 2007 01:00 am (UTC)
reading you interpretation about Lee already trying to let Kara go after New Caprica made so much more sense to me.
Thanks! You may have seen above that I mentioned to asta77 that I couldn't make sense of that scene initially--I think because I first assumed that they were going for the more immediate connection. But I really feel that Romo's story fits far better with Lee's attempt to get over Kara while she was still alive. And sure, he's clutching at any piece of hope that there's an end to grief right now... but I think what he really connects with in Romo's story is the sense of fighting for so long to survive and 'get over' someone.

just more nails in Kara's coffin. I got the feeling that Kara was looking to Lee for a reason to hang on, stay in the here and now. Lee practically pushed her out the hatch
I smiled at this! I love Kara fans! Here, you sound like my best friend. She's very, VERY good at explaining to me how Lee gets it 'wrong' for Kara. I'm trapped in Lee point-of-view, I'm afraid, so I desperately need Kara fans to point these things out. ;-) My friend hasn't watched the ep yet, but I'm sure she'll feel the same way.

it could be looked at the other way that Lee actually gave her the support and strength to follow her destiny (to die)
It could, especially if her death leads to some greater good (I'm unspoiled--just guessing), and I explored this from Lee's angle post-Maelstrom. Because from his perspective he's going to feel incredibly guilty. I think the conversation on the hangar deck was a real achievement in his own mind: in his mind, he's finally being a) the perfect supportive CAG, b) the perfect supportive friend and c) doing his best not to complicate the moment with unwanted emotional baggage. He is, I believe, genuinely puzzled by Kara's line about them 'never being more than this now'. Because he still thinks that wasn't that big a deal to her. (I know, I know, you want to throttle him! *g*) And that these actions of his, the 'best' he could give her, led to her death is going to tear him up inside--little wonder he's adrift emotionally now.

Perhaps I had less reservations coming into TSAR because for me the brief scene between them in A Day in The Life was very significant. Though it was another instance of the writing team expecting us to accept a huge leap forward in their relationship, I found it very encouraging to see Kara good-humouredly supporting Lee's authority. Lee was glowy from her implied praise, and I think that was significant in explaining the confidence with which he took the approach he did in Maelstrom.

I figured Kara's death deserved more emotion than Lee's sobfest over losing his wedding ring. So the way it actually played out was much more than I hoped for. Lee's grief was palpable. Kara was standing right next to him in every scene and I loved every minute of it.
Heee. *grinz* You're spot on in saying that Kara was beside him in every scene in this episode--I adored Jamie's performance--he was so vulnerable and raw. Lee's messy sobfest is so different it's hard to compare them--there was catharsis (if daftly) in that for Lee--those were emotions which he got out and resolved. They shocked him into realisation, but they were limited in scope and really framed around one distinct moment of catharsis. But grief on this level is sooo different. I thought they did a great job of showing that there is no catharsis for Lee and that his grief permeates his entire life--professional, personal, spiritual.

I'm sorry you haven't been enjoying him. I sympathise with fan's frustrations with him, even if I personally don't have the same issues. Thanks for stumbling in and commenting! Good to meet you! :-)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee dreamybop_radar on March 19th, 2007 01:03 am (UTC)
PS. May I friend you? :-)
latteaddict: Broken (Lee)latteaddict on March 19th, 2007 02:40 am (UTC)
Wonderful! I've friended you back. I admit that the majority of my f/list is unapologetic Kara fangirls (like myself), but I think it will be good for me to have a few more Lee supporters to help me understand his character and motivations. Just don't judge me for my dislike of Dualla. A gun to my head won't make me change my mind about her :)
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Kara/Lee collapsedbop_radar on March 19th, 2007 03:56 am (UTC)
Heee. Well as I've said, I definitely need the Kara fangirls to explain me her. :-p And I'm used to being beaten up enlighted by my best friend on such matters. Since she's taking a break from the fandom at the moment, I'm rather unbalanced, so I'm sure it will be good for me. :-)

I didn't like Dualla to begin with either. I still think the writers did a terrible job with that relationship, and she'll never be a favourite of mine, even if I managed to find some zen about her. However your point has been noted: I won't attempt any Dee-brainwashing! ;-)